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Author Topic: Planned Parenthood exposed
TomDavidson
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Wayward, it should be noted that in the video they discuss trying to leave intact the pieces of the fetus most likely desired for research. I don't think this is at all unreasonable, but the implication is that the people doing the dismembering are indeed conscious of the fact that an intact lung is worth considerably more than, say, an intact thigh, and will try to make cuts in ways that will not damage the most desirable tissue.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Wayward, it should be noted that in the video they discuss trying to leave intact the pieces of the fetus most likely desired for research. I don't think this is at all unreasonable, but the implication is that the people doing the dismembering are indeed conscious of the fact that an intact lung is worth considerably more than, say, an intact thigh, and will try to make cuts in ways that will not damage the most desirable tissue.

They would probably use the term "useful" rather than "desirable".
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Of course PP also contacted the FBI to have them investigate the prostitution angle. Aside from that this is pretty much empty outrage over the fact that they provided essential health services to people that needed those services

If you go into an ER with a gunshot wound, the ER docs aren't going to ask who shot you as a precondition to treating you.

The ER treats a gunshot wound and calls the police. You didnt know that?
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kmbboots
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Pete, I'm not sure how you get from "ER docs aren't going to ask who shot you as a precondition to treating you to not knowing that ER informs the police about gunshot wounds.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
I've worked at and with a number of places that ship things and it's not really a negotiable thing.
Seriously? Same price for USPS or FedEx overnight? Same price for giftwrapped or not? Of someone has a special request that the item be put in a series of 10 boxes, alternating bubble wrap and packing peanuts, with each box wrapped in a specific color or character print paper, then be hand delivered, it would cost exactly the same as a standard bulk rate envelope?

There's going to be differences in shipping and labor costs from someone who's fine with having the tissue shipped standard mail in a formaldehyde preservation solution and someone who wants the equivalent of a live organ transplant, with the specimen hand delivered immediately using dry ice to keep it chilled enough to prevent degradation. Or perhaps they want it sliced thin and pressed into microscope slides. That's a process that;s going to cost a different amount than anything mentioned above.

I'm pretty sure that your idea of Planned Parenthood being a agent for fedex and able to negotiate their rates is going to be a surprise to fedex. I'm unaware of any delivery service that would allow this but if PP is also a courier service then maybe that could happen. Is PP also a courier service?

I did not see any mention of preparing human organs in the manner you describe. Does PP also offer such research prep services?

You're kind of making things up to explain this.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:

They are intentionally dismembered. Whether during th initial procedure or afterward inoreperation for sale and shipping, at some point a human body is birken down into human parts.


Again, this is also true for organ donation. And again, not "sale". Stop saying "sale".
They negotiated for payment. What do you call it when someone negotiates payment for something?
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kmbboots
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"Fee". "Reimbursement". "Service charge". "Shipping and handling". "Storage fee".

For the nteenth time, the are not selling the organs, they are recouping their cost of providing them.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
I've worked at and with a number of places that ship things and it's not really a negotiable thing.
Seriously? Same price for USPS or FedEx overnight? Same price for giftwrapped or not? Of someone has a special request that the item be put in a series of 10 boxes, alternating bubble wrap and packing peanuts, with each box wrapped in a specific color or character print paper, then be hand delivered, it would cost exactly the same as a standard bulk rate envelope?

There's going to be differences in shipping and labor costs from someone who's fine with having the tissue shipped standard mail in a formaldehyde preservation solution and someone who wants the equivalent of a live organ transplant, with the specimen hand delivered immediately using dry ice to keep it chilled enough to prevent degradation. Or perhaps they want it sliced thin and pressed into microscope slides. That's a process that;s going to cost a different amount than anything mentioned above.

I'm pretty sure that your idea of Planned Parenthood being a agent for fedex and able to negotiate their rates is going to be a surprise to fedex. I'm unaware of any delivery service that would allow this but if PP is also a courier service then maybe that could happen. Is PP also a courier service?

You're suggesting that PP has come kind of contract with FedEx or UPS that they can only use one particular service and not negotiate for which service is most appropriate to the request, even to the point of hiring a courier service if immediate cold delivery is needed?
I did not see any mention of preparing human organs in the manner you describe. Does PP also offer such research prep services? Why are you making up irrelevant things about choosing what price FedEx charges when the negotiation would be about whether to pay the FedEx, UPS, USPS, courier price, etc..[/quote][/qb]

quote:
I did not see any mention of preparing human organs in the manner you describe. Does PP also offer such research prep services?

