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Author Topic: The American Community Survey
DonaldD
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quote:
Combining that report with the focus on veterans in the survey, I question the motives of the government. Maybe they are just looking for new places to put VA hospitals.
You think the shadow cabal government in black men don't have better methods of keeping track of specific veterans than decadal self-reporting?
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TomDavidson
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Like, y'know, the money they give to veterans every year, which has to be mailed to a specific address?
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cherrypoptart
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I may have found the information I've been looking for here:

http://www.truthistreason.net/how-to-legally-refuse-to-participate-in-the-census-survey

Here is one illustrative court case, and whether it can be applied to this situation would apparently require the Census people or the Department of Justice to actually fine someone so the issue could be taken to court.

Let's also just remember that nobody has been fined over the census, just bullied and harassed, phoned at all hours, peeped in on in their houses, threatened, etc.

If the government doesn't want to levy the fine and they don't want the case going to court because they are confident they will lose the case on Constitutional grounds, what does that say about the government to which we're supposed to entrust our privacy? It tells me they know very well that they are violating our Constitutional rights. If that's the case, and it's quite clear that it is, then why should we trust them?

> Interstate Commerce Commission v. Brimson, 154 U.S. 447, 479 (May 26, 1894)

> “Neither branch of the legislative department [House of Representatives or Senate], still less any merely administrative body [insert Census Bureau], established by congress, possesses, or can be invested with, a general power of making inquiry into the private affairs of the citizen. Kilbourn v. Thompson, 103 U.S. 168, 190. We said in Boyd v. U.S., 116 U. S. 616, 630, 6 Sup. Ct. 524,―and it cannot be too often repeated,―that the principles that embody the essence of constitutional liberty and security forbid all invasions on the part of government and it’s employees of the sanctity of a man’s home and the privacies of his life. As said by Mr. Justice Field in Re Pacific Ry. Commission, 32 Fed. 241, 250, ‘of all the rights of the citizen, few are of greater importance or more essential to his peace and happiness than the right of personal security, and that involves, not merely protection of his person from assault, but exemption of his private affairs, books, and papers from inspection and scrutiny of others. Without the enjoyment of this right, all others would lose half their value.’” [The bracketed words added for clarification]

------------------------------------------

The author goes into more detail on that web site and the reasoning is quite persuasive and compelling.

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edgmatt
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The issue is that I have no choice about answering the questions. It doesn't matter what I THINK are the reasons for why the government wants this info. Some people can benefit from it, like Athelstan, some people have no reason to answer those questions.

As Cherry pointed out: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

so I shouldn't forced to answer these questions. I have no problem with the government attempting to get the info, for whatever reason they want. It should be up to me whether or not I provide any answers. When I filled out my census, there were a few questions I had no problem answering, so I did. The rest I left blank.

The argument is in the choice.

"It's been done before, and more so" is not a good argument for allowing an action.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by edgmatt:
The issue is that I have no choice about answering the questions. It doesn't matter what I THINK are the reasons for why the government wants this info.

Hey, what are you crying about? The US Government says it's perfectly harmless. You're not some kind of rabble-rouser are you? [Wink]
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edgmatt
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rabble rabble rabble!

The government is made up of people. I don't give out my information to random people, I don't give out information to some people I know. If my neighbor, best friend, boss, or wife was asking me some of those questions, I would want to know what for. I don't see why I should feel differently about other people whom I have never met. On top of that, the people in the government have the potential to have power over aspects of my life. I don't want certain aspects my personal information to be in the hands of those same people.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I don't see why I should feel differently about other people whom I have never met.
I would be very surprised if you didn't already provide a lot of this sort of information to people whom you have never met without a second thought.
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
When even many in the government don't trust the government, that's got to tell you something. By the way, I can appreciate the difficulty the pro-government intrusiveness into your private life side will have convincing borderline or full-on paranoids about why this is a good thing, so your patience is noted and applauded.
[Smile]
Well, I'm not sure I'd describe myself as "pro-government intrusiveness", nor do I myself think that the ACS is a good thing. I also don't think it's super scary, though, and I think that the people getting upset about it are making mountains out of molehills.

The plain fact is that I assume that anyone with sufficient money and/or power could find out anything they wanted to about me, given motivation. I don't like it, but that's the way it is; so a little governmental questionnaire is not really going to tip the scale about how little privacy I have. But it also doesn't really matter - my life isn't that interesting, so I can't imagine anyone paying very much attention to it.

