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Author Topic: Maybe I was too hasty ...
AI Wessex
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"Now the real question for me is, after over 3 years and all that money, why now? There was nothing there, nothing to hide. Why all that money and effort?"

Suppose all you like. You've been dead wrong about every fact and interpretation so far, and it doesn't surprise me that you are still reaching for more rat poison.

"Looks like everyone want to "waste" some time on this AI!

I think of birthers as not unlike terrorists. It doesn't matter that they're wrong, they only want to create chaos. We can't let them win, even once. You are a particularly nasty example of that kind of thinking. I say this because you even count it as a victory that you caused people to respond to you.

Seriously, man, what is wrong with you?

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Wayward Son
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quote:
All this culminates in Hawaii finally deciding the policy that was never the policy before is no longer the policy again ... or something. So obvious deception, huge sums of money spent to suppress, policies shifting back and forth to provide cover for Barry and a rather authoritative claim it does not exist. What conclusion should anyone draw?
That you should vet your sources much better than you do, G2. [LOL]

Look at your list. Some are obvious lies ("Barry spends 100's of thousands if not millions to suppress any request to see the certificate.") Others are wild suppositions ("Abercrombie... says it's there and he's seen it. This is later proven to be a lie." Since it apparently exists, how do you know he didn't see it?). None of it bears the weight of scrutiny.

The fact that you fell for this obvious deception by the Right hook, line and sinker just shows that, when it comes to Barry, you'd rather believe a lie than the obvious truth.

What's the conclusion? That you shouldn't believe these guys you're listening to. [Roll Eyes]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
All this culminates in Hawaii finally deciding the policy that was never the policy before is no longer the policy again ... or something. So obvious deception, huge sums of money spent to suppress, policies shifting back and forth to provide cover for Barry and a rather authoritative claim it does not exist. What conclusion should anyone draw?
That you should vet your sources much better than you do, G2. [LOL]

Look at your list. Some are obvious lies ("Barry spends 100's of thousands if not millions to suppress any request to see the certificate.") Others are wild suppositions ("Abercrombie... says it's there and he's seen it. This is later proven to be a lie." Since it apparently exists, how do you know he didn't see it?). None of it bears the weight of scrutiny.

The fact that you fell for this obvious deception by the Right hook, line and sinker just shows that, when it comes to Barry, you'd rather believe a lie than the obvious truth.

What's the conclusion? That you shouldn't believe these guys you're listening to. [Roll Eyes]

You mean don't listen to the media? I source all of that throughout the thread and it's all pretty much mainstream reporting. I think you're right, the MSM is completely unreliable but whaddya gonna do? We have to go with what is reported. But look at your post, most of your points are *obvious* logical fallacies. The fact that you rely almost 100% on fallacies just shows that, when it comes to Barry, you'd rather believe anything that makes him look good.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
But look at your post, most of your points are *obvious* logical fallacies.
What? His post attempts to argue that your sources are providing you with bad information that you should not trust. Where's the fallacy in his supporting observations?
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Now the real question for me is, after over 3 years and all that money, why now? There was nothing there, nothing to hide. Why all that money and effort?"

Suppose all you like. You've been dead wrong about every fact and interpretation so far, and it doesn't surprise me that you are still reaching for more rat poison.

This is argumentum ad nauseum. You seem to think if you repeat something often enough it's true. The fact is, I quoted from multiple sources and you rely on logical fallacy as usual.

"Looks like everyone want to "waste" some time on this AI!

quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I think of birthers as not unlike terrorists. It doesn't matter that they're wrong, they only want to create chaos. We can't let them win, even once. You are a particularly nasty example of that kind of thinking. I say this because you even count it as a victory that you caused people to respond to you.

Seriously, man, what is wrong with you?

Birthers are terrorists? You're think birthers are terrorists and think something is wrong with me? Your moral compass is broken, you're like a child that repeats anything he hears thinking it's clever. Something is seriously wrong with you and the ilk that makes these kinds of comparisons.
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Aris Katsaris
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Taxation is slavery.
Birthers are terrorists.
Downloading music is probably genocide.

Anyone still wonders why I hate analogies?

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MattP
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quote:
I source all of that throughout the thread and it's all pretty much mainstream reporting.
Nope. The claim about money spent was invented by WND - they looked at the entire legal budget for the campaign and assumed that it was all spent fighting birther nonsense. There is absolutely zero evidence to support this claim. Some other outlets repeated this claim, but it is all sourced to WND, which sources it to their fertile imagination.

