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Author Topic: Pastor Terry Jones plans to burn multiple copies of the Koran on 9-11 anniversary
TomDavidson
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quote:
At least, this guy has done and said nothing to convince me otherwise.
What have you heard him say?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye:
2) So...is this supposed to be a MUSLIM YMCA? A YMMA? So we want to get Somalis moderates with Hamas radicals and Nation of Islam types all mixing together? How...sweet...

More like moderate muslims hanging out with non-muslims. I can't see radical fundies hanging out at a co-ed swimming pool, or worshipping in a prayer room that doesn't segregate men from women.
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flydye
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That is your interpretation. I'm sure Muslims are very happy to have more people in their mosque...just as my Pastor is happy to do 'community outreach' to, well, anyone.

That said, considering how the radicals spent their last days before flying the airplanes which made this who center possible (Hint: it wasn't prayer and fasting), my imagination easily extends to them spending time with their co-religionists, either for intelligence or helping show them 'the one true way'. Fellow Muslims are a far more fertile field for peddling their garbage then say Ricky.

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mostafa
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quote:
Burn a few qurans, challenge a few mosques draw a few pictures of Mohammed and challenge them when the complain.
You always accuse Islam of Nonsense without knowing the Islam and the prophet Mohammed. How can you judge anything without reading?

The prophet Mohammed<PBUH> put many rules for Muslims during fighting the enemies in the battles:
1-Don’t kill the Children.
2- Don’t kill the women.
3- Don’t kill the old people.
4-Leave the monks in their hermitage.
5-Don’t destroy any building.
6-Don’t sacrifice the goats or the ships except for eating them.
I see El-Qaeda did not follow those rules so I admit they are wrong
Allah says in the holy Quran:
''190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors''.


Muslims shouldn’t begin with killing but they should defend themselves and their religion and kill the enemies who were killing Muslims.


'' And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God seeks thy protection, [10] grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure: [11] this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth]''. –

In the Bible in the the Book of Ezekiel :
Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
[9<5>]

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. [The book of Hosea 13-16]

You are so angry of what Al-Qaeda did. We also should be angry of what you did and do:

1- Your conquests.
2-killing Muslims without reasons.
3-publishing the hostile caricatures of the prophet Mohammed <Peace Be Upon Him>.
This pastor has no the right to burn the Holy Quran.
We have the ability to publish hostile caricatures of your religious symbols but we have no right to do that as Allah says in the holy Quran:
''34. Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!'
'

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mostafa
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone is born Muslim according to Muhammad

. The prophet is really right. Ask your priests
Why do they draw the Crucifix in your body and hands?
As you were born Muslims and they know that truth
but don't want you to be Muslim.
We [Muslims] don't draw any mark to show the people that we are Muslims as we are Confident that we were born Muslims

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Ask your priests
Why do they draw the Crucifix in your body and hands?
As you were born Muslims and they know that truth
but don't want you to be Muslim.

*grin* I can guarantee you, Mostafa, that there is no priest on Earth who will give you that answer. Have you asked a non-Muslim clergyman that question?

quote:
1- Your conquests.
2-killing Muslims without reasons.
3-publishing the hostile caricatures of the prophet Mohammed <Peace Be Upon Him>.
This pastor has no the right to burn the Holy Quran.

In our culture, Mostafa, burning something in protest -- or drawing unflattering caricatures of someone -- is another form of speech, and is protected and respected as such. When Arabs burn American flags, do you think Americans care? Are we driven to madness and murder by the sight? No.

I have the right to not believe in Islam. Moreover, I have the right to mock Islam and its prophets. To suggest otherwise is to deny the possibility of a world in which people are free to disagree about the unanswerable questions (like, for example, "does God exist, and which religion has it right?") And as the Western world has learned, and as the Arab world is slowly learning, permitting that sort of disagreement is absolutely vital to any society that truly intends to embrace liberty.

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Mynnion
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Mostafa-You have expressed issues with the radical members of Islam and condemn the West for lumping all of Islam together but then blame the West for the acts of a small number of individuals. Why two sets of standards?

The vast majority of Westerners do not believe in purposely insulting others but as Tom said above we believe that individuals have the right to express themselves even when the majority feel their actions are wrong. This is part of living in a free society.

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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
This pastor has no the right to burn the Holy Quran.

is this true of all books, some books or just the Quran?

Or is it simply that any action meant to be insulting is evil, and as such must be "repelled" by the practice of virtuous actions?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone is born Muslim according to Muhammad

. The prophet is really right. Ask your priests
Why do they draw the Crucifix in your body and hands?
As you were born Muslims and they know that truth
but don't want you to be Muslim.

They don't. I have no idea what Christian sect, if any, your question applies to. I suspect that you're misinformed about Christianity, as your prophet, (PBUH) was misinformed when he assumed that the Virgin Mary was a member of the Godhead.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone is born Muslim according to Muhammad

. The prophet is really right. Ask your priests
Why do they draw the Crucifix in your body and hands?
As you were born Muslims and they know that truth
but don't want you to be Muslim.
We [Muslims] don't draw any mark to show the people that we are Muslims as we are Confident that we were born Muslims

Mostafa most American Christians aren't Catholic or Orthodox, most of them don't have preists. THey have ministers who are more teachers of The Bible than holy men.