It does, in fact pay to read what was said instead of making things up based on what you'd like people to be reacting to:
quote:
"The way they budget (for the cost of producing a specimen) is by the amount of time they spend on one patient. … It depends, if (the procurement service is) expecting somebody to process, and package, identify tissue for you, it’s going to be at the higher end of the range. In all cases, it’s really going to be about staff time, because that’s the only cost to the affiliate. And then, if you want space."
See "process, package, identify" up there? That's exactly what I was talking about and presenting possible examples of ways of processing tissue samples..

quote:
You're kind of making things up to explain this.
You're making things up that I didn't say, or simply not actually reading the facts so that's all on you.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
"Fee". "Reimbursement". "Service charge". "Shipping and handling". "Storage fee".

For the nteenth time, the are not selling the organs, they are recouping their cost of providing them.

So you'd argue that someone is not selling drugs but merely getting reimbursement for shipping?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
"Fee". "Reimbursement". "Service charge". "Shipping and handling". "Storage fee".

For the nteenth time, the are not selling the organs, they are recouping their cost of providing them.

So you'd argue that someone is not selling drugs but merely getting reimbursement for shipping?
If they're not charging for the drugs themselves, but only asking for reimbursement for shipping them at cost, sure.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
"Fee". "Reimbursement". "Service charge". "Shipping and handling". "Storage fee".

For the nteenth time, the are not selling the organs, they are recouping their cost of providing them.

So you'd argue that someone is not selling drugs but merely getting reimbursement for shipping?
No. People sell drugs. Why do you think that is the same? People sell bread and toys and all sorts of things.
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Rafi
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Yes, no. What is it? It's kinda the same if you bring a young woman to another country. You're not charging people to have sex with her, you're asking for reimbursement of shipping expenses. All legal right?
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TomDavidson
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Rafi, please stop pretending to be stupid. It's going to stick that way someday.
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kmbboots
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Rafi, I am not sure what your confusion is here. Do you think that because some things are for sale that means that everything is for sale?
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LetterRip
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In my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center.

The unreasonable S&H is a fairly common tactic telemarketing and ebay.

The opinion of experts is that it was reasonable S&H.

quote:
“There’s no way there’s a profit at that price,” said Sherilyn J. Sawyer, the director of Harvard University and Brigham and Women’s Hospital’s “biorepository.”
quote:
In reality, $30-100 probably constitutes a loss for [Planned Parenthood]. The costs associated with collection, processing, storage, and inventory and records management for specimens are very high. Most hospitals will provide tissue blocks from surgical procedures (ones no longer needed for clinical purposes, and without identity) for research, and cost recover for their time and effort in the range of $100-500 per case/block. In the realm of tissues for research $30-100 is completely reasonable and normal fee.
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/


http://m.snopes.com/pp-baby-parts-sale/

So PP charges well under the going rate for recovering costs related to S&H and related expenses compared to what hospitals charge, and probably is providing the service at less than cost.

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Pete at Home
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"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

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Pete at Home
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Another issue is whether the patient's safety and care are compromised by the remover's conflict of interest in removing "desirable" organs in a desirable state.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
Yes, no. What is it? It's kinda the same if you bring a young woman to another country. You're not charging people to have sex with her, you're asking for reimbursement of shipping expenses. All legal right?

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Rafi, please stop pretending to be stupid. It's going to stick that way someday.

If by sticking you mean that someone is going to pretend that he's playing stupid in one of the rare moments that he's making a valid point, one might say that's exactly what just happened.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Another issue is whether the patient's safety and care are compromised by the remover's conflict of interest in removing "desirable" organs in a desirable state.

I could see that as an issue if there were a larger incentive than donation. As they are not making a profit, I am less concerned.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

Now that just makes no sense at all. Informed consent is obviously not possible with fetuses - but then it wouldn't be possible with organ donation from children either. What that has to do with raping living people is beyond me.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

Who is dismissing informed consent? The women daunting the fetal matter are very explicitly consulted and consent to it being done. PP may provide the medical experts that can safely remove it and prepare it for transport and use, but it's very clear that it's only done with active consent from the donors.
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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Another issue is whether the patient's safety and care are compromised by the remover's conflict of interest in removing "desirable" organs in a desirable state.

I could see that as an issue if there were a larger incentive than donation. As they are not making a profit, I am less concerned.
They are not making a profit? Were they not making a profit at $75 a piece or were they not making a profit at $100 a piece? That's the price points negotiated.

Besides, let's see how many parts they sell and what they sell them for compared to the cost of acquisition. You assert they aren't making a profit but you have no idea if that's true. None. All we know for sure is they negotiate prices when selling parts.