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LetterRip
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The Census was explicitly part of the Constitution. It is rather perplexing people asking if the government has the right, when it is layed out right in the constitution that yes the government has the right to do this.

If you don't like the questions being asked, feel free to write your congressman requesting specific questions be removed.

The reaction that this is some sort of left wing conspiracy to gather your information to round up right wingers makes you look like a nutter. This is the same information that has been asked for more than a hundred years and is perhaps the least intrusive long form survey in the past 100 years.

Almost every single question could probably be answered from public sources - ie what mail is sent to your address can be scanned by the US Postal service; even the type of mail is public record (they can track every location you have recieved mail from); they have access to all school records; they can probably purchase your entire utility history. They can scan your complete title history; they could get copies of all of your credit card transactions and determine the major appliances you have purchased and when and probably even the exact make and model.

About the only thing they can't get ready access to is if you have individuals below school age in your house; and individuals who are off the grid.

If they were really interested in invading your privacy, they wouldn't need to bother asking on the Census forms.

quote:
When even many in the government don't trust the government, that's got to tell you something.
In part it tells us that there isn't a filter for idealogy or paranoia to be hired by the government. Just by statistical chance you should have enormous numbers of individuals employed by the government who don't trust the government.

quote:
By the way, I can appreciate the difficulty the pro-government intrusiveness into your private life side will have convincing borderline or full-on paranoids about why this is a good thing, so your patience is noted and applauded.
Most of us are anti-government intrusiveness who have responded in this thread (ie most of us have objected to Echelon, unlawful wiretaps, government agencies getting around the privacy retstrictions by purchasing through private agencies or trading with foreign governments, etc.). However, most of us are realists instead of paranoid and delusional. Recognizing that the information that one might reasonably be paranoid about - the government already has through other means.

If you feel the need to make a pointless gesture on principle, then be my guest, but if you actually believe that in some way it will in any way prevent any unwanted intrusiveness or would be providing information that the government could not otherwise get quite easily if it were so inclined is delusional.

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LetterRip
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Regarding the census and legal challenges, perhaps you should read this

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/why/constitutional.php

Your source doesn't appear to have any background in law. If it went to court, you would pretty much certainly lose. Fortunately for you, the Census bureau doesn't feel it is worthwhile to actually go to court on an individual basis, and thus practically speaking it is a moot point. If however enough individuals refuse to fill it out that it becomes a nuisance they might do a few example cases just to demonstrate to that they can in fact do so.

[ January 31, 2011, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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edgmatt
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quote:
I would be very surprised if you didn't already provide a lot of this sort of information to people whom you have never met without a second thought.
Well then, very surprised you be. I suggest starting your next post with: [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]
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yossarian22c
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Let's go through these intrusive questions and see how many of them are that private.

quote:
"Housing" "Does this house, apartment, or mobile home have COMPLETE kitchen facilities; that is, 1) a sink with piped water, 2) a stove or range, and 3) a refrigerator?"
Considering that local governments require building permits and plans this is already in the county clerks office somewhere.

quote:
"Is there telephone service available in this house, apartment, or mobile home from which you can both make and receive calls?"
Phone book. I guess you could be unlisted but if a government agency called the phone company I bet they would turn over your information without notifying you or asking for a warrant.
I'm just glad the government is asking if I have a phone instead of listening to my phone calls. [Wink]

quote:
"Which FUEL is used MOST for heating this house, apartment, or mobile home?"
Building plans again.

quote:
"LAST MONTH, what was the cost of electricity for this house, apartment, or mobile home?"
I doubt the electric company guards your data that much closer than the phone company, not to mention that anyone could walk up and read your meter.

quote:
"At any time DURING THE PAST 12 MONTHS, did anyone in this household receive Food Stamps?"

Already in a government database somewhere.

quote:
"Do you or any member of this household have a second mortgage or a home equity loan on THIS property?"
If your mortgage has been securitized then the information is out there for investors, I think the government could find it assuming they don't already own or guarantee the note.

quote:
"What is the main reason members of this
household are staying at this address?"

Shelter?

quote:
"Person 1"
"Where was this person born?"

See birth certificate/in a government data base already.

quote:
"Is this person a CITIZEN of the United States?"
SS#, I think they know.

quote:
"Did this person live in this house or
apartment 1 year ago?"

Been to the DMV recently?

quote:

"Has this person given birth to any children in
the past 12 months?"

Birth certificate again.

quote:
"Does this person have any of his/her own grandchildren under the age of 18 living in
this house or apartment?"