Many, probably most, American Christians are not baptized as infants, only later in life when they choose to do so.

You obviously know your own country and faith very well, but there are many things you are wrong about about Christianity and the US.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Many, probably most, American Christians are not baptized as infants...
Well, to be fair, I'd imagine a slim majority of American Christians are baptized as infants. But I'm pretty sure it's not to drive out their inherent Muslim-ness.
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Pete at Home
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"Drawing a crucifix in your body and hands" is supposed to be a reference to Catholic infant baptism?
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Viking_Longship
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Pete,
That's what I would presume.

Tom, it might be a slim majority, but with evangllicalism being on the rise I don't expect it to remain so.

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flydye
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You are all incorrect, and in this ONE instance, Mostafa is arguing in better knowledge then you are.

In Egypt, the Coptic Christian sect still exists as a persecuted minority religion. They were there before Islam spread into Egypt.

They are afforded all the 'protections' of dhimmi religion: The government requires them to get waivers to fix or repair any of their sacred buildings which are not forthcoming absent large bribes. They re forbidden from building any new Churches, no matter the need. Young 'virtuous' Muslim toughs frequently have a bit of Kristallnacht on the businesses and storefronts of Copts. The Copts still eat pork and so the government is foursquare taking their property by getting rid of their pigs.

As a result, in defense of their identity, it is a relatively common practice for Copts to tattoo their faith upon their body. I knew a Copt who had a cross tattooed on his hand and I've seen pictures of other Copts doing the similar things.


web page

[ September 13, 2010, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: flydye ]

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TomDavidson
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Ah! Thanks, fly! I had no idea he was talking about tattoos.
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flydye
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From Wiki: Persecution of the Copts

quote:
Islamic era
[edit] The Arab-Muslim conquest of Egypt
The Muslim conquest of Egypt took place in AD 639. Despite the political upheaval, Egypt remained a mainly Christian land, although the gradual conversions to Islam over the centuries changed Egypt from a mainly Christian to a mainly Muslim country by the end of the 12th century.[18]

This process was sped along by persecutions during and following the reign of the Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah (reigned AD 996–1021) and the Crusades, and also by the acceptance of Arabic as a liturgical language by the Pope of Alexandria Gabriel ibn-Turaik.[18]

During Islamic rule, the Copts needed to pay a special tax on non-Muslims called the jizya in order to be defended by Muslim armies, as non-Muslims were not allowed to serve in the army. This tax was abolished in 1855.

Modern era
In Egypt the government does not officially recognize conversions from Islam to Christianity; also certain interfaith marriages are not allowed either, this prevents marriages between converts to Christianity and those born in Christian communities, and also results in the children of Christian converts being classified as Muslims and given a Muslim education.

The government also requires permits for repairing churches or building new ones, which are often withheld. Foreign missionaries are allowed in the country only if they restrict their activities to social improvements and refrain from proselytizing.

Sectarian attacks since 1970
The last quarter of the twentieth century and the first decade of the twenty first have seen a deterioration in relations between Muslims and the Coptic minority in Egypt. This is seen in day-to-day interactions such as the insulting of Coptic priests by Muslim children, (In America, we call these hate crimes and Muslims whine if and when they are insulted.) but also in much more serious events such as attacks on Coptic churches, monasteries, villages, homes and shops, particularly in Upper Egypt during the 1980 and 90s. From 1992 to 1998 Islamist extremists in Egypt are thought to have killed 127 Copts.[19]

By the end of the 1990s, in Minya province "an ancient center of the Coptic faith", five churches, two charity organizations, and 38 mostly Christian-owned businesses had been burned. Witnesses described the destruction as having been carried out "by gangs of young Muslims wielding iron bars and Molotov cocktails and shouting `God is Great!`"[20] The police have been accused of siding with the attackers in some of these cases.[21]. And in Southern Egypt, there were problems in which involves terrorists going into monasteries, harassing, capturing, and torturing monks (such as the 2008 attacks on the monks of the Monastery of Saint Fana). (So much for the Prophet...)

Some observers have connected the robberies, extortion and "collection" of "taxes" from Copts to the belief by Islamists that the traditional Jizya poll tax on non-Muslims should be reinstituted. Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur expressed this belief in a 1997 interview. He also stated that while `we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly [national legislature] ... the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country," and Christians can not be trusted to fight for Egypt against Christian foreigners.[22]

With his freeing members of the Muslim brotherhood, persecution of the Copts only increased. [23], statements by Muslim Brotherhood and Sadat further exacerbated the situation of non-Muslims (namely the Copts). [24]

In 1981, President Anwar Sadat, internally exiled the Coptic Pope Shenouda III accusing him of fomenting interconfessional strife. Sadat then chose five Coptic bishops and asked them to choose a new pope. They refused, and in 1985 President Hosni Mubarak restored Pope Shenouda III.

