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Author Topic: How to Kill the Meth Monster
philnotfil
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nytimes.com

quote:
THE latest bad news from the world of methamphetamine is that makers of the drug have perfected a one-pot recipe that enables them to manufacture their highly addictive product while on the move, often in their car. The materials they need — a two-liter soda bottle, a few cold pills and some household chemicals — are easily obtained and easily discarded, often in a trash bag dumped along the highway.

There is, however, a simple way to end this mobile industry — and, indeed, most methamphetamine production. We’ve tried it in Oregon, and have seen how well it works. Just keep a key ingredient, pseudoephedrine, out of the hands of meth producers.

Well, duh, but how, we've been trying for the last forty years, ever since it became an OTC drug instead of a prescription drug, to limit access to it.

quote:
The only effective solution is to put the genie back in the bottle by returning pseudoephedrine to prescription-drug status. That’s what Oregon did more than four years ago, enabling the state to eliminate smurfing and nearly eradicate meth labs. This is part of the reason that Oregon recently experienced the steepest decline in crime rates in the 50 states.

Earlier this year, Mississippi also passed a law requiring a prescription to get pseudoephedrine. Since July, the number of meth labs in that state has fallen by 65 percent.

Well that makes entirely too much sense.
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Colin JM0397
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But think of all those poor police and DEA agents this will put out of work!
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Carlotta
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My only problem with this is how many people will not be able to get cold meds because they can't afford to see a doctor? Those of you who take them - how essential are pseudoephedrines to keeping cold symptoms at a manageable level so that one can go to work and not have to take a sick day? I can't take them, they make me way too hyper and the last time I took them I hallucinated so I just stick with Tylenol and Benadryl.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
nytimes.com

quote:
THE latest bad news from the world of methamphetamine is that makers of the drug have perfected a one-pot recipe that enables them to manufacture their highly addictive product while on the move, often in their car. The materials they need — a two-liter soda bottle, a few cold pills and some household chemicals — are easily obtained and easily discarded, often in a trash bag dumped along the highway.

That's actually good news, since it means less of a chance of meth labs starting fires that burn down whole neighborhoods.

But my understanding was that Meth was increasingly being made in Mexico and smuggled. I've seen 5 different cases where Mexican nationals were accused of smuggling or possessing multiple pounds of Meth which had been brought over the border from Mexico and subsequently across state lines.

If I'm mistaken and if local Meth Labs really are as much of a problem, then rather than making the best over the counter get back to work medicine essentially unavailable to most Americans, I have a proposal which will probably get me called horrible names by Daruma and Colin [Big Grin]


Don't require a prescription, but put it behind the counter and make anyone who purchases it show ID and leave a thumbprint. Upload names and thumb-prints to a federal database. Observe patterns of purchase.

Additionally, we could also: Lace each bottle of Pseudoephedrine-containing meds with one of a few dozen tracer chemicals which have been shown to survive the meth creation process. But that's icing on the cake.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Carlotta:
My only problem with this is how many people will not be able to get cold meds because they can't afford to see a doctor? Those of you who take them - how essential are pseudoephedrines to keeping cold symptoms at a manageable level so that one can go to work and not have to take a sick day? I can't take them, they make me way too hyper and the last time I took them I hallucinated so I just stick with Tylenol and Benadryl.

Honestly, that's as much a solution as a problem right there- that will keep sick people home and resting where they belong and not out infecting everyone they come into contact with. (It also underscores the fact that all jobs need to offer paid sick time)

The better concern is for people with allergies who need an effective control that won't keep them drowsy.

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aupton15
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Pete said,
quote:
Don't require a prescription, but put it behind the counter and make anyone who purchases it show ID and leave a thumbprint. Upload names and thumb-prints to a federal database. Observe patterns of purchase.
I'm not sure about the database part, but I know that a few places in Ohio have required IDs to purchase. My assumption was that there was a method of tracking this, though it loses some of its effectiveness if it is not nationwide.
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
so I just stick with Tylenol and Benadryl.
Please don't take Tylenol. It can be extremely toxic to the liver - especially if you drink alcohol (not necessarily at the same time, just at all, although at the same time is worse), but even if you don't. And even at the recommended doses.