This may be the most personal but if it is true it is likely most of the people you know are already aware of this fact.

quote:
"LAST WEEK, did this person do ANY work for either pay or profit?"
W2.

quote:
"At what location did this person work LAST WEEK?"
W2.

quote:
"How did this person usually get to work LAST WEEK?"
All your friends, neighbors and coworkers already know this answer.

quote:
"What time did this person usually leave home to go to work LAST WEEK?"
All coworkers already know this answer.

quote:
"For whom did this person work?"
W2.

quote:
"What kind of business or industry was this?"
W2/Google.

quote:
"What was this person’s total income during the PAST 12 MONTHS?"
W2.


Almost every piece of information is already in a government data base somewhere or can be observed from the street.


Would this survey have freaked you out as much 3 years ago?

[ January 31, 2011, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: yossarian22c ]

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cherrypoptart
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If they want to accumulate the data that way, then that's fine. I remember one time driving down the street there were some government workers at a checkpoint in the road giving every driver a piece of paper describing how they were counting the cars going through there at this specific time to determine if the road should be widened or a toll road built or something. Maybe they kept track of the cars by just counting how much paper they had left and subtracting that from what they had when starting.

I don't like the part where they know that nobody is home for most of the week and the way I filled mine out that's what they know now. I pretty much just go back on the weekends to check on things, pick up the mail and so forth. I didn't like letting them know that I don't have homeowner's insurance either. That makes me uncomfortable, not having it as well as letting them know that.

Since that's where I vote, I'm not sure if I opened myself up to voter fraud or not. Since I lived there most of the year but not much during the last couple of months, I suppose I could be okay. I didn't mention the illegals I'm charging rent to live in my house while it's unoccupied, or the escort/maid service I'm letting them run out of my house, and I do feel a little bad about not putting that on the form. I have no idea about the information of most of those people, and I can't speak enough Spanish to ask. It's a real shame when the government makes criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens and violates our 5th Amendment right not to have to incriminate ourselves.

---------------------------------------------

> Would this survey have freaked you out as much 3 years ago?

It probably bothers me more now that Obama is in office. However, I realize this has been in the works for some time. The funny thing is that even Bush balked at it.

http://notoacs.blogspot.com/2006/07/bush-said-no-well.html

"Census 2000 too nosey?
Republicans criticize long-form questions
March 31, 2000
Web posted at: 3:40 p.m. EST (2040 GMT)

Why answer them? It's required by law.
But presumptive GOP presidential nominee George W. Bush said Thursday
he's not sure he would fill out the detailed version of the questionnaire, which
goes to one in six of the country's 115 million households.

"We want as accurate a count as possible, but I can understand why people
don't want to give over that information to the government," Bush said Thursday
during a campaign stop in Milwaukee. "And if I have the long form, I'm not sure I
would, either."

The Texas governor stopped short of advising people not to complete the form.

But he said, "If they're worried about the government intruding into their personal
lives, they ought to think about it."

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I didn't mention the illegals I'm charging rent to live in my house while it's unoccupied, or the escort/maid service I'm letting them run out of my house, and I do feel a little bad about not putting that on the form.
*laugh*
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edgmatt
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yossarian - "Private" is a subjective term. That is the a major part of this debate. People want to choose for themselves whatever it is they deem private, to be private.

Just because I don't think giving a description of my kitchen is particularly intrusive, doesn't mean no one else is allowed to think it is.

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edgmatt
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quote:
Almost every piece of information is already in a government data base somewhere or can be observed from the street.

Then why the need to have me fill out a questionnaire that I don't want to fill out?

I think I brought this up in a different thread when the census was out and about:

My best friend had refused to fill out any part of the census save the question "how many people live here?" on the premise that it's none of any one's business. He received several notices that he "could" be fined up to $500, that he must fill out these forms so they know who he is and they need his information. he kept refusing, and they kept sending the notices. At one point he asked me my opinion and I said: If they fine you, how do they know who to send the ticket too? If they try to arrest you, how do they know who to arrest? IF they can do either or both of those things, then they already have enough information about you. If they can't do either of those things because they don't have enough information about you, what are you worried about?

He never answered the questions, and there was never any issue later.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
People want to choose for themselves whatever it is they deem private, to be private.
*grin* And, again, I am telling you that the federal government is monitoring everything you do on the Internet. It knows your Facebook password. (Seriously.) It has access to your credit card information without a warrant. Fighting this thing over the census is incredibly, incredibly dumb, if people aren't willing to fight the same battle over the Patriot Act (which they aren't.)
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edgmatt
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*frown* And, again, then why the need to fill out the questionnaire that I don't want to fill out?