In May 2010, The Wall Street Journal reported increasing "waves of mob assaults" by Muslims against Copts, forcing many Christians to flee their homes.[15] Despite frantic calls for help, the police typically arrived after the violence was over.[15] The police also coerced the Copts to accept "reconciliation" with their attackers to avoid prosecuting them, with no Muslims convicted for any of the attacks.[15]


6 November 1972
Muslim mob attack and burn a prayer meeting by Egyptian Christian Copts at the Holy Scripture College, an attack which preceded the infamous Khanka attacks on the Copts.[25]


June 1981
81 Copts were killed by a mob of Muslims. Interior Minister Abu Pasha blamed the deaths on a lack of adequate security measures for which his predecessor Ennabawy Ismael was responsible (according to Abu Pasha). [25]


17 November 1981
Coptic priest the Reverend Maximose Guirguis is kidnapped and threatened with death he does not denounce his Christianity and publicly convert to Islam. He refuses and his throat is cut leaving him bleeding to death.[25]


20 September 1991
Muslim mob attacks Copts in Embaba, an outer suburb of Cairo.[25]


9 March 1992
Manshiet Nasser, Dyroot, Upper Egypt. Copt son of a farmer Badr Abdullah Massoud is gunned down after refusing to pay a tax of about $166 to the local leader of Islamic Group. Massoud's body is then hacked "with knives."[26]


4 May 1992
Villages of Manshia and Weesa in Dyroot, Upper Egypt. After being Manshiet Naser's Christians for weeks, an Islamic extremist methodically shoots 13 of them to death. Victims included ten farmers and a child tending their fields, a doctor leaving his home for work, and an elementary school teacher giving a class.[26]


12 May 1992
A bloodshed in Manfaloot, Upper Egypt, on the Coptic Easter day with 6 Copts murdered and 50 injured, followed by some 200 arrests.[25]


15 & 16 October 1992
Muslim mob attacks with burning and looting of shops and 42 houses owned by Christian Copts, with 3 Copts injured and the destruction of an estimated 5 Million pounds of property, live stock, merchandise and work places Kafr Demian in Sharqueyya in the Nile Delta.[25]


2 December 1992
Muslim mob attacks Copts in the city of Assiut, Upper Egypt.[25]


December 1992
Muslim mob attacks Copts in the Village of Meer, Al Quosseya, Upper Egypt, murdering four Copts and slitting the throat of a Coptic jeweller for refusing to pay protection money.[25]


13 March 1997
Muslim mob attacks a Tourist Train with Spanish Tourists, killing 13 Christians and injuring 6, in the Village of Nakhla near Nagge Hammadi.

The terrorists increased the frequency of their attacks and widened it to include whom the viewed as collaborators with the security force, launching an attack on the eve of the Adha Eid using automatic weapons killing Copts as well as Muslims.[25]


1997
Abu Qurqas. "Three masked terrorist" entered St. George Church in Abu Qurqas and shoot dead eight Copts at a weekly youth group meeting. "As the attackers fled, they gunned down a Christian farmer watering his fields." [27]


January 2000
Al Kosheh, a "predominently Christian town" in southern Egypt. After a Muslim customer and a Christian shoe-store owner fall into an argument, three days of rioting and street fighting erupt leaving 20 Christians, (including four children) and one Muslim dead." In the aftermath 38 Muslim defendants are charged with murder in connection with the deaths of the 20 Copts. But all are acquitted of murder charges, and only four are convicting of any (lesser) charges, with the longest sentence given being 10 years." After protest by the Coptic Pope Shenouda the government granted a new trial. [28]


19 November 2000
Muslim mob attempt to force a Copt to pronounce the Islamic faith declarations (Shehadas) then beat him to death when he refuses their demand.[25]


19 April 2009
A group of Muslims (Mahmoud Hussein Mohamed (26 years old), Mohamed Abdel Kader (32 years old), Ramadan Fawzy Mohamed (24 years old), Ahmed Mohamed Saeed (16 years old), and Abu Bakr Mohamed Saeed ) opened fire at Christians on Easter's Eve killing two (Hedra Adib (22 years old), and Amir Estafanos (26 years old)) and injuring another (Mina Samir (25 years old)). This event was in Hegaza village, Koos city. On 22 February 2010, they were sentenced to 25 years of jail while crimes of this level in Egypt should face death penalty. [29] [30]


6 January 2010
Main article: Nag Hammadi massacre
Machine gun attack by Muslim mob on Coptic Christians celebrating the Egyptian birth of Christ. Seven are killed (including a Muslim officer in his trial to defend them) and scores injured, and lots of lives ruined.


April/May 2010
In Marsa Matrouh, a mob of 3,000 Muslims attacked the city's Coptic Christian population, with 400 Copts having to barricade themselves in their church while the mob destroyed 18 homes, 23 shops and 16 cars.[15]


Meanwhile, a few teenagers say some nasty things to a couple muslim kids, a brick is thrown, a bubba burns some construction equipment, a Koran is threatened to be burned, and some of you have the absolute gall to call that harassment.

Sorry, still not seeing the 'shadow of fear' because even Conservatives are not exactly on his side. (We DO point out the hypocrisy of demanding sensitivity from the Pastor and not the Imam, however)

Mostafa. Peace be upon you. But how about you put some Peace upon the People of the Book in your own country!

[ September 13, 2010, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: flydye ]

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RickyB
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"Meanwhile, a few teenagers say some nasty things to a couple muslim kids, a brick is thrown, a bubba burns some construction equipment, a Koran is threatened to be burned, and some of you have the absolute gall to call that harassment."