My one professor says that if paracetamol came up for approval to the FDA now, they would never in a thousand years approve it - it's too dangerous.
Take aspirin or ibuprofen or naproxen instead; they are all much safer.

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scifibum
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I guess reducing local manufacture of the drug is a benefit, but I worry that shifting even more of it to other countries will cause more harm than it prevents. I think legalization is the only realistic way to reduce the harm done by illegal drugs, globally.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
My only problem with this is how many people will not be able to get cold meds because they can't afford to see a doctor? Those of you who take them - how essential are pseudoephedrines to keeping cold symptoms at a manageable level so that one can go to work and not have to take a sick day? I can't take them, they make me way too hyper and the last time I took them I hallucinated so I just stick with Tylenol and Benadryl.
Mehh.. I think most cold medicines are basically placebos anyway. My dad, a peditrician, has expressed a similar opinion. To the extent that most of these remedies do anything, it's basically just to make you drowsy and put you to sleep.
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Pyrtolin
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Pseudoephedrine is a stimulant, so it doesn't quite fit into that category. Cough syrup and antihistamines are more in the category of things that don't really do much or tend to make you sleepy as much as anything else.
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MattP
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With a large family we get a lot of colds and a few of us suffer from allergies as well. Pseudoephedrine is the only OTC medication that provides consistent, noticeable relief. We've had some luck with some prescription allergy meds, but those are hard to get when someone comes down with the head cold from hell on a Friday afternoon and they provide less consistent relief. It would really suck for us if pseduoephedrine went prescription-only unless there were some means of getting a long-term supply with a single prescription.
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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
With a large family we get a lot of colds and a few of us suffer from allergies as well. Pseudoephedrine is the only OTC medication that provides consistent, noticeable relief. We've had some luck with some prescription allergy meds, but those are hard to get when someone comes down with the head cold from hell on a Friday afternoon and they provide less consistent relief. It would really suck for us if pseduoephedrine went prescription-only unless there were some means of getting a long-term supply with a single prescription.

I agree. I've had two colds over the last 3 weeks, and pseudoephedrine helps a hell of a lot more than whiskey has.
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Pete at Home
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????????

No one has called me a nazi communist pharonic authoritarian for my proposals?

Could it be that folks actually recognize this pyrogenic poison for what it is?

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Pyrtolin
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What you proposed pretty much matches what PA does already, though it's a signature, not a fingerprint. If you try to purchase more than a certain allotment each month, you're blocked at the very least, if not flagged for investigation. I don't think it's the right solution overall (right up there with laws that restrict selling vanilla to anyone under 21 or glue to anyone under 18) but it's hard to be shocked by something that's already on the books.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
Pseudoephedrine is a stimulant, so it doesn't quite fit into that category. Cough syrup and antihistamines are more in the category of things that don't really do much or tend to make you sleepy as much as anything else.
What brands are we talking about? I was mostly thinking of Niquil and stuff like that. Is there something that actually works?
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Carlotta
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Jasonr, Sudafed is what I'm familiar with.

Pete, here in TX you have to show your ID and fill out a form to buy Sudafed.

OpsanusTau, I prefer ibuprofen normally but was told acetominophen was safer when pregnant. Is this not true? Regardless, I don't take it but maybe one dose every month or two. I'm glad I only give my kids ibuprofen though - when I found out accidental overdoses on Tylenol are much worse than with ibuprofen we got the kids Tylenol out of the house. Hope that was the right thing to do.

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scifibum
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jasonr, pseudoephedrine is a decongestant and it's extremely helpful to make breathing and sleeping with a head cold easier. The non-methogenic ( [Wink] ) alternative they've been putting out on the shelves, synephrine, is practically useless. I'm guessing your dad was talking either about this sad substitute or about drugs that purportedly relieve other symptoms, or maybe about cold meds for small children, which are largely out of favor with the medical community anyway.

Nyquil contains a whole mess of different drugs. I think there's a version that contains synephrine (useless) and a version that contains pseudoephedrine (useful) but the latter is harder to get in most states.

This might be entirely different in Canada, for all I know.