*frown* And, again, "It's been done before, and more so" is not a good argument for allowing an action.

"Fighting this thing over the census is incredibly, incredibly dumb, if people aren't willing to fight the same battle over the Patriot Act (which they aren't.) "

*grin* Do you know my position on the Patriot Act? No, you don't, because that is something I keep private.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
And, again, then why the need to fill out the questionnaire that I don't want to fill out?
Well, for one thing, the questionnaire provides information to agencies that will actually use it to craft intelligent public policy, as opposed to our police state. The police state has its own info, but it doesn't share. The FBI may for its own purposes have already ascertained how many refrigerators you have, but they're not telling the Energy Star people. *laugh*

quote:
Do you know my position on the Patriot Act? No, you don't, because that is something I keep private.
Then your position on the Patriot Act is irrelevant. If you are silent on it, and are not silent on the census, you're a tool.

[ February 01, 2011, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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edgmatt
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I have to speak up on every issue, or else I am a tool?

"He who knows and knows he knows is Wise: follow him.
He who knows and knows not he knows is asleep: wake him.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is humble: teach him.
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not is a fool: avoid him."

You sir, are a fool.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I have to speak up on every issue, or else I am a tool?
No. What I said, specifically, was: if you are/were silent on the Patriot Act, and are not silent (i.e. choose to whine about) the census, you are a tool.
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Mariner
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Heh, this topic amuses me. While I'm nowhere near as paranoid as cherrypoptart, and I don't think the ACS is a huge deal, the arguments people are making in favor of it don't seem to be very effective.

The worst is probably the argument of inertia ("it's been around for centuries without any problems, so why should you be worried about it now?"). Besides the obvious counterexample of the Japanese internment, there is a blatant difference between 2010 and 1910 (or even 2010 and 1990). Tell me, how would a disgruntled nihilist census worker from 1910 who just wanted to stick it to the man release information on millions of Americans to the public at large? It'd be pretty darn impossible, that's how. And how would he now? Have we all forgotten about Wikileaks already? It's much simpler to dump massive amounts of data out into the public domain now, just as it is much simpler for the average person to search for and find specific pieces from that data dump. This is a brand new world out there that didn't exist 20 years ago.

Sure, you can argue that there's no moral reason to steal and release census data as opposed to Pfc Manning's data dumps. But why should data dumps come from a compelling moral reason? All it takes is one idiot with access. It could be done for fame, because of personal troubles at home, for money, or any number or reasons. We just had a nutcase kill a dozen people for no reason at all. If it's possible to do, then someone may very well do it.

Maybe it's not possible to do. I don't know. But after seeing classified documents get dumped, you can forgive me for not trusting government security.

The next argument that seems lame is that the government NEEDS this information for vital data. Um, no they don't. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of alternative ways to find this information. Some of them even less obtrusive. The services some have cited (EPA, DOT, DOE) would be far better served by obtaining different data. The government needs to know how much electricity the US uses? Go to the power plants, not the individual people. Needs to know how many cars are on the road? The only reason they need to know that is for traffic purposes, and it's far more useful (and easier!) to test the traffic on the individual roads they need to know. EPA needs to monitor emissions? Go to the actual sources of emissions, not the individual users.

But maybe there is some validity to that argument. It's just the arguments set forth aren't very good.

The last argument (and worse than the previous one) is that this is nothing compared to other intrusions of privacy that the government does, like searching through credit card purchases and the like. However, there are three counterarguments that make that assertion not seem so cut and dried:

- There is a valid end use for recording and storing credit card purchases. There is a valid use for a company storing our passwords. Not only is it a valid end use, but it is a valid end use for us, the ones who supply that information. Yes, by letting others see that data, we give up some of our privacy. But we get something of value in return (discounts at the supermarket, the ease of using plastic rather than paper money, the ease of on-line banking, etc). Consider it a cost of doing business. With the ACS, one could argue that there is no valid end use. And certainly, nothing of value is returned to the user for giving up his privacy.

- There is a way to opt-out of letting the government see what you purchase. And that is to purchase everything in cash. There is a way to opt-out of letting the government see who you contact. And that is to contact everyone in person. Yes, these may be difficult to do, but it is theoretically feasible. There is no way to opt out of the ACS.