The "refused to authenticate" bit is equally dubious. That's from a WND reporter that cold-called a Hawaii vital records office to request an on-the-spot, over-the-phone, look-at-a-photo-on-the-internet authentication. Go ahead and call them yourself and ask them to authenticate an online image of a certificate. It doesn't matter whether you actually have one to show because they're not going to even check to see if it's there before politely declining.

[ April 28, 2011, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
But look at your post, most of your points are *obvious* logical fallacies.
What? His post attempts to argue that your sources are providing you with bad information that you should not trust. Where's the fallacy in his supporting observations?
G2 seems to have discovered that there is such a thing as a logical fallacy very recently, because accusing others of it is his new preferred attack and defense. He doesn't appear to know what one is, though, so I would keep that in mind when challenging his application of it. Recall the observation made by Inigo Montoya: "you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." [Big Grin]
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cherrypoptart
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How much money was spent and whose money was it?

I don't know. Let's see a number.

All I know is that if I ask my lawyer to take a look at something, it usually costs me at least $50, and that's probably cheap.

If a lawyer actually had to go to court to say something or have a paper typed up and mail it or hand something to a judge, I can imagine that costing well above some non-zero sum. How much?

I don't know. Ask Obama and see what he says. It's a fair question though, especially if it's tax dollars. Let's keep rolling on the Transparency Train! Choo! Choo!

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Wayward Son
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quote:
I source all of that throughout the thread and it's all pretty much mainstream reporting. I think you're right, the MSM is completely unreliable but whaddya gonna do?
Except that the "mainstream reporting" you are sourcing is not reports from the MSM, but the MSM quoting others. You can't go blame the messenger. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
The fact that you rely almost 100% on fallacies just shows that, when it comes to Barry, you'd rather believe anything that makes him look good.
I'll take this to mean that I was over the line when I said that you believed these lies because they made Barry look bad (since, as has been pointed out, I made no logical fallacies in this particular instance). If so, you're right. I should not have made any assumptions about the reasons for your actions. I apologize for that.

So rather than have me speculate, why don't you explain why you believed these lies? I think it would be instructive for yourself and for other members in the forum, since we all may be making similar mistakes.

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AI Wessex
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Cherry, you already provided a source that answered that question:
quote:
"He spent $2 million in legal fees trying on to get away from this issue, and if it weren't an issue, why wouldn't he just solve it?" he said. "I wish he would because if he doesn't, it's one of the greatest scams in the history of politics and in the history, period. You are not allowed to be a president if you're not born in this country. Right now, I have real doubts."
You've got that fact, so what more do you need to know?
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Wayward Son
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quote:
It's a fair question though, especially if it's tax dollars.
It's a fair question if it is a fair question, which it probably isn't.

You see, you can't just ask the court to give you someone's birth certificate. You have no reason to do so. You need to provide a legitimate reason that the courts should compell someone to provide it to you.

So what "legitimate reason" was given to ask for Obama's birth certificate? After all, he had all ready provided all official documents the courts would require. So what reason would be given to ask for more information? Off-hand, I would say it would be something like "Obama is not qualified to be President because he was not born in the United States." Right?

So when Obama defended himself from producing his Long-Form Birth Certificate, it was because he was defending his own Presidency.

So the fair question is not how much was spent in court to keep his long-form birth certificate from being exposed. The fair question is how much was spent in court defending his Presidency from spurious accusations.

Now you might be very curious to know that sum, but frankly, I am not, unless it is to criticize the Birthers for wasting our taxpayer money. [Mad]

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velcro
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G2

I'm going to say it louder, since you ignored my last request.

DO YOU BELIEVE THE RECENTLY RELEASED BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS VALID?

Thank you. (Channeling Sister Mary Elephant)

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cherrypoptart
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> Wayward Son


> You see, you can't just ask the court to give you someone's birth certificate. You have no reason to do so. You need to provide a legitimate reason that the courts should compel someone to provide it to you.

Some people asked the courts. People sue for everything and anything every day.

But perhaps the more important thing that was done is that citizens asked our government to provide information. We have a right to ask. I'm sure it has something to do with freedom of speech, petitioning the government, and representative democracy in which we have a say in things.

Do you have any idea what every member of the military goes through when they join? Let me just put it this way. Parts of the process are quite intimate.

Asking to see the President's long form birth certificate with the attending physician's signature on it isn't asking too much. Asking how much OUR HARD EARNED MONEY our government is spending and what they are spending it on isn't asking for too much either. These are our employees. We're the boss. They do what WE say, and we shouldn't let things get twisted around so it's the reverse. Maybe too late for that in too many ways, but this is one small yet symbolic victory in the long struggle to make our government answer to us, to tell them how it is, to take them outside and show them what it's like, instead of letting their iron fist grab us by the throat and squeeze our windpipes into silence and letting them take a hot poker to our collective eyeball, blinding us as they inform us that we can see all we need to see just fine even if we're half blind.