Yup, imagine that. We think we're better than Egypt in this regard, and have much higher standards for ourselves. What is done to the Copts in Egypt is repugnant, and would have been flat out unconstitutional in the US. There is no grounds for comparison. I am surprised that someone with your intellect could be so strenuously advancing the "look, the scum of the earth are so much worse than we are!" argument.

"(We DO point out the hypocrisy of demanding sensitivity from the Pastor and not the Imam, however)"

Again, comparison invalid. Opening a progressive, inclusive community center for a community that does actually exist in the area is not akin to going out of your way to burn Quran's. Asking someone to refrain from a pointless symbolic gesture is not the same as asking someone to ban himself from a certain radius of some location.

And just to make this perfectly clear once again - if not for the fact that we had troops in Islamic countries and pursuant geo-political considerations, I'd say let him burn and let civilized Muslims and other people alike shrug at the imbecile and maybe throw some peanuts and bananas. Cause in our country, he can burn the book you care about and you may not do anything to him for it (except maybe burn his book back or something...). I piss on threats of violence from Muslims in America. If you're in America, behave like it. Sadly, the case at hand is more complicated.

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Pete at Home
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Ah. Thanks, Flye. I have a coptic Egyptian client, and I'll have to ask her about that. I do recall that she does have a cross tattoo on the hand. So when Mostafa says everyone is born Muslim, he's construing Egypt's routine persecution of Christians, and the Coptic attempt to protect themselves from such, as some sort of transcendent spiritual truth?

quote:
Originally posted by flydye:
You are all incorrect, and in this ONE instance, Mostafa is arguing in better knowledge then you are.

In Egypt, the Coptic Christian sect still exists as a persecuted minority religion. They were there before Islam spread into Egypt.

They are afforded all the 'protections' of dhimmi religion: The government requires them to get waivers to fix or repair any of their sacred buildings which are not forthcoming absent large bribes. They re forbidden from building any new Churches, no matter the need. Young 'virtuous' Muslim toughs frequently have a bit of Kristallnacht on the businesses and storefronts of Copts. The Copts still eat pork and so the government is foursquare taking their property by getting rid of their pigs.

As a result, in defense of their identity, it is a relatively common practice for Copts to tattoo their faith upon their body. I knew a Copt who had a cross tattooed on his hand and I've seen pictures of other Copts doing the similar things.


web page


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flydye
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Yup, imagine that. We think we're better than Egypt in this regard, and have much higher standards for ourselves. What is done to the Copts in Egypt is repugnant, and would have been flat out unconstitutional in the US. There is no grounds for comparison. I am surprised that someone with your intellect could be so strenuously advancing the "look, the scum of the earth are so much worse than we are!" argument.


And just to make this perfectly clear once again - if not for the fact that we had troops in Islamic countries and pursuant geo-political considerations, I'd say let him burn and let civilized Muslims and other people alike shrug at the imbecile and maybe throw some peanuts and bananas. Cause in our country, he can burn the book you care about and you may not do anything to him for it (except maybe burn his book back or something...). I piss on threats of violence from Muslims in America. If you're in America, behave like it. Sadly, the case at hand is more complicated.

One, I KNOW I'm better then them. I am arguing against you trying to gin up isolated instances of a handful of Americans behaving badly into some equivilence of what happens over there.

Second, shrug. You would like it to be not equivilent. His stated purpose is now void and now he's reduced to threats. "Oh, the Arab street is going to go NUTS! Booga booga." Sure they are. He failed to build bridges and hurt his cause.

Third: I agree. Islam needs to be mocked more, not less.

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Mynnion
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I am still curious-If the paster had gone through with his threat and murder an mayhem had occurred can he be held legally accountable for the fall-out?

He was informed by numerous individuals that his action was likely to trigger a violent reaction. He he guilty of a crime? Could civil charges be brought against him?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
I am still curious-If the paster had gone through with his threat and murder an mayhem had occurred can he be held legally accountable for the fall-out?

He was informed by numerous individuals that his action was likely to trigger a violent reaction. He he guilty of a crime? Could civil charges be brought against him?

No. Not unless he conspired with Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or adhered to some other group with which we are at war, with intent of giving them aid, e.g. with boosting their recruiting.
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Mynnion
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No reckless endangerment or the like?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
No reckless endangerment or the like?

Absolutely not. Under the common law, this is as clear a case of superseding cause as one could find. And that's without even taking the 1st Amendment into consideration.

[ September 13, 2010, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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flydye
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I would say no. If I called a minority a slur and he shot at me and wounded someone else, maybe.

If some yak herder in Pakistan decides to cause a riot, killing several of his co-religionists, how exactly is there a direct link?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye:
I would say no. If I called a minority a slur and he shot at me and wounded someone else, maybe.

If you were a peace officer, or had some other duty to refrain, maybe.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye:
The government requires them to get waivers to fix or repair any of their sacred buildings

To be specific, Copts cannot so much as fix a toilet in one of their churches without authorisation from the President.