- While the government may have access to the data, ultimately the data is in the hands of private companies. I realize that Orneryites, being predominantly leftwing, will disagree with me on this, but frankly I trust private companies to handle my secrets better than I trust the government to. This may be an alien concept to some, but I doubt it is to cherrypoptart.

So yeah, arguments against the ACS just seem weak to me. And, in fact, it seems to me that a slight adjustment can be made to the ACS to make everyone happy. Just make the stupid thing anonymous. Sure, the more paranoid folks out there won't believe it, but it would make most people happy, right? So why not throw cherry a bone and make everything safe? Sounds like a simple change to me.

Of course, this would invalidate Athelstan's argument that a census is good because it helps geneaologists 100 years down the road. But if that's the reason the government is spending my money on this stuff, we can close it down right now.

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DonaldD
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quote:
With the ACS, one could argue that there is no valid end use. And certainly, nothing of value is returned to the user for giving up his privacy.
One could argue that, but one would be wrong [Smile]
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LetterRip
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Mariner,

the argument has been that filling out the survey allows the black helicopters to track you.

The counter argument is that anything the black helicopter folks want, they have already via other sources and this does zilch to benefit them, however the non black helicopter agencies have requested specific data to help accomplish a number of different tasks that require these large statistical samples. While you may have found the examples weak due to their off the cuff nature, that doesn't mean that this is data that they could easily acquire in another manner.

For those interested here is the justification for each question and the federal statute that requires the data to be collected. If you want to get rid of a particular item being collected than the federal statute requiring the data needs to be eliminated.

ACS question justifications

As to anonymity, many agencies need to know how the data changed over time, so a survey at time X and family Y needs to be correlated with a survey at time Z and family Y. Which is essentially impossible to do with anonymity at the level of data collection.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The services some have cited (EPA, DOT, DOE) would be far better served by obtaining different data. The government needs to know how much electricity the US uses? Go to the power plants, not the individual people.
As someone who has been involved in precisely this sort of study, I need to point out that "the government" -- or agencies fully or partly funded by the government -- already does this. And then, once they know how much power is being used, they do things like check to see when that power is used, and by how many homes, and by which sorts of appliances (and by appliances of a certain age, which is relevant to measuring the success of replacement programs.)

The power plants won't tell you some of that. [Smile]

quote:
frankly I trust private companies to handle my secrets better than I trust the government to
I think even a moment of critical reflection -- or, for that matter, a few minutes spent Googling private information leaks -- will reveal the foolishness of this misplaced trust.
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JWatts
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I'd say the biggest issue this raises with me is the issue of choice. I don't really have a problem with answering the specific questions answered.

What I don't like is being Forced.

When I give information to a private company, I have a choice. If Lowe's Hardware asks me for a phone number, (and they always do) I say no and the Cashier types in all 1's. If they were to insist on a number, I would either make something up or go across to Home Depot.

But with this case, I have no choice. It's forced upon me. I pretty much like choices and don't like to be forced. Some people like to be told what to do, some people don't.

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MattP
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quote:
But with this case, I have no choice. It's forced upon me. I pretty much like choices and don't like to be forced. Some people like to be told what to do, some people don't.
This is nothing. The Patriot act is what should have you worried. Or stuff like this:
quote:
The House Republicans’ first major technology initiative is about to be unveiled: a push to force Internet companies to keep track of what their users are doing. A House panel chaired by Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin is scheduled to hold a hearing tomorrow morning to discuss forcing Internet providers, and perhaps Web companies as well, to store records of their users’ activities for later review by police.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20029393-281.html?tag=cnetRiver
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
This is nothing. The Patriot act is what should have you worried.

I don't like the Patriot Act either.

quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Or stuff like this:
The House Republicans’ first major technology initiative is about to be unveiled: a push to force Internet companies to keep track of what their users are doing.

It looks very similar to what Europe does and I hope it fails. I understand law enforcement would like it. I don't care, they are doing just fine without any such rules.
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cherrypoptart
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You've summed up the situation very nicely, Mariner.

I'll just add that I've taken many precautions against the other types of intrusions for privacy purposes, identity theft protection purposes, and for physical security purposes. And let me tell you it's not easy.

And now a lot of that's for naught because I have to fill out this survey. And I hadn't even thought of the data dump aspect of it!

I'll just give you one example of one of my brilliant side steps. You can get all of your groceries tracked if you get the Kroger card, so that's a voluntary arrangement and that's fine. But then, you can ask your mom who doesn't care if they know what she or you buys and you can use her phone number, with her permission, to not only get the discount but get a 10% senior savings too. And you can pick up some milk, bread, butter and sundries whenever you're on your way to visit her to justify it all.

