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Author Topic: A promise to my dad.
tonylovern
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I got a phone call tonight from my dad. He was slightly agitated and asked me to post a question on "the internet", just to get it out there. while he wanted me to post it on an msnbc website, i chose to not go there. as a compromise i told him that i would post here and let him read the responses after the thread peters out.

My dad is not on the internet. His main sources of political thinking come from television, magazines and newspapers. also, he spends most of his time alone. with those caveats i'll pose his question.

"is osama bin laden helping to fund republicans through the chamber of commerce, in order to finish destroying America?"


Yes, i know that it's a very loaded question that only works under several large assumptions. Assumptions that i honestly dont know enough about to address adequately. I dont know if the chamber of commerce funds any politicians. I dont know if thier donations are anonymous. I dont know if it's even possible for terrorist organizations to funnel money into the american political process, let alone whether or not they would want to. I would imagine that sums of money large enough to affect the political process would be better spent on more guns and payroll. like Many of you know, i tend to focus more on social relations than politics. therfore i am incredibly unqualified to address questions like this.

I thank anyone that participates in this in advance. any polite reasonable response is greatly appreciated.

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TomDavidson
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Which Chamber of Commerce?
For my part, I think it's very unlikely that Osama bin Laden is contributing in any large part to American election funds this year; he should be far more concerned about large corporations, who have their own reasons to "destroy America" and are more likely to succeed.

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Grant
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No I do not think OBL is funding the Republicans through the chamber of commerce to finish destroying America.

1. I don't think the Republicans have destroyed america any more then the Democrats.

2. Republicans arn't coming out big winners so far, it seems the tea party people are pissing off Karl Rove and the GOP elite.

I'm sorry. That's a very difficult question to answer, but I respect that you asked it.

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tonylovern
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thank you tom. that was a perfect example how unqualified i am. i dont know which, i would assume one that works on a national level. there was a snippet of conversation concerning tea party candidates O'donnel and paladino.
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LoverOfJoy
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After a quick search, it seems the question may be in regards to this.
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tonylovern
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And thank you grant. i was typing a response to tom when you posted.
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JoshuaD
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quote:
"is osama bin laden helping to fund republicans through the chamber of commerce, in order to finish destroying America?"
No.
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LetterRip
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LoJ,

interesting link - seems likely illegal if accurate.

To answer the orignal question - no.

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cherrypoptart
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So your dad isn't sure about whether or not OBL is behind this, and that's the question. My contacts in the Middle-East haven't gotten back to me yet on that so I'll let you know if I find out anything.

But, out of curiosity, is it just a given then that Republicans if given the chance will finish destroying America?

I'm pretty sure that's the more important part of the question.

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tonylovern
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I'm pretty sure he'll never vote republican. When he first started talking to me about it i was convinced that it was just pot stirring. after reading LOJ's link i'm starting to wonder.

apparently some of the money is coming from saudi arabia. thats not proof, just a tenuos link. however, it has started me wondering if OBL could influence american elections. the answer to that is apparently yes.

so it is possible if not probable. at least i dont think it's probable. in order for OBL's goals to line up with the goals of a multi-national bussiness association, he would have to believe that the most effective way destroying america is backing terrible candidates who are no more than schills for the corporations and letting us outsource ourself into poverty.

in order for him to believe that he would have to be completely ignorant of american history. the tougher the times get here, the more we tend to band together in cohesive groups. the worse our economy, the more we support foriegn wars.

unless his goal is to stay trapped in that hellhole we call the middle east forever.

so, it still doesnt add up for me. like i said, the possibility is there but i honestly dont understand the reasoning for it. there are simply too many pieces that i'm not seeing.

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tonylovern
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quote:
But, out of curiosity, is it just a given then that Republicans if given the chance will finish destroying America?

sorry, i forgot to address this question.

i'll answer for my dad first. the man spent 20+ years working for a unionized factory running thier machines and toting 150-200 pound rolls of naugahide(sp).towards the end of his service there was a problem with one of the machines. a big spiky part was sticking up causing a safety issue. he called a union break/meeting to address the problem. he was promptly fired for it. about 6 months later, his cousin died on that machine. when a greedy corporation takes your livelihood, kills your relative and tells the union that they'll move the plant to mexico if they cause any trouble, you tend to distrust corporations.

after he was fired he went through a messy divorce where his wife decided to max out every credit card in his name she could, and let the house that he paid for for 15 years go in to forclosure. after she left the house he moved back in for as long as he could. one night while drinking, he called my grandma to tell her that he was going to burn his house down and die inside of it. my grandma proceeded to come pick him up and get him to a comfy mental ward.

while in the hospital they started a social security disability application for him. after he got out of the hospital he lived in a tiny camper for about 6 months waiting to see what would happen with the house, the 2 daughters he never got to see and generaly whether anything would improve in his life.

something did improve. he got approved for SSD. the back pay on the SSD was enough to save his house. without that help he probably would have killed himself in that tiny camper.