Mostafa, when I visited Egypt 33 years ago, I was very impressed with Islam, with the politeness and honesty of the people. But your people has changed, and the things your people say they are doing for Islam, have poisoned your country, and have poisoned my view of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_massacre

Your police spend more time arresting people who protest the massacre of Christians in your country than they spend going after the actual murderers. The Copts that your people drive out, they come here or go to Europe, and tell their stories, and what do you think that makes the rest of the world think about Islam?

quote:
As the Christian worshipers were leaving the Nag Hammadi Cathedral after the Christmas Eve service, a car pulled up and gunfire was sprayed into the crowd. As a result, eight Copts all aged between 15 and 23 were killed. Six died immediately, while two more died the following day because of severe injuries. In addition one Muslim bystander was also killed in the attack. Nine other Copts were confirmed wounded, and two Muslims were reportedly wounded in the attack.

The names of the Coptic victims are:

Mina Helmy Said (16 years).
Bishoy Farid Labib (16 years).
Dina Hamalni (17 years).
Boula Atef Yassa (18 years).
Abanoub Kamal Nashed (19 years).
Ayman Zakaria Louka (25 years).
Rafik Refaat William (28 years).
Zakaria Toma (29 years).

In addition, two Coptic women died when a Muslim mob set the houses of Christians on fire in nearby villages. The names of these two women are:

Mary Bouktor.
Alice Koustangi (from the village of Bahgoura).

Aftermath
On 8 January 2010, three men were arrested and charged with premeditated murder in association with the Nag Hammadi massacre." The names of the three accused men were Mohammed al-Kammuni, Qurshi Abul Haggag and Hendawi Sayyed. The trial opened on 13 February 2010. Despite initially confessing to the police, they have pleaded not guilty to the charges of premeditated murder, putting lives of citizens at risk, and damaging property. The Supreme State Security Court adjourned the trial until 20 March 2010.

Governmental Justification
In an attempt to justify the massacre, a number of Egyptian officials announced that the attack may have been "in revenge for the alleged rape of a 12-year-old Muslim girl by a Christian man" in the nearby town of Farshout in November. This incident led to five days of riots and attacks on Christian businesses and properties in Upper Egypt. A man was arrested and charged with the alleged rape on November 21, 2009, and is due to stand trial. However, the man continuously denied the allegations, and Christian sources believed he had been framed. According to the Coptic American Friendship Association, eye-witnesses reported that the mobs were chanting Allah Akbar and There is no God but Allah while destroying, looting and torching Coptic property in many recent attacks.

Egyptian Reaction
Following the Nag Hammadi massacre and the associated attacks, the Egyptian police raided the homes of Coptic Christian families in Nag Hammadi on 10 January 2010, and arrested 22 young Copts, most of whom were teenagers. These Copts were detained at the Nag Hammadi police station for a few days, then transferred to jail in the isolated New Valley Governorate. None of the arrested Copts was ever formally charged with any crime.

It was not until two weeks after the massacre that President Hosni Mubarak made his first remarks directly condemning what happened. He stated that "The criminal act in Nag Hammadi has made the hearts of Egyptians bleed, whether Copts or Muslims".

The Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR) condemned the attack, stating that despite warnings by local church authorities of possible violence during the Coptic holiday, police had not bolstered security for Christmas.[34]

On 9 January 2010, hundreds of people in Cairo demonstrated, carrying placards condemning "the shocking silence of the authorities" and stating "We are All Copts". On the same day, Egyptian police arrested 20 people who demonstrated in the town of Bahgura against the Nag Hammadi massacre.

On 15 January, 29 Egyptian human rights activists, bloggers, and members of political parties visited Nag Hammadi in order to show solidarity with the Coptic community against the recent attacks on Coptic civilians. All 29 activists were arrested by Egyptian police while on their way to pay their condolences to the families of the Coptic Christians shot and killed one week earlier. The group included prominent activists such as Wael Abbas, members of April 6 Youth Movement, and members of the Democratic Front Party. The group included 8 women, one of whom was a French citizen. The activists were detained and interrogated by the prosecutor the Qena Governorate. A number of them was charged with demonstrating illegally, chanting slogans against the state, and causing disorder. Group members denied these allegations, stating that Egyptian police arrested them when they arrived at the train station, and that the group had not had time to engage in any activities

I recognize that many of the 100 protesters in Cairo may have been brave Muslims who seek to protect the rights of their Christian neighbors. Unfortunately the article is not clear on that fact. If so, they need to stand out as Muslims, and carry signs saying that what was done violates the precepts of Islam.

The world is watching you, and when you get all upset that some stupid American pastor in Florida wants to burn the Qu'ran (just like he can burn a flag or a Bible or a crucifix under American law), one has to wonder, where are your words of protest over the murder of your Christian neighbors, in their CHURCH, on Christmas eve, in your own country?

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cherrypoptart
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> The world is watching you, and when you get all upset that some stupid American pastor in Florida wants to burn the Qu'ran (just like he can burn a flag or a Bible or a crucifix under American law), one has to wonder, where are your words of protest over the murder of your Christian neighbors, in their CHURCH, on Christmas eve, in your own country?

Good point there Pete.

That was basically the point I was trying to make a bit earlier that you seemed to get a little upset about. But it's cool, water under the bridge.

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RickyB
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" I am arguing against you trying to gin up isolated instances of a handful of Americans behaving badly into some equivilence of what happens over there."

