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Author Topic: What are the Americans doing in Libya?
TomDavidson
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I sincerely hope that this will finally conclusively demonstrate to the Nobel committee that Peace Prizes cannot be handed out pre-emptively to encourage people to work for peace.
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ken_in_sc
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So far, it looks like Britain and France said, "Let's you and him fight." One British sub and a few French jets showed up?
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
There was the quip that Obama has now ordered more cruise missiles to be launched than all of the other Nobel Peace Prize winners put together

At this point, Obama has fired more Cruise Missiles than Ronald Reagan ever did and at the current rate will exceed the number used in the Gulf War by next week.

For some reason this was originally sold as a No-Fly zone and has been escalated to a massive aerial attack.


But of course air power can't win wars. So without any actual ground troops this seems a little pointless. It's pretty clear that the 'rebel troops' that have been shown on TV might be able to loot the DVD rack at a Walmart after a hurricane, but aren't going to actually win any serious battles against an actual enemy.

This picture is pretty indicative:
Photo Op

Notice that the two 'rebels' don't actually have guns. Between two of them, they have a very late model RPG with a cheap optical sight and two rounds. A large group of such (assuming they can round up some actual rifles) might be able to hold an urban area against third world troops, but they aren't going to win a battle in open terrain.

So what is happening here. Clearly we aren't just enforcing a No-Fly zone. There wasn't any need to bomb targets all over Tripoli (other than the airfield) to achieve that purpose. But the current batch of rebels aren't going to fight and win a ground war on their own down a 600 mile desert highway. Surely someone at the Pentagon has mentioned that rather obvious fact to President Obama.

So is their an unannounced plan to land significant amounts of Spec Operation troops to actually win the 'war'? Has the US deployed 'contractors' into Libya? Are the French planning on deploying the Legion?

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Michael Moore even wants to see him stripped now of his Nobel Peace Prize.
Easy come easy go.
Cherry do you have link on this? I believe you but I'd like to see it.
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G2
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Maybe we should have a thread, "Who's in charge in Lybia?"
quote:
President Barack Obama, seeking to avoid getting bogged down in a war in another Muslim country, said on Monday Washington would cede control of operations against Muammar Gaddafi's forces within days, handing the reins over to NATO.

But Germany and European allies remain unwilling to have NATO take on a military operation that theoretically has nothing to do with the defence of Europe.

France, which launched the initial air strikes on Libya on Saturday, has argued against giving the U.S.-led NATO political control over an operation in an Arab country, while Turkey has called for limits to any alliance involvement.

This is the "Keystone Cops" approach to starting and running a war. We don't know what we're going to do, regimes change, just stop flights, aid civilians or today's "transform their country, by installing a democratic system that respects the people’s will.”

All we know is nobody wants to be in charge of it. I wonder if the Benny Hill theme song plays in the background of all the conference calls?

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TheDeamon
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
I wonder if the Benny Hill theme song plays in the background of all the conference calls?

Probably only seeing that song getting played when our ships are conducting flight operations.
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AI Wessex
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Someone today told me a joke about someone who bought a French rifle that was described as in nearly new condition because it had never been fired but had been dropped twice.**

** The poster of the above claims no responsibility for the opinions expressed therein and neither admits nor denies having reacted to it in any demonstrable way.

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cherrypoptart
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> Cherry do you have link on this? I believe you but I'd like to see it.

First, let's feel the love.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikes-letter/get-obamas-back-second-thoughts-michael-moore

"Thank you, Barack Obama, for giving us the opportunity to redeem ourselves. Now for the tasks ahead. We need you to do all that you promised to do. We need it. The world needs it.

My prediction for the future? You become the first *two-time* winner of the Nobel Peace Prize! Yeah!"

-----------------------------------------------

Fast forward to the present:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2011/03/documentary-maker-michael-moore-critical-about-action-on-libya/1

"We have neither the troops, stomach, or $$ to fight a ground war for months/years to defeat (Moammar Gadhafi)."

"May I suggest a 50-mile evacuation zone around Obama's Nobel Peace Prize?"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/20/michael_moore_to_obama_return_your_nobel_peace_prize.html

"Michael Moore tweets that President Obama should return his Nobel Peace Prize after he approved military strikes on Libya."

---------------------------------------------

I'm sure your sources are as good as mine. Are they paraphrasing or quoting Moore and could his tweets be faked? I wish I had a better source for you but I don't see the regular media covering it yet. Now that he's bitten his master, perhaps the mainstream media will give him all the press coverage they've given Cindy Sheehan lately.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2009/08/what-happened-antiwar-movement-cindy-sheehan-hits-hypocrisy-left-d


By: Byron York 08/18/09 12:00 AM

"What happened to the antiwar movement? Cindy Sheehan hits 'hypocrisy' of Left, Democratic allies."

"After my column, "For the left, war without Bush is not war at all," appeared Tuesday, I got a note from Cindy Sheehan, the anti-war activist who was the subject of so much press coverage when she led a protest against the Iraq war outside then-President George W. Bush's ranch in Texas."


"After receiving the email, I asked Sheehan to give me a call, so I could verify that the note in fact came from her. She did, and we discussed her plans to protest next week in Martha's Vineyard, where President Obama will be vacationing. "I think people are starting to wake up to the fact that even if they supported Obama, he doesn't represent much change," Sheehan said. "There are people still out here who oppose the war and Obama's policies, but it seems like the big organizations with the big lists aren't here."