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scifibum
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Pete, I think your solution is terrible, and that's why I'm in favor of legalizing instead of notching up the war on drugs one more level. I am not really outraged that you thought of it, though. It's a logical next step if you believe in what we're already doing.
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Pyrtolin
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Phenylephrine (or Neo-synephrine, not synephrine, which is for weight loss) does work as an inhalant, but it's definitely not as useful orally (even if it is effective at all)
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Pete, I think your solution is terrible, and that's why I'm in favor of legalizing instead of notching up the war on drugs one more level. I am not really outraged that you thought of it, though. It's a logical next step if you believe in what we're already doing.

I do disagree with the massive prison stretches that we hand out to mules and distributors, particularly with Meth which is 4x as punished as Crack by weight in the federal guidelines. [Eek!] And Crack itself is insanely overpunished already. Some guy in Reno just got 16 years in the federal system for being caught with 14 pounds of the stuff. Sure, the Reno-Winnemucca area, the meth corridor, has been devastated by the filthy drug. Lives, families, neighborhoods destroyed. But huge prison stretches aren't the answer.

OTOH, I don't think that Meth or PCP or crack or heroin should be legal as alcohol is. Hell, I think we could put more restrictions on alcohol, e.g. we should recognize that it's a type of fraud to ply someone with alcohol in order to get them to abuse their credit card and spend all their money.

But Scifi, you are wrong if you think that what I've proposed is part of a war on drugs.

Alcohol is legal and yet we don't let people make hooch in their bathtubs. In fact we zealously investigate and prosecute bootlegging. Even if Meth were manufactured and sold legally, bootlegging would probably remain profitable. Do you really think we should allow bootlegging of meth? Methlegging is extremely dangerous and tends to burn down whole neighborhoods. I would stand by my proposal (which is a safeguard, not a solution) even if possession, use, and sales of Meth were legal.

Another possibility for the war on Methlegging would be to lace pseudoephedrin meds with some chemical that's inert until it's cooked in the meth batching process, at which point it sabotages the chemical reaction. If that's possible, and effective, then we avoid the heavy handed criminal approach.

[ November 17, 2010, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
OpsanusTau, I prefer ibuprofen normally but was told acetominophen was safer when pregnant. Is this not true? Regardless, I don't take it but maybe one dose every month or two. I'm glad I only give my kids ibuprofen though - when I found out accidental overdoses on Tylenol are much worse than with ibuprofen we got the kids Tylenol out of the house. Hope that was the right thing to do.
Sounds like you've done right.
Paracetemol/acetaminophen is not, to my knowledge, any less dangerous during pregnancy than they are at any other time. So, you know - risk of toxicity and liver failure, but not a huge risk if you're taking a small amount in accordance with recommendations.
I don't know much about the risk of damage to the fetus from the other drugs, other than that it exists. I do know that it's generally considered prudent to treat all drugs as prescription during pregnancy, but you probably already did that.

quote:
pseudoephedrine is a decongestant and it's extremely helpful to make breathing and sleeping with a head cold easier.
For this, and for the others talking about which cold remedies work better -
it's interesting to consider that pretty good studies show that various OTC "remedies" are no better than placebo at relieving upper respiratory symptoms.
The only thing that has been consistently well-shown to provide temporary relief is nasal irrigation (neti pot, if you want to be all ayurvedic about it) - which, you know, loosens and removes the snot and makes it easier for your nasal mucosa to get the baddies out.

AND, for the fever-reducers among you - consider that viruses (and bacteria, but that's not what we're talking about here) tend to have optimal function at temperatures somewhat lower than body temperature; cells and molecules of your immune system, meanwhile, have optimal function at a slightly higher temperature. This is why I like to let myself have a fever as long as it's not in the tissue-damage category of fever. Taking an NSAID to lower my fever only gives a leg up to the infectors.

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Daruma28
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Best cold remedy? Take 10,000 IU of Vitamin D3 (cholicalciferol...not "D2") at the onset.

Than 10,000 more everyday until it is gone...which should only take 2-3 days at the most.

I've done it three times in the past 6 months now when colds have raged through my office/peer group. Friends and peers would take a week to a week and a half to get over it.


Works like a charm.

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Daruma28
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BTW - the best way to "kill the meth monster" is to end the insane "war on drugs."

Than those who would like to smoke meth until they kill themselves would eventually take themselves out of the gene pool.