You can use a slightly off facebook profile and tell your family and friends what you're doing so yes it has your real pictures but not quite your real name or other details. They may raise an eyebrow but in these days when employers are checking into all of this stuff it pays to be careful. You can also just sign on to look at how people are doing every couple of weeks and then cancel the account, so there would only be a very small window of opportunity once every while after midnight for anyone to see your profile. As Mariner says, you can also go with cash and face to face. There should always be an opt out option for personal information. I notice that President Obama used that opt-out option himself regarding much of his personal information, but then he doesn't allow the rest of us the same prerogative with even more sensitive information than what he's concealing, such as our current daily routines.

As for the Patriot Act, at least it didn't require me to rat myself out. This is like torture, being threatened if we don't tell the government what they want to know. It feels like we're no longer living in a free society, and now it's getting personal. That's really galling.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
This is like torture, being threatened if we don't tell the government what they want to know. It feels like we're no longer living in a free society, and now it's getting personal.
Because of census questions?
The government is logging all your Internet activity, and you feel tortured by questions that ask you about your appliances?

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MattP
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quote:
As for the Patriot Act, at least it didn't require me to rat myself out.
No need. They just take whatever info they want. As mentioned earlier, the black helicopter guys have their own means of getting whatever info they want. It's the benign agencies that aren't willing/able to use those tools that collect it openly through the survey.
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cherrypoptart
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The big difference is my internet activity is voluntary. There also is no fine for any of my lies.

I'm even happy for them to monitor it and hope they are learning something as well as occasionally finding themselves mildly amused.

I probably shouldn't admit it but my paranoia and ego kicked in a little bit when I got the survey, wondering if there might be a connection between that and my postings here and on yahoo. This stuff really isn't good for the mental state of paranoid people.

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TomDavidson
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Frankly, I think worrying about the census isn't good for the mental health of paranoid people, and it's a shame you've chosen a social circle that encourages it.
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LetterRip
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cherry,

if you are paranoid enough to truly believe that your postings here might get the government after you, in all seriousness you probably need to visit a psychiatrist.

About the only thing that would possibly get you any attention would be posting of a threat, and it wouldn't be a census form, you'd get a visit from the Secret Service and an interview.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
About the only thing that would possibly get you any attention would be posting of a threat, and it wouldn't be a census form, you'd get a visit from the Secret Service and an interview.

Nowadays you can get a visit from the SWAT team and an observation period in the psych ward, depending on what the threat was. Be careful about what you send out into the world, sometimes it comes back.
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cherrypoptart
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Well, LetterRip, Tom just pretty much told me they are monitoring everything, and don't forget the Carnivore program. You also apparently don't listen to enough of the Coast to Coast radio program.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/18/napolitano-internet-monitoring-needed-fight-homegrown-terrorism/

I notice that she talks about the full body scanners there and I suppose if the government is going to watch you butt naked and irradiate your private parts if you ride an airplane these census questions aren't the worst of it.

Of course, to just be sitting at home minding your own business and have the government grill you about your comings and goings is also a bit intrusive. I wonder which is worse, or where it'll stop.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Well, LetterRip, Tom just pretty much told me they are monitoring everything, and don't forget the Carnivore program. You also apparently don't listen to enough of the Coast to Coast radio program.
Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong to be paranoid. You're wrong to be paranoid about the census.
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Dave at Work
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quote:
Of course, this would invalidate Athelstan's argument that a census is good because it helps geneaologists 100 years down the road. But if that's the reason the government is spending my money on this stuff, we can close it down right now.
Of course the the parts of the census that genealologists find useful are the questions asked in the short form that was done last year and not the long form being discussed in this thread.

[ February 02, 2011, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Dave at Work ]

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MattP
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I work for large geneology-oriented company and I can assure you that we couldn't care less about the ACS data. We want names and dates (birth/death/marriage/baptism/military/etc.) and that's about it. We don't even index all the stuff that appears on the short form.
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LetterRip
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cherry,

you aren't paranoid to believe that every communication is being observed, just that anyone cares - the communications of probably just about every person on earth is being listened to. The recording is automatic and unless specific key words are mentioned your file doesn't get looked at. If it does get looked at it gets a quick glance and probably put back on ignore mode. You have to do things pretty significant for the government black helicopter folks to care about you.

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