I asked Sheehan about the fact that the press seems to have lost interest in her and her cause. "It's strange to me that you mention it," she said. "I haven't stopped working. I've been protesting every time I can, and it's not covered. But the one time I did get a lot of coverage was when I protested in front of George Bush's house in Dallas in June. I don't know what to make of it. Is the press having a honeymoon with Obama? I know the Left is."

--------------------------------------------

At least many on the right have finally met a war they don't approve of with this Libya attack. Well, if you don't count how we killed the wrong people in Kosovo and failed miserably in Somalia.

Edited to add: This joke is so old but maybe that makes it a classic...

They say the British battle uniforms were red so as to hide the inevitable blood, and the same line of thought also explains why the French battle uniforms were brown.

[ March 22, 2011, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: cherrypoptart ]

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Someone today told me a joke about someone who bought a French rifle that was described as in nearly new condition because it had never been fired but had been dropped twice.**

** The poster of the above claims no responsibility for the opinions expressed therein and neither admits nor denies having reacted to it in any demonstrable way.

I think the joke is actually:

A French rifle is for sale on e-bay. It's never been fired but I heard it's been dropped once. [Big Grin]

Or some variation there of. I heard if for the first time well before the advent of E-bay.


quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
At least many on the right have finally met a war they don't approve of with this Libya attack. Well, if you don't count how we killed the wrong people in Kosovo and failed miserably in Somalia.

I don't think the right in general objects to attacking Ghaddafi per se, but many object to the abruptness of this war and the apparent lack of any kind of definitive mission or even a noticeable plan.

[ March 22, 2011, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: JWatts ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
"After receiving the email, I asked Sheehan to give me a call, so I could verify that the note in fact came from her. She did, and we discussed her plans to protest next week in Martha's Vineyard, where President Obama will be vacationing. "I think people are starting to wake up to the fact that even if they supported Obama, he doesn't represent much change," Sheehan said. "There are people still out here who oppose the war and Obama's policies, but it seems like the big organizations with the big lists aren't here."

I asked Sheehan about the fact that the press seems to have lost interest in her and her cause. "It's strange to me that you mention it," she said. "I haven't stopped working. I've been protesting every time I can, and it's not covered. But the one time I did get a lot of coverage was when I protested in front of George Bush's house in Dallas in June. I don't know what to make of it. Is the press having a honeymoon with Obama? I know the Left is."

It's strange to me that you mention it...I don't know what to make of it, heh. Cindy Sheehan, gettin a big ol' hot reality injection. Mmmm, I love the taste of reality. Tastes like ... victory.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
[QB] I think the joke is actually:

A French rifle is for sale on e-bay. It's never been fired but I heard it's been dropped once. [Big Grin]

Or some variation there of. I heard if for the first time well before the advent of E-bay.

There's always the French battle flag
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cherrypoptart
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It's going to be interesting if they try the same silent treatment with Michael Moore. I'm actually interested to see how that plays out. They loved putting the microphone in front of his face all the time before, just like with Sheehan, but what about now that he's gone rogue?

Can they succeed in quieting him like they have in putting the media muzzle on her?

He's got a much louder voice and substantially more resources though so this could become very entertaining.

--------------------------------------------

By the way, maybe the French attacked Libya because they are sick of hearing all your jokes about their cowardice. Of course, it's just like a coward to kick the nearest dog when they are tired of being picked on themselves.

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JWatts
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This bit is hilarious:

quote:

France has proposed that a new political steering committee outside Nato be responsible for overseeing military operations over Libya.

French Foreign Minister Alain Jupe said the new body would bring together foreign ministers of participating states - as well as the Arab League.

It is expected to meet in the coming days, either in Brussels, London or Paris.

Mr Jupe said "not all members of the military coalition are members of Nato and this is therefore not a Nato operation."

A political steering committee to run a war? Seriously? Really? [Roll Eyes] I mean granted this is Libya, but still.

And this:

quote:
President Barack Obama, seeking to avoid getting bogged down in a war in another Muslim country, said on Monday Washington would cede control of operations against Muammar Gaddafi's forces within days, handing the reins over to NATO.

But Germany and European allies remain unwilling to have NATO take on a military operation that theoretically has nothing to do with the defence of Europe.

France, which launched the initial air strikes on Libya on Saturday, has argued against giving the U.S.-led NATO political control over an operation in an Arab country, while Turkey has called for limits to any alliance involvement.

Some allies are even questioning whether a no-fly zone is still necessary, given the damage already done by air strikes to Gaddafi's military capabilities.

Speaking about the hastily arranged meeting of NATO allies, one diplomat said: 'Yesterday's meeting became a little bit emotional,' before adding that France had argued that the coalition led by Britain, the United States and France should retain political control of the mission, with NATO providing operational support, including command-and-control capabilities.

'Others are saying NATO should have command or no role at all and that it doesn't make sense for NATO to play a subsidiary role,' the diplomat added.

Link

Apparently Libya has better leadership in this war.

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TommySama
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Damn it. I get the flu for one week, and when I get out of bed we've started another war?
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TomDavidson
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I'm pretty sure the objection that other countries have to making this a NATO operation is that they really, really don't want to have to help pay for it.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'm pretty sure the objection that other countries have to making this a NATO operation is that they really, really don't want to have to help pay for it.

No, it's a deeper than just the cost. There are clearly some moral objections from the Germans.

quote:

Deep divisions between allied forces currently bombing Libya worsened today as the German military announced it was pulling forces out of NATO over continued disagreement on who will lead the campaign.

A German military spokesman said it was