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scifibum
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quote:
But Scifi, you are wrong if you think that what I've proposed is part of a war on drugs.
(because you'd support it even if the drugs were legal)

Fair enough. I don't think methlegging would be profitable in the least if the drug were legal, unless we taxed it ridiculously (which I admit is possible), though.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Phenylephrine (or Neo-synephrine, not synephrine, which is for weight loss) does work as an inhalant, but it's definitely not as useful orally (even if it is effective at all)

Thanks for the correction on the name of the drug I was talking about.

OpsanusTau, are you saying that pseudoephedrine works no better than placebo, or just other various OTC remedies?

Nasal irrigation works well for me as long as I do it frequently, but it's harder to keep that up all night than simply taking an extended release dose of sudafed, and also harder to deal with when out and about.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
The only thing that has been consistently well-shown to provide temporary relief is nasal irrigation (neti pot, if you want to be all ayurvedic about it) - which, you know, loosens and removes the snot and makes it easier for your nasal mucosa to get the baddies out.
I have fought a lifelong battle against nasal congestion, so I tried everything in the book. The Neti Pot turned out to be practically useless for me. I was so excited when I heard about it because I figured, how could it fail? But it just didn't work for me. It was awkward and uncomfortable during use, it kind of cleared things a little at first, but basically within minutes things would clog up. Nasal strips were equally disappointing. It would open things up marginally, but during the night the adhesive would wear out and by the morning the strips would be doing nothing. Meanwhile, you'd have to go to sleep with an uncomfortable sensation of having the equivalent of a bandaid on the bridge off your nose, with only marginal benefit.

The only surefire way I know of to clear nasal congestion 100% guaranteed is Dristan nasal spray. This stuff is like drano for your nose. It simply can't fail. Even during the worst colds it can clear near 100% congestion perfectly within a matter of minutes. It doesn't do anything about a runny nose, but for a good 3-4 hours during the worst cold (or 8-10 hours otherwise) you live congestion free.

The problem is it worked so well I got addicted to it and used it every night before bed for about 5 years. While that guaranteed me a great congestion-free night's sleep (and no more waking up suffocating in the night)it also caused significant congestion particularly during the evening hours, say 7:00 to bedtime. Unfortunately, the more you use Dristan, the more congestion it causes when you're not under its effects. So you're congestion free some of the time, but then you pay for it later, and have to use it even more to counter-act the side effects. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

I still keep a supply of Dristan around and try to use it sparingly, say once a week. When I have a cold though, that stuff is basically my lifeline and I'm using it multiple times a day. I don't think I could stay sane during a cold without it.

I've been searching for a non-chemical alternative for years, but nothing else has ever worked. My Dad gave me a prescription for Flovent, which is supposed to be more appropriate for long-term use than Dristan, but that stuff does almost nothing. And don't get me started on that Nyquil or Sudafed rubbish. My mucous laughs at Sudafed.

[ November 17, 2010, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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scifibum
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jasonr, i wonder if you'd be a good candidate for something like this.
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Daruma28
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OR.....you could try and cut out all grains and refined sugars from your diet for say a month and see if that's what's causing your congestion.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
OR.....you could try and cut out all grains and refined sugars from your diet for say a month and see if that's what's causing your congestion.
Is there any ailment that grains and refined sugars don't cause?

quote:
jasonr, i wonder if you'd be a good candidate for something like this.
That's a really cool link. I hadn't considered a surgical option. I'm okay for now, but if I start suffocating in my sleep again like before I started on the Dristan, I'd seriously consider it.
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Daruma28
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lol

Nevermind. Keep taking drugs or shove a balloon up your nose.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
lol

Nevermind. Keep taking drugs or shove a balloon up your nose.

Of course, you don't know what my diet actually consists of. I actually don't consume a huge amount of refined sugars. Almost everything I eat is from scratch and generally cooked in real butter. I eat very little refined flower and refined sugar overall and alot of protein. From the way you talk, you'd think I was eating everything out of a box.
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Daruma28
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If you have gluten intolerance, even a little bit will cause a whole host of adverse reactions.

Same goes for refined sugars.

I'm just saying...you might wanna try and cut out all grains and refined sugars for a few weeks and see if it makes a difference. It's no guarantee, it may have nothing to do with your problem...but than, would it really hurt to try?