No. I refuse. Now they know. We've got both eyes opened and WE are the ones watching THEM.

I'm not sure how to convince you that that is a good thing, but it definitely is.

We just had a two year face off stare down with the government, and they blinked.

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MattP
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quote:
Some people asked the courts.
Well sure, but since these were frivolous suits none of them went to trial.

quote:
Asking to see the President's long form birth certificate with the attending physician's signature on it isn't asking too much.
Yes, actually it is because the purpose of the request is a fishing expedition with the goal of disqualifying a president which is viewed by some as "other" or worse. No one asked for Bush's long form certificate.

Obama provided a legal birth certificate long ago and, despite your protestations to the contrary, such a birth certificate could not have been granted for someone born outside of Hawaii. The rule that allows that sort of situation wasn't enacted until 21 years after Obama was born.

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cherrypoptart
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How would the short form indicate whether or not the birth was a home birth or a non-hospital birth?

Then, how would the government distinguish between a home birth and a birth abroad?

All we'd have for "evidence" is the word of the parents and the grandparents, and the law was sufficiently vague to allow them to think of the birth as Hawaiian no matter where it actually occurred because the mother was a Hawaiian resident.

Now as evidence we have the signature of the attending physician and the name of the hospital.

Also, perhaps you missed it but Tom and I went over this and agreed. And why should there be disagreement when it's clear as a bright Hawaiian day. Hawaii chooses who is Hawaiian.

They also choose what, if any, evidence they will use as a basis for that decision.

Here it is, posted just a couple of pages back:

BC4. If a child is born in Hawaii, for whom no physician or mid wife filed a certificate of live birth, and for whom no Delayed Certificate was filed before the first birthday, then a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth could be issued upon testimony of an adult (including the subject person [i.e. the birth child as an adult]) if the Office of the Lieutenant Governor was satisfied that a person was born in Hawaii, provided that the person had attained the age of one year. (See Section 57-40 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961.) In 1955 the “secretary of the Territory” was in charge of this procedure. In 1960 it was transferred to the Office of the Lieutenant Governor (“the lieutenant governor, or his secretary, or such other person as he may designate or appoint from his office” §338-41 [in 1961])."

What does that mean?

To me it means that the government of Hawaii decides who gets a Hawaiian birth certificate no matter where they were born.

All you have to do is "satisfy" the Office of the Lieutenant Governor. There are no evidenciary requirements at all.

I do see some distinctions there between Certificates of Live Birth, Certifications of Live Birth, and Certificates of Hawaiian Birth that may muddy the waters and cause confusion, so there is room to quibble.

But we don't have to worry about any of those possibilities now with the attending physician's signature. There is no more ambiguity. It clears everything right up.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
How would the short form indicate whether or not the birth was a home birth or a non-hospital birth?
How does your driver's license indicate what you scored on your driving exam? Where does it indicate whether you were tested on parallel parking or three point turns or both?

The birth certificate it the document that indicates that all of that information has been checked to the satisfaction of the State issuing it, and that it vouches for your right to claim it as your place of birth.

The specifics are for the state to use in evaluating that claim. Once it's issued the certificate, that data is no longer relevant, just the shorter document that affirms that it has all been checked to the satisfaction of the issuing state and thus does not need to be checked again.

quote:
To me it means that the government of Hawaii decides who gets a Hawaiian birth certificate no matter where they were born.
Absolutely. And once they decide to give you that, you are by definition, considered a natural born citizen short positive proof that you got it fraudulently.

[ April 28, 2011, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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AI Wessex
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"Taxation is slavery.
Birthers are terrorists.
Downloading music is probably genocide.

Anyone still wonders why I hate analogies?"

People who hate analogies are curmudgeons. Now *there's* one that sticks!

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
But we don't have to worry about any of those possibilities now with the attending physician's signature. There is no more ambiguity. It clears everything right up.

That is one powerful signature.
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hobsen
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Obama's long form birth certificate, if I remember, specifies "attendant" rather than "attending physician." In theory the man could have been a nurse. Rather than endless discussion of these issues, I should like to know where the man was born, how old he was, where he attended medical school, how long he was attached to that hospital, and so forth. If he was forty and had been on the hospital staff fifteen years, his signature along with that of Obama's mother should pretty well settle the question of where Obama was born. So if anyone in the Internet community has been industrious enough to do some digging on such matters, it would be nice if someone posted the results to this thread. Personally I cannot even read his scribbled signature to make out the full name he used.