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

Who is dismissing informed consent? The women daunting the fetal matter are very explicitly consulted and consent to it being done. PP may provide the medical experts that can safely remove it and prepare it for transport and use, but it's very clear that it's only done with active consent from the donors.
I am unconvinced that women are told that hearts, livers and entire heads will be negotiated for the highest price and sold. Perhaps thinking so makes you feel less "icky" but when we have them negotiating prices like that, then it looks like exactly what it is - criminal.
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Rafi
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Looks like somebody went full Snowden:
quote:
The women's health and abortion provider said Monday it has reported the crime to the Department of Justice and the FBI.
"Extremists who oppose Planned Parenthood's mission and services have launched an attack on our information systems, and have called on the world's most sophisticated hackers to assist them in breaching our systems and threatening the privacy and safety of our staff members," said Planned Parenthood Executive Vice President Dawn Laguens Monday afternoon.

They got emails apparently. This could be interesting. Love that they label them "extremists".
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TomDavidson
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Rafi, when you say that it is criminal to negotiate "prices" for tissue samples and organs, what crime are you alleging?
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

I'm not sure whose consent you are talking about. If it's the woman who is having an abortion, I don't think that's an issue; PP definitely gets their consent for donating the fetal tissue.

But pertinent to what? is the point I am posting to make. These hypothetical ethical concerns you raise might be pertinent to someone for some reason, but they aren't pertinent to the point we've been discussing, which is whether PP is illegally selling fetal tissue for a profit.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Another issue is whether the patient's safety and care are compromised by the remover's conflict of interest in removing "desirable" organs in a desirable state.

I could see that as an issue if there were a larger incentive than donation. As they are not making a profit, I am less concerned.
They are not making a profit? Were they not making a profit at $75 a piece or were they not making a profit at $100 a piece? That's the price points negotiated.

Besides, let's see how many parts they sell and what they sell them for compared to the cost of acquisition. You assert they aren't making a profit but you have no idea if that's true. None. All we know for sure is they negotiate prices when selling parts.

"All we know for sure is they negotiate prices when selling parts". Heh.

Yep, just keep saying that with your fingers in your ears, and that's all you'll "know".

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Another issue is whether the patient's safety and care are compromised by the remover's conflict of interest in removing "desirable" organs in a desirable state.

I could see that as an issue if there were a larger incentive than donation. As they are not making a profit, I am less concerned.
They are not making a profit? Were they not making a profit at $75 a piece or were they not making a profit at $100 a piece? That's the price points negotiated.

Besides, let's see how many parts they sell and what they sell them for compared to the cost of acquisition. You assert they aren't making a profit but you have no idea if that's true. None. All we know for sure is they negotiate prices when selling parts.

I do have an idea. The people in LetterRip's post above have a very good idea and they shared it.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
They are not making a profit? Were they not making a profit at $75 a piece or were they not making a profit at $100 a piece? That's the price points negotiated.


Neither, because the price difference results from more expensive or time intensive processing and shipping methods being applied, as has already been clearly stated. The negotiation is for what processing and shipping will be used, the price follows naturally from that; a $10 UPS box will cost $10,, while a $50 courier will cost $50. Two hours of staff time will cost twice as much as one hour of staff time. A process that uses $10 worth of lab materials is going to add $10 to the cost, whereas a process that uses $20 will add $20. PP can't magically know what each recipient will want, so they need to discuss (IE: negotiate) the services required, and thus the resultant price.

About the only thing that we get out of it, per the post above, is that PP employees are either underpaid significantly as compared to people that work at larger medical facilities, or that it significantly subsidizes the costs by picking up a large part of the tab so that they're effectively charging well below cost for the sake of facilitating donations.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
They got emails apparently. This could be interesting. Love that they label them "extremists".

Conducting an extended campaign to deny women access to basic health services is well within bounds of looking like, quacking like, and acting like a duck.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
You assert they aren't making a profit but you have no idea if that's true. None. All we know for sure is they negotiate prices when selling parts.
Well, how about the opinion of someone who would know?

quote:
We also asked experts in the use of human tissue for research about the potential for profit. Sherilyn J. Sawyer, the director of Harvard University and Brigham and Women’s Hospital’s “biorepository,” told us that “there’s no way there’s a profit at that price.” She continued in an email:

Sawyer, July 20: In reality, $30-100 probably constitutes a loss for [Planned Parenthood]. The costs associated with collection, processing, storage, and inventory and records management for specimens are very high. Most hospitals will provide tissue blocks from surgical procedures (ones no longer needed for clinical purposes, and without identity) for research, and cost recover for their time and effort in the range of $100-500 per case/block. In the realm of tissues for research $30-100 is completely reasonable and normal fee.

