Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Is Patriotism a moral or ethical good? (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Is Patriotism a moral or ethical good?
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Perhaps, does that mean you are going to object if someone says women first on the lifeboat? "

I'm personally a pretty chivalrous guy. But your wife ahead of my unconscious brother (so he can't decide for himself)? I don't know. And to add: Ahead of my unconscious adult son? No. Hell no.

"But we, as a society value children more than adults. "

It's a biological thing. We've already reproduced. We need to ensure they do too.

"Ok, what particular trait is so inherent that it can never be changed?

Is the point. Nothing is. You choose what you are at any given point, and can change what you are. Fictional case in point: Darth Vader at the end of "Return" (episode 6). He spent the entire war being evil, but at that point chose to be good.

[ January 07, 2011, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jordan
Member
Member # 2159

 - posted      Profile for Jordan   Email Jordan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
JWatts:
[D]oes that mean you are going to object if someone says women first on the lifeboat?

I'm not saying it would make you necessarily a bad person. I am saying if it's my wife versus you, she goes and you stay; and if it's your wife versus me, I'll suck it up and let her ahead of me in line. I wouldn't let you ahead of me in line.

That's very different from me. [Smile] I have no idea how I'd behave in a situation like that, but without more information I wouldn't distinguish between either you or your wife. Given the choice, I would prefer for my boyfriend to get on before either of you. I like to think I'd let both of you on ahead of me, but I have no idea how far my courage would stretch.

My main concern, if organising lifeboats were up to me, would be with getting children, pregnant women and weak swimmers on first. I suppose women are, on average, likely to be weaker swimmers, but I'd put a man who couldn't swim on before a non-pregnant woman who could in a heartbeat.

I honestly do not, and never have, empathised with or even really understood the motivation for letting women go first. Though I understand that some people do consider it important, no matter how hard I strain I just cannot appreciate why. Perhaps my female-dominated upbringing has some bearing on this? (For most of my formative years, my immediate family consisted of a single mother, separated grandmother, widowed great-grandmother and two sisters.)

Posts: 2147 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jordan:
My main concern, if organising lifeboats were up to me, would be with getting children, pregnant women and weak swimmers on first. I suppose women are, on average, likely to be weaker swimmers, but I'd put a man who couldn't swim on before a non-pregnant woman who could in a heartbeat.

What would be your priority if there was no chance of survival for those left behind? Assume the boat is sinking in frigid waters and the ability to swim was irrelevant.

If you still would want to ensure that children go first, then we agree that children are inherently more valuable that adults (all things being equal).

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jordan
Member
Member # 2159

 - posted      Profile for Jordan   Email Jordan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
JWatts:
What would be your priority if there was no chance of survival for those left behind? Assume the boat is sinking in frigid waters and the ability to swim was irrelevant.

If you still would want to ensure that children go first, then we agree that children are inherently more valuable that adults (all things being equal).

We're agreed on the children. [Smile] I would prefer to say that they have a lot more life to live than that they're "more valuable"; in terms of years-of-human-life saved, more are saved by rescuing a child than an adult.

If the probability of survival were essentially nil, I'd prefer to run with that reasoning and go in order of age: if you're fifty, you've had more chance to live your life than someone who's twenty, so it seems like a worse exchange for them to give up another sixty years so you can have another thirty.

Posts: 2147 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carlotta
Member
Member # 3117

 - posted      Profile for Carlotta   Email Carlotta   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I'd agree with that reasoning, with the exception that if the 50 year old's death would cause a lot more pain for his family than the 30 year old's... say the 50 year old's family had just lost two other family members that year but the 30 year old was single and had no family.

At this point we're not saying that one life is more valuable than another but just trying to minimize the aggregate suffering.

Posts: 1318 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, children, agreed. I think we weren't really talking about that when the notion of "some people more worthy than others" was first raised, so your technical correction is accepted on children, not nearly as much on women. But other than that?
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1