[ April 28, 2011, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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TomDavidson
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I can't actually tell if you're engaging in satire, hobs.
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velcro
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Still waiting for G2..
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AI Wessex
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G2 don't do requests, especially if it would muddy his message.
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ken_in_sc
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I think the attendant's name was Ukulele. He had the parking concession.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by velcro:
Still waiting for G2..

Oh, sorry. I missed this ... but better late than never! Your question was, " DO YOU BELIEVE THE RECENTLY RELEASED BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS VALID? "

I thought it was back then, no reason to suspect otherwise. But recent events (which prompted me to recall this thread) now make me 100% unsure. There is compelling evidence that there was a fraud perpetrated and the released document is fake.
quote:
“All he has to do is demand the Hawaii Department of Health release to the American public and to a panel of certified court-authorized forensic examiners all original 1961 paper, microfilm and computer birth records the Hawaii Department of Health has in its possession.”
Wonder why he refuses to do so?

[ March 01, 2012, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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DonaldD
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Oh please, please, please let the birthers gain traction and publicity between now and November...

Certainly, if Obama is not a natural born citizen it is important that this comes out before the election.

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G2
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meh, I don't think it much matters any more.
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cherrypoptart
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This was part of the conversation earlier and information relevant to it is up there on WND.


Cherry "Quote When did Obama's mom supposedly fly from Kenya to Hawaii according to the non-birthers?"


Pyrtolin >>> She was with child already in Kenya

"Was she? What proof do you have that she went to Kenya at all?"

----------------------------------------------

That's a good question, and apparently the proof has been erased from the official government records.


http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certificate-a-fraud/

"Also, records of Immigration and Naturalization Service cards filled out by passengers arriving on international flights originating outside the United States in the month of August 1961, examined at the National Archives in Washington, D.C., are missing records for the week of President Obama’s birth."


So that situation of the missing records definitely needs to be resolved.

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AI Wessex
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Ornery seems to be getting weirder by the minute.

Has ANYONE here seen Romney's birth certificate?!??! Can anyone provide the information described below regarding Romney's supposed birth in Detroit?
quote:
Arpaio emphasized that the Hawaii Department of Health needs to provide, as part of the full disclosure, evidence regarding the chain of custody of all Obama birth records, including paper, microfilm and electronic records to eliminate the possibility that a forger or forgers may have tampered with the birth records.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
“All he has to do is demand the Hawaii Department of Health release to the American public and to a panel of certified court-authorized forensic examiners all original 1961 paper, microfilm and computer birth records the Hawaii Department of Health has in its possession.”
Wonder why he refuses to do so?
Sounds kind of like an invasion of privacy for everyone else in those records, don't you think?
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G2
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Thinking about this last night and the only thing really relevant is the timing of it (the left certainly does not care and besides the horse is out of the brass bra, too late to put a pointy hat on it now). Anyone think it's just random coincidence the results of this "investigation" is released during the heat of the GOP primaries as we run up to the general election?
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DonaldD
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What do you think, G2?
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G2
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I think Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
What do you think, G2?
G2 is not a person, he is a persona, and so he doesn't think and can't think. G2's author just writes G2 to "think" this or "think" that to the extent that G2's role demands it.
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Wayward Son
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I think Arpaio doesn't even realize there is a Republican nomination race going on. He's more worried about getting reelected, since his term ends this year.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
What do you think, G2?
G2 is not a person, he is a persona, and so he doesn't think and can't think. G2's author just writes G2 to "think" this or "think" that to the extent that G2's role demands it.
Oh arith, you hurt G2'th feelingth. Make G2 cry. Tho tho thad now. Maybe thomeday we can all be ath brilliant ath you. [Roll Eyes] [LOL]
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
I think Arpaio doesn't even realize there is a Republican nomination race going on. He's more worried about getting reelected, since his term ends this year.

That's probably closer to the truth of the timing than some people (or thouold I thay "thome people) are willing to admit. I think it's a little bigger than just a local sheriff's election though.
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AI Wessex
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He must be unusually dumb in that case, because he endorsed Perry back in November. Of course, that was dumb.

On top of his intellectual shortcomings, G2 has now come down with a serious case of lisp. Lucky for him Obamacare will cover that.

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Aris Katsaris
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G2, have you ever tried being a person instead of a persona? You may end up liking it better.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
G2, have you ever tried being a person instead of a persona? You may end up liking it better.

Sure. Have you? Give it a try ...
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