Dude, you notice that you're the only one bringing up the comparison? Like, at all?

"Third: I agree. Islam needs to be mocked more, not less. "

All religions do. [Smile] But mocked, not hated on. There's a difference. I'll wipe my ass with a quran and both testaments but not tell any of those groups where they may pray.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
His stated purpose is now void...
I think it's a bit early to conclude that. In fact, if the place ever gets built, I fully expect that once the drooling lunatics get tired of it and drift away, it'll prove to be quite the asset to the neighborhood. Pandering in the short term to brainless idiots isn't a winning strategy for anyone really wanting to make a difference.
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mostafa
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quote:
When Arabs burn American flags, do you think Americans care? Are we driven to madness and murder by the sight? No.

The religion is preferred to any other thing.

quote:
I have the right to not believe in Islam. Moreover, I have the right to mock Islam and its prophets. To suggest otherwise is to deny the possibility of a world in which people are free to disagree about the unanswerable questions (like, for example, "does God exist, and which religion has it right?") And as the Western world has learned, and as the Arab world is slowly learning, permitting that sort of disagreement is absolutely vital to any society that truly intends to embrace liberty.
I will talk about the freedom in Islam.

quote:
we believe that individuals have the right to express themselves
That should be without hurting the senses of the others.

quote:
is this true of all books, some books or just the Quran?

Personally, If I see any Muslim burn the Bible or the books of the others,of course, I will stop him.

quote:
as your prophet, (PBUH) was misinformed when he assumed that the Virgin Mary was a member of the Godhead.
There is no religion Honors the Virgin Mary <Peace Be Upon Her> but Islam.

Allah says in the holy Quran:

42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
43. "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
We have sura in the holy Quran was named ''MARY''


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Wiki: Persecution of the Copts


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Islamic era
[edit] The Arab-Muslim conquest of Egypt
The Muslim conquest of Egypt took place in AD 639. Despite the political upheaval, Egypt remained a mainly Christian land, although the gradual conversions to Islam over the centuries changed Egypt from a mainly Christian to a mainly Muslim country by the end of the 12th century.[18]

This process was sped along by persecutions during and following the reign of the Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah (reigned AD 996–1021) and the Crusades, and also by the acceptance of Arabic as a liturgical language by the Pope of Alexandria Gabriel ibn-Turaik.[18]

During Islamic rule, the Copts needed to pay a special tax on non-Muslims called the jizya in order to be defended by Muslim armies, as non-Muslims were not allowed to serve in the army. This tax was abolished in 1855.

Modern era
In Egypt the government does not officially recognize conversions from Islam to Christianity; also certain interfaith marriages are not allowed either, this prevents marriages between converts to Christianity and those born in Christian communities, and also results in the children of Christian converts being classified as Muslims and given a Muslim education.

The government also requires permits for repairing churches or building new ones, which are often withheld. Foreign missionaries are allowed in the country only if they restrict their activities to social improvements and refrain from proselytizing.

Sectarian attacks since 1970
The last quarter of the twentieth century and the first decade of the twenty first have seen a deterioration in relations between Muslims and the Coptic minority in Egypt. This is seen in day-to-day interactions such as the insulting of Coptic priests by Muslim children, (In America, we call these hate crimes and Muslims whine if and when they are insulted.) but also in much more serious events such as attacks on Coptic churches, monasteries, villages, homes and shops, particularly in Upper Egypt during the 1980 and 90s. From 1992 to 1998 Islamist extremists in Egypt are thought to have killed 127 Copts.[19]

By the end of the 1990s, in Minya province "an ancient center of the Coptic faith", five churches, two charity organizations, and 38 mostly Christian-owned businesses had been burned. Witnesses described the destruction as having been carried out "by gangs of young Muslims wielding iron bars and Molotov cocktails and shouting `God is Great!`"[20] The police have been accused of siding with the attackers in some of these cases.[21]. And in Southern Egypt, there were problems in which involves terrorists going into monasteries, harassing, capturing, and torturing monks (such as the 2008 attacks on the monks of the Monastery of Saint Fana). (So much for the Prophet...)

Some observers have connected the robberies, extortion and "collection" of "taxes" from Copts to the belief by Islamists that the traditional Jizya poll tax on non-Muslims should be reinstituted. Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur expressed this belief in a 1997 interview. He also stated that while `we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly [national legislature] ... the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country," and Christians can not be trusted to fight for Egypt against Christian foreigners.[22]

With his freeing members of the Muslim brotherhood, persecution of the Copts only increased. [23], statements by Muslim Brotherhood and Sadat further exacerbated the situation of non-Muslims (namely the Copts). [24]

In 1981, President Anwar Sadat, internally exiled the Coptic Pope Shenouda III accusing him of fomenting interconfessional strife. Sadat then chose five Coptic bishops and asked them to choose a new pope. They refused, and in 1985 President Hosni Mubarak restored Pope Shenouda III.