Republicans are corporate schills who want to dismantle social security. so yes, i would imagine that he does think republicans are destroying this country. He lived through the last bush administration so he knows how bad the republicans are in dealing with the lower classes.

as for me. I've seen enough on this board to know how prevalant the "screw the poor people" mindset is. everyone just needs to work harder, mexicans need to work harder in mexico. why arent the poorest citizens paying enough taxes? overweight mothers of 4 dont deserve premium ice cream from thier food stamp money. people with petty criminal records and all drug users deserve to be unemployed and desperate.

Never mind the fact that getting high or buying the good ice cream is the closest most of my people are ever going to come to any kind of contentment or satisfaction with thier lives, screw them.

to me, that mindset is just evil. sure there are people smart enough or lucky enough to escape poverty, but the vast majority of those people never will, crippling the next generation ad nauseum.

so, i too think that republicans will continue to destroy america through either obstructionism or corporate favoratism. who am i kidding, its probably both.

man, i'm gonna be sad once i re-acclimate to my meds and cant form cohesive arguments anymore.

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LetterRip
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That is such a sad story, thank you for sharing it with us.

I think there is often a fundamental disconnect between those who have experienced some of lifes hardships, and those who have not.

[ October 12, 2010, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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cherrypoptart
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Thank you for that insight into the context for his concerns. I'm afraid I don't have any answers but I do wish both of you the best and hope things work out as best they can.
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Pyrtolin
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To be fair ObL does want us to push for foreign wars, because the more we focus on fighting abroad, the easier it becomes for him to find converts and the more war weary we become across the board.

But he doesn't need to put a penny into the CoC our any other similar organization that effectively works to launder money given the current rules. He just needs to say "Boo!" from time to time and let fear do the rest of his work for him.

On the other hand money from staffing companies that want to keep outsourcing strong? Sure. But bin Laden has already spent as much as is useful here; he gets more value out of staging attacks elsewhere and keeping us busy than he does from any direct investment.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by tonylovern:
"is osama bin laden helping to fund republicans through the chamber of commerce, in order to finish destroying America?"

No.
quote:
White House officials acknowledged Friday that they had no specific evidence to indicate that the chamber had used money from foreign entities to finance political attack ads.

“The president was not suggesting any illegality,” Bob Bauer, the White House counsel, said. Instead, he said Mr. Obama’s reference to the chamber was meant to draw attention to the inadequacies of campaign disclosure laws in allowing groups to spend large amounts of money on politics without disclosing their donors.

No evidence and not even suggesting it ... they just keep saying it over and over again. Why? They're desperate, look at the polling. This is just one of those baseless smears so common in modern American politics as we run up to an election. Nothing more.
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Colin JM0397
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No.
Tony, you only have it half-way right.

Are Republicans going to finish us off?
They will try to.

The other side of that you are neglecting is:
Are Democrats going to finish us off?
They will try to.

Makes no difference.

What is sad is that anyone sees life's hardships as the fault or responsibility of a national political party.

Those individuals who screwed your father and all that are just plain assholes - no political affiliation comes into play there. Although, I can see how he and you see it that way.

As for the question, OBL is the modern boogey man. Al Qaeda did not exist until the CIA gave him lots of money and created their "The List" (which translates into Al Qaeda) of his associates to keep track of who they were paying. Ergo, Al Qaeda and OBL are a creation of the US's intelligence agencies (and our allies, it would seem).

As for Tea Party vis-a-vis the Republican party, as much as Sara Palin is trying to co-opt it (ie the usual suspects of Neo-con jackasses), "The Tea Party" is not a tea party, it's a fractured non-organization with many smaller groups. By and large "The Tea Party" is ANTI-Republican in the way that Ron Paul is anti-Republican. He is technically a Republican, but has next to nothing to do with the mainstream Republicans.

Point being "The Tea Party" candidates - the real ones not backed by neo-con asshats - are just as much against "Republicans" as any Democrats are. They are anti-incumbent, anti-establishment. The Republican party is furiously trying to co-opt at least some of the larger groups lest they lose control of "their party".

As I see it, the overall point of “The Tea Party” is that the system is broken and regular folks need to take back positive control. Rather than fight the 3rd party battle, they figured it would be easier to take over one of the existing parties. Based on historical party lines (nothing to do with today’s party lines), they declared themselves “Republican” – again along the lines of a Ron Paul, not a Sara Palin.

"The establishment" many of us talk about - the Demopublicans, the Corptocracy fascist system IOW - is pooping a brick right about now. They are in danger of losing control. They are throwing up as much garbage, chaff, and BS as they and their MSM minions can muster.

They are trying to scare the mainline Dems that "The Tea Party" will take their benefits and eat their children just as much as they are trying to rally the Rep troops behind the neo-con establishment. It's all a big fat load of BS, and little to nothing coming out of the MSM today has any bearing on reality.

On that note: http://www.gallup.com/poll/143267/distrust-media-edges-record-high.aspx
quote:
For the fourth straight year, the majority of Americans say they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly. The 57% who now say this is a record high by one percentage point.


[ October 12, 2010, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Colin JM0397 ]

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Gaoics79
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quote:
What is sad is that anyone sees life's hardships as the fault or responsibility of a national political party.
Just what I was going to say.
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RickyB
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I highly, highly^100 doubt it...