Surely that won't be as painful as surgically shoving a balloon into your nasal passages.

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Daruma28
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Here jason: http://www.grandtimes.com/Gluten-Free.html

quote:
Wheat is one of the top ten food allergens. We don’t know which of the many proteins in wheat is the actual culprit, but we do know that people can be deathly allergic to it.

I know of one young man so desperately allergic to wheat that if he inhales the tiny particles of flour that waft through the kitchen during baking, he experiences an anaphylactic reaction and must be treated with an epinephrine injection to “buy” him enough time to get to an emergency room. The IgE antibodies in his system react to the wheat and this reaction can be fatal.

For other people, wheat is bothersome, but not necessarily life-threatening. Like me, they have a wheat intolerance. This means that the IgG antibodies in our systems react to wheat, although different people may experience different types of reactions.

My response to wheat is nasal congestion and stuffiness, often resulting in sinus infections. Other people have stomach aches, headaches, rashes, joint aches, fatigue, brain fog-to name just a few symptoms. Wheat may not kill those of us with wheat intolerance, but it certainly compromises the quality of our lives.


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Gaoics79
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Interesting. I'd rather be addicted to Dristan or have the surgery than give up wheat gluten. And I'd rather eat spam out of a can as my diet than create bastard fake products based on "substitutions" for proper wheat flour.
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Pyrtolin
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Casein from milk based products is also a big culprit for many people, as are soy, eggs, and a number of other things.

Instead of just trying wheat, it might be good to try a run through an elimination diet and see if that helps to isolate what your particular sensitivities are. From there you can make a better choice as to whether you want to cut what's causing you the trouble, go to an allergist for medication specifically to combat that sensitivity or try to see if you can get long term relief from a surgical technique.

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OpsanusTau
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Jason - my mom had her sinuses surgically opened. She said she wishes she had done it years and years ago. Her quality of life is so much better.

Also: if anyone has a cold remedy that you think works for you, for sure keep taking it as long as it won't hurt you. Whatever. I drink huge amounts of orange juice to ward off migraines, which doesn't make any sense but for some reason I believe, and it almost always works for me. The power of the placebo is an amazing thing.

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Daruma28
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Ops- If you're referring to my Vitamin D3 recommendation with your placebo effect, I'd say to you that the only reason I started using Vitamin D like that was based on some studies that came out last year showing Vit D3 boosts the bodies T-cells to fight off infections.

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-science-behind-vitamin-d-a229720

quote:
study to be published in May 2010 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition provides more evidence supporting vitamin D. A clinical trial was conducted to see if there was a relationship between D levels and seasonal flu infections in children.

Starting in December of 2008 through March 2009, a double-blind, placebo-controlled study compared infection rates among children who took a vitamin D3 supplement against those taking a placebo. The results were quite encouraging.

Of the 167 children taking D vitamins, just 10% became ill with the flu compared to 18% in the placebo group. In addition, of the children with asthma who also took vitamin D, only two had asthma symptoms after contracting the flu, compared to 12 asthma flare ups among children taking placebo. This shows that vitamin D can help prevent secondary complications related to the flu.

Sources of Vitamin D

Vitamin D is hard to come by in food. Some foods, such as fish, contain D naturally but not in high enough amounts to be therapeutic. Others foods, like milk, are fortified with vitamin D, but don't contain high enough amounts of the vitamin either. Normally, the sun is the best source of D, however, during cold and flu season, its angle is too weak to trigger D production in the human body. To ensure therapeutic levels, consumers should opt for vitamin D supplements.

Look for vitamin D3 as opposed to other forms of the vitamin. Sometimes called cholecalciferol, D3 has been used in almost all clinical studies and it is also the most easily absorbed compared to other D vitamins. D2 works as well, but it's not as effective and can cause problems in high doses, which is why experts recommend avoiding this form of vitamin D.


Vitamin D Dose

While researchers are still zeroing in on the optimum vitamin D dose, medical experts suggest aiming for between 90 to 100 nmol/L, or 35 to 40 ng/ml. It's important to have D levels formally tested via blood work ordered by a physician. Many doctors are now testing for serum D levels and prescribing vitamin D supplements, so it should not be difficult to get an order for lab work.