In May 2010, The Wall Street Journal reported increasing "waves of mob assaults" by Muslims against Copts, forcing many Christians to flee their homes.[15] Despite frantic calls for help, the police typically arrived after the violence was over.[15] The police also coerced the Copts to accept "reconciliation" with their attackers to avoid prosecuting them, with no Muslims convicted for any of the attacks.[15]


6 November 1972
Muslim mob attack and burn a prayer meeting by Egyptian Christian Copts at the Holy Scripture College, an attack which preceded the infamous Khanka attacks on the Copts.[25]


June 1981
81 Copts were killed by a mob of Muslims. Interior Minister Abu Pasha blamed the deaths on a lack of adequate security measures for which his predecessor Ennabawy Ismael was responsible (according to Abu Pasha). [25]


17 November 1981
Coptic priest the Reverend Maximose Guirguis is kidnapped and threatened with death he does not denounce his Christianity and publicly convert to Islam. He refuses and his throat is cut leaving him bleeding to death.[25]


20 September 1991
Muslim mob attacks Copts in Embaba, an outer suburb of Cairo.[25]


9 March 1992
Manshiet Nasser, Dyroot, Upper Egypt. Copt son of a farmer Badr Abdullah Massoud is gunned down after refusing to pay a tax of about $166 to the local leader of Islamic Group. Massoud's body is then hacked "with knives."[26]


4 May 1992
Villages of Manshia and Weesa in Dyroot, Upper Egypt. After being Manshiet Naser's Christians for weeks, an Islamic extremist methodically shoots 13 of them to death. Victims included ten farmers and a child tending their fields, a doctor leaving his home for work, and an elementary school teacher giving a class.[26]


12 May 1992
A bloodshed in Manfaloot, Upper Egypt, on the Coptic Easter day with 6 Copts murdered and 50 injured, followed by some 200 arrests.[25]


15 & 16 October 1992
Muslim mob attacks with burning and looting of shops and 42 houses owned by Christian Copts, with 3 Copts injured and the destruction of an estimated 5 Million pounds of property, live stock, merchandise and work places Kafr Demian in Sharqueyya in the Nile Delta.[25]


2 December 1992
Muslim mob attacks Copts in the city of Assiut, Upper Egypt.[25]


December 1992
Muslim mob attacks Copts in the Village of Meer, Al Quosseya, Upper Egypt, murdering four Copts and slitting the throat of a Coptic jeweller for refusing to pay protection money.[25]


13 March 1997
Muslim mob attacks a Tourist Train with Spanish Tourists, killing 13 Christians and injuring 6, in the Village of Nakhla near Nagge Hammadi.

The terrorists increased the frequency of their attacks and widened it to include whom the viewed as collaborators with the security force, launching an attack on the eve of the Adha Eid using automatic weapons killing Copts as well as Muslims.[25]


1997
Abu Qurqas. "Three masked terrorist" entered St. George Church in Abu Qurqas and shoot dead eight Copts at a weekly youth group meeting. "As the attackers fled, they gunned down a Christian farmer watering his fields." [27]


January 2000
Al Kosheh, a "predominently Christian town" in southern Egypt. After a Muslim customer and a Christian shoe-store owner fall into an argument, three days of rioting and street fighting erupt leaving 20 Christians, (including four children) and one Muslim dead." In the aftermath 38 Muslim defendants are charged with murder in connection with the deaths of the 20 Copts. But all are acquitted of murder charges, and only four are convicting of any (lesser) charges, with the longest sentence given being 10 years." After protest by the Coptic Pope Shenouda the government granted a new trial. [28]


19 November 2000
Muslim mob attempt to force a Copt to pronounce the Islamic faith declarations (Shehadas) then beat him to death when he refuses their demand.[25]


19 April 2009
A group of Muslims (Mahmoud Hussein Mohamed (26 years old), Mohamed Abdel Kader (32 years old), Ramadan Fawzy Mohamed (24 years old), Ahmed Mohamed Saeed (16 years old), and Abu Bakr Mohamed Saeed ) opened fire at Christians on Easter's Eve killing two (Hedra Adib (22 years old), and Amir Estafanos (26 years old)) and injuring another (Mina Samir (25 years old)). This event was in Hegaza village, Koos city. On 22 February 2010, they were sentenced to 25 years of jail while crimes of this level in Egypt should face death penalty. [29] [30]


6 January 2010
Main article: Nag Hammadi massacre
Machine gun attack by Muslim mob on Coptic Christians celebrating the Egyptian birth of Christ. Seven are killed (including a Muslim officer in his trial to defend them) and scores injured, and lots of lives ruined.


April/May 2010
In Marsa Matrouh, a mob of 3,000 Muslims attacked the city's Coptic Christian population, with 400 Copts having to barricade themselves in their church while the mob destroyed 18 homes, 23 shops and 16 cars.[15]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, a few teenagers say some nasty things to a couple muslim kids, a brick is thrown, a bubba burns some construction equipment, a Koran is threatened to be burned, and some of you have the absolute gall to call that harassment.