I'd bet money against it, if anyone could figure out a way to prove such a negative.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
They are in danger of losing control.
No they're not, unless serious electoral reforms are made.

Put 100 pennies in a row. Now put a nickel at penny between 17 and 18 and one between 82 and 83. Assuming that each penny will vote for the nickel closest to it (equidistant pennies are split 50/50) it's impossible to add a nickel anywhere else on the line so that it wins the most pennies.

Once two parties have a lock on a plurality based electoral system- especially if they're colluding, as you suggest- then is becomes fairly easy to stake out positions so that it's impossible for a third party to gain traction.

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Pete at Home
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No.

OBL's purpose isn't to destroy America; it's to unite the Muslim world behind him. So destroying America is only useful to OBL if he can be seen doing it. Secretly destroying America would be no use to him at all -- in fact it would be counterproductive to his purpose.

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Colin JM0397
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A few seats won't change anything immediately, but they are the proverbial little boy with his finger in the dike leak.
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tonylovern
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thank you everyone for your responses. you've done a much better job of addressing my dads question than i ever could have on my own.
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Funean
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Saw this today.
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PSRT
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From Funean's link

quote:
More importantly, the Chamber maintains that none of that foreign money is used to finance the Chamber's political agenda in the United States. The Chamber put out a statement saying all foreign money received by the organization is properly segregated from money used to fund political activity.
The idea of "Money segregation," is one of the more laughable concepts enshrined in American Law.

[ October 12, 2010, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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Funean
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Yes, and they refuse to show that it isn't fungible because, you know, they don't have to.
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tonylovern
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Jon stewart is covering a related story on the daily show right now.
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G2
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The Washington Post has just published their account of PAC's and where they're spending. Funny thing is, the Chamber of Commerce is the most bipartisan of them all with 15% of their spending going to democrats. That's nearly $2 million dollars.

[ October 15, 2010, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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Star Pilot 111
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LetterRip : "I think there is often a fundamental disconnect between those who have experienced some of lifes hardships, and those who have not."
_____________________________________________________

I apologize. But I have to say something.
Dear LetteRip if you stand back and really think about that statement [Confused]

It comes accross as arrogant. There are millions of people who have experienced not only some of lifes hardships,but many of life's hardships and don't blame anyone. My maternal grand parents. After a long bout with cancer my grand father died, my grand mother was devistated without him.They had 7 children. During World War II her oldest son's ship was destroyed by a German Sub. He and a few others survived on a raft for weeks.Nonetheless, died of heat thirst and starvation, my grand mother committed suicide. My mother was the oldest and raised the rest. All of the siblings turned out to be very successful in life. It came accross as if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Or have been very fortunate.

This is just one example, your statement is false.

I'm not trying to be an ---hole, but as you can see it did bother me.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
The Tea Party" is not a tea party, it's a fractured non-organization with many smaller groups. By and large "The Tea Party" is ANTI-Republican in the way that Ron Paul is anti-Republican.
I entirely disagree, and had a lengthy debate about this. People who say that they are Tea Party followers in polls say that they are 90% likely to vote for Republicans.

There is an unprecedented amount of corporate money funneling into American elections due to the Supreme Court's Citizen United ruling. As G2 stated so clearly, the money is following about 7:1 to Republicans. Because of Citizen's United, their identities have not been revealed, but here's my guess as to where it is coming from:

The biggest contributors would be corporations with interests in energy, health care and financial services, because they have the most to gain from weaker federal regulation. For example, when the Obama Administration streamlined the student loan process, they cut $30 billion/year of administrative costs and profits from the financial industry (this is known as actually cutting "waste", as the expenditures did not buy anything of value). It can be worthwhile from a strictly business perspective to invest a hundred million dollars in bringing about a Congress that is more responsive to your business needs. And there may also be investments made by those whose long-term ideology and financial interests are closely aligned, for example the Koch brothers.

The largest part of the foreign money is most likely from foreign corporations that want to influence our policy for their economic benefit. Where ideology is driving the investment to shape the American Congress to meet the needs of foreigners, I suspect that one of the leading sources is the News Group, the parent of Fox News which has significant foreign ownership from Rupert Murdoch and his family and Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal. I don't think that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida have the cash to invest in this kind of thing.

And with anything in the real world, I suspect in the small percentages you will find all sorts of groups investing (some of the 15% going to Democrats might come from the coal industry supporting Democrats who are against climate change legislation, but some relatively small amounts may come from all sorts of places, including a few who do support liberal causes).

[ October 16, 2010, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Gaoics79
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quote:
I entirely disagree, and had a lengthy debate about this. People who say that they are Tea Party followers in polls say that they are 90% likely to vote for Republicans.
This only proves that the tea partiers dislike the Republicans marginally less than they dislike the Democrats. It is a two-party system, so claiming that the tea partiers "support" the republicans is a tad misleading.
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Pete at Home
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Yep. One might as well ask the number of self-identified communists and anarchists who vote Democratic vs. Republican.
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