Once the lab work comes back, calculate the vitamin D dose based on how much the serum level needs to rise. For every 1000 IUs of D supplement, there should be a corresponding increase in blood serum levels of 10 ng/ml or 25 nmol/L. For example, if the goal is to raise the D level by 30 ng/ml, then 3000 IUs would be needed daily.

Excess Vitamin D Concerns

The human body is built to withstand large doses of vitamin D. Just 15 minutes in the sun results in production of 10,000 IUs and most people enjoy warm weather on a daily basis with no ill effects. Clinically, researchers have given doses as high as 100,000 IUs every few months without complications. However, this does not mean that consumers should follow suit as excess vitamin D can cause serious side effects if high serum levels are maintained.

The dangers of excess vitamin D rest in the vitamin's impact on calcium absorption. High levels of vitamin D can result in high levels of calcium, which can cause hypercalcemia, a serious medical problem. Experts believe that serum levels above 70 ng/ml could be dangerous, especially if the level is sustained.

This is another reason why it is so important to find out the actual D level prior to supplementation. Periodic monitoring of the D level will ensure long term safety and avoid side effects that could be detrimental to health.

Overall, the use of vitamin D is a safe and effective way to ward of illness. Consumers should have their D serum levels assessed before supplementing, and target vitamin D supplementation to keep levels below 70 ng/ml.

Anecdote:

Had some friends over for dinner. Their son was sick, they discovered he had a fever while he was at our house.

So after they leave, I immediately take 10,000 I.U. of D3. My wife rolled her eyes at me when I suggested she do the same.

Two days later, my friends all have the same symptoms as their son: nausea, runny noses, sore throats and fevers.

Last night, my wife starts feeling a sore throat and congestion...I, feel perfectly fine. She finally agrees to take the 10,000 I.U. D3.

She wakes up this morning symptom free.

I myself take 4,000 I.U. daily anthow and just up the dose when I'm exposed to sick people.

Make of that what you will...just trying to help ya'all. [Smile]

Jason - I know of your love for wheat. All I'm saying is if you go for a period grain free, your symptoms may clear up and you'll know for sure the root source of your problem.

Than you can decide to eat wheat products on occasion and know what to expect when you do eat them...like take some anti-histamines with your baked goods.

For myself, I quit grains for a good year, and have since added them back into my diet...but still only sparingly and very infrequently.

Bread just tastes too damn good. So maybe once or twice a month I'll make some bread for sandwiches and burgers.

But than, I never had an adverse reaction such as congestion and runny nose.

[ November 19, 2010, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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ken_in_sc
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Sudafed gives me panic attacks. I used to have an airplane. I sold it and quit flying because of attacks of a pounding heart and jerky reflexive actions in flight. I now think it was because of Sudafed. However, I think the War on Drugs in unconstitutional. Why did the outlawing of alcohol require a constitutional amendment and making it legal again require another amendment? Yet, why did making cocaine, marijuana, heroine, and meth illegal not require a constitutional amendment? Just asking.
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TommySama
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quote:
Ops- If you're referring to my Vitamin D3 recommendation with your placebo effect, I'd say to you that the only reason I started using Vitamin D like that was based on some studies that came out last year showing Vit D3 boosts the bodies T-cells to fight off infections.
I took your advice and starting taking regular doses of screwdrivers 5 to 10 times a day. Cold is history!
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OpsanusTau
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I wasn't referring specifically to the D3.

I'm glad you think it's working for you, and I hope that you don't develop D3 toxicity in the future - someone living in Hawaii is unlikely to need supplementation, and, you know, vitamin D3 is a steroid hormone.
(steroid hormone, yes it is. You are taking steroids.)
There is an upper intake limit, and it seems like you are inside that - but it does bioaccumulate, so just be aware that you could poison yourself by taking too much.

So, yes, there are biological effects, many of the effects are awesome for health, and the ones on various immune cells are beginning to be understood. And yes, T cell response is dependent on adequate Vitamin D3.

But more is not always better, so be careful with that.

And please, please please DO NOT recommend high oral intake of Vitamin D3 to pregnant women or babies, okay? It's a steroid hormone, bad things can happen.

(Myself, I tan periodically in the winter, because you can't overdose on Vitamin D produced by UV exposure, and it's unclear that ingested D3 has exactly the same effects as naturally produced.)

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