Sorry, still not seeing the 'shadow of fear' because even Conservatives are not exactly on his side. (We DO point out the hypocrisy of demanding sensitivity from the Pastor and not the Imam, however)

Mostafa. Peace be upon you. But how about you put some Peace upon the People of the Book in your own country!

flydye [Smile] ,I am sorry. I answer that question in my topic:
<the real Islam> page.7

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Personally, If I see any Muslim burn the Bible or the books of the others,of course, I will stop him.
Why? What harm does he do?
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DonaldD
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And just to be clear, are you talking specifically of religious books, non-religious books that specific people care about or any books whatsoever?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
> The world is watching you, and when you get all upset that some stupid American pastor in Florida wants to burn the Qu'ran (just like he can burn a flag or a Bible or a crucifix under American law), one has to wonder, where are your words of protest over the murder of your Christian neighbors, in their CHURCH, on Christmas eve, in your own country?

Good point there Pete.

That was basically the point I was trying to make a bit earlier that you seemed to get a little upset about. But it's cool, water under the bridge.

Then I apologize for misunderstood you -- I thought you were questioning the patriotism of those you disagreed with.

Mostafa, I would not act to stop someone from burning a book that belonged to them. But I was willing to put myself at risk by standing guard outside a mosque after 9/11, when it was feared that some people might hurt innocent Muslims in retaliation for Osama Bin Laden's acts.

We honor the book more by keeping its teaching, than by protecting a mere copy of the book from burning. Both Qu'ran and the Bible teach the value of human life. To protect the book more than one protects human life, seems to me to be a sort of idolatry.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
The meme is anti-American in general and anti-Republican specifically. This is meme engineering at its most blatant and heavy handed. Of course, the sheeple will follow. They somehow always do.

And, the meme manufacturing accomplishes its mission:
quote:
Ayatollah Khamenei warned people not to believe that isolated right-wing American Christians were to blame, calling them “puppets” of the government. “This incident and previous incidents clearly show that what the global arrogance is attacking today is the foundation of Islam and the Holy Koran,” he said.
For those not aware, "the global arrogance" is code for the United States. Right wing (i.e. republican) and Christians are the puppets. All the right targets identified.

And, the inevitable reaction of the sheeple:
quote:
In Tehran, about 1,000 protesters chanting “Death to America” and “U.S. pastor must be killed” clashed with the police and threw stones at the Swiss Embassy, Reuters reported.
Mission accomplished.
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Carlotta
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Mostapha, why do you say that Islam is the only religion that honors the Virgin Mary?

You wrote, " Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
43. "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

I am Catholic and my church teaches that the angel Gabriel called Mary "full of grace". We honor her as blessed above all other women, and pray with her to God. We claim her as our spiritual mother and honor her as the mother of Jesus. Is this not honor?

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cherrypoptart
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Fox news, so take it with whatever spice of however much quantity suits your taste.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/20/daniel-huff-civil-rights-koran-muslims-mosque-islam-amendment/

Why Is America Curbing Free Speech, and Giving Extremists What They Want?
By Daniel Huff

Published September 24, 2010

The struggle for civil rights in the last century forged a national commitment to preserving free speech in the face of hostile audiences. At the beginning of this century, it is alarming how quickly the Koran controversy that erupted before 9/11 melted that resolve.

Initially, everyone from Mayor Bloomberg to the White House affirmed a right to burn the book even as they condemned the act. Then Gen. David Petraeus got involved, followed by the FBI, and now Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer says Koran burning may not be protected speech after all.

The key to this rapid reversal was General Petraeus’ warning that Koran burning “could endanger troops” and the war effort. Although styled as a request not a demand, his comments laid the legal foundation for compelled government censorship. The reason is that First Amendment rights are not absolute. The Constitution permits the government to censor speech if necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. This is a very high standard, but the fact that the nation’s top commander made a rare public appeal for restraint will be cited as strong evidence that avoiding offense to Muslims is essential to the national interest.

Once this dangerous premise is accepted, the door is open to court injunctions against speech that inflames Muslim sentiment in strategically important locations.

It has already started.

Recently, the New Jersey Transit Authority fired an 11-year veteran employee for burning the Koran at a 9/11 rally. Ordinarily, a government employee cannot be dismissed for expressing personal views on a matter of public concern unless it interferes with the orderly functioning of the workplace. Should he sue, the government may try the “Petraeus defense.”

----------------------------------------

Especially interesting was that "Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer says Koran burning may not be protected speech after all."

I have to admit that I actually had a feeling this was coming and wouldn't put it past a big lib like Breyer to have the opinion, in this case maybe that should be capilized with a big "O", Opinion, that burning the American flag is protected free speech but burning the Koran is not.

I also admit to seeing the difference. If burning the flag was going to get people killed for pretty sure, perhaps even for certain, would it still be the same act?

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G2
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Terry finally follows through on the plan.
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Viking_Longship
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I hope Bin Laden sends him a "thank you" note.

The comments section was interesting. Sort of nice to see the obnoxious atheists picking on someone else for a change.

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Pete at Home
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Wish you hadn't linked it and promoted this stupidity in the blogosphere.

This pastor talks exactly like a drooling Muslim fundy terrorist with that idiotic rhetoric about the Quran being "found guilty" and the burning being a "punishment" that must be carried out.

Obviously there's a massive moral difference in that he's merely burning paper rather than beheading a human being like the islamofundies, but why legitimize the underlying rhetoric?

The sermon on the mount might say that Pastor Terry was committing terrorism in his heart.

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DonaldD
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I wonder if the families of the dead Swedes, Norwegians and Romanians will take Jones to court in their own jurisdiction for his actions...
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