So we have someone familiar with prices in the field who states that PP isn't making a profit off these tissues. Do you have anyone as knowledgeable that says they are? Or will you admit that all indications are that they are not making money off these sales?
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Rafi
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Sure, let's go with the experience of someone who would know.
quote:
The Center for Medical Progress has released a third Planned Parenthood video, promising to be the first of a series. This one focuses on a phlebotomist who was hired by StemExpress as a "procurement technician." She says she found out after she was hired that rather than drawing blood (which is what a phlebotomist does), she was dissecting aborted babies so their parts could be sold off.

Some quotes:
"They do get some kind of benefit."
"They wanted someone who can get the numbers up."
"For whatever we could procure, they would get a certain percentage. The main nurse was always trying to make sure we got our specimens. No one else really cared, but the main nurse did because she knew that Planned Parenthood was getting compensated."

"We were asked to procure certain tissues like brain, livers, thymus, pancreas, heart, lungs, and pretty much anything on the fetus. It's basically a huge trafficking of fetal tissues."

The argument that they were selling it but doing so poorly at it that they posed a loss ... you know that's still criminal.

[ July 28, 2015, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Rafi ]

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Rafi
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

Neither, because the price difference results from more expensive or time intensive processing and shipping methods being applied, as has already been clearly stated. .

No matter how many times you make this claim, that's not going to make it true. You need something that proves it.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

Now that just makes no sense at all. Informed consent is obviously not possible with fetuses - but then it wouldn't be possible with organ donation from children either. What that has to do with raping living people is beyond me.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?

I refer to the informed consent of the aborting mother. Is she infomed that the method of abortion will be adjusted for readons that have nothing to do with her health and safety? That her safety may be compromised in an effort to obtain viable organs?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
you know that's still criminal
You keep using the word "criminal." What, specifically, do you think is criminal in this scenario?

I ask because as far as I can tell, nothing Planned Parenthood is doing here is illegal.

quote:
Is she informed that the method of abortion will be adjusted for reasons that have nothing to do with her health and safety? That her safety may be compromised in an effort to obtain viable organs?
I am genuinely curious whether this has ever actually happened. Given the extremely low margin on the tissue, increasing the risk to the mother -- and thus the potential costs, from legal fees to emergency medical procedures -- would be remarkably short-sighted. Since we're not talking about a significant amount of money winding up with any of the individuals who'd make that decision, I can't imagine what incentive they might have.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"n my view, it depends on whether the S&H were reasonable and predominantly to cover the cost of the S&H or if it was unreasonable and predominantly to make it a profit center."

I agree those are pertinent issues but hardly the only pertinent issues, LR. If we can so glibly dismiss INFORMED CONSENT, then might not mental hospitals pimp out their vegetables a la Kill Bill, to defray costs of care?

Now that just makes no sense at all. Informed consent is obviously not possible with fetuses - but then it wouldn't be possible with organ donation from children either. What that has to do with raping living people is beyond me.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?

I refer to the informed consent of the aborting mother. Is she infomed that the method of abortion will be adjusted for readons that have nothing to do with her health and safety? That her safety may be compromised in an effort to obtain viable organs?

Nope. I assumed that was the consent we were talking about because 1) I believe the fetus is more than just tissue so I do take its "rights" into consideration (I just consider the woman's rights to be the priority.) It is, after all, the one whose organs are being donated. and 2) It didn't occur to me that the woman having the abortion wouldn't be informed.

[ July 29, 2015, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Rafi:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

Neither, because the price difference results from more expensive or time intensive processing and shipping methods being applied, as has already been clearly stated. .

No matter how many times you make this claim, that's not going to make it true. You need something that proves it.
That proof has already been provided. You're presenting the exceptional claim here that they're somehow deviating from standard practice of such matters.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
That her safety may be compromised in an effort to obtain viable organs?
What makes you think that the woman's health and safety will be compromised? Everything I've read has stated that only methods that do not jepordize her health and safety would be used.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I refer to the informed consent of the aborting mother. Is she infomed that the method of abortion will be adjusted for readons that have nothing to do with her health and safety? That her safety may be compromised in an effort to obtain viable organs?
Yes. That was already very explicitly stated in the explanation of the actual process.
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Pyrtolin
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For Pete's peace of mind:
quote:
At several of our health centers, we help patients who want to donate tissue for scientific research, and we do this just like every other high-quality health care provider does — with full, appropriate consent from patients and under the highest ethical and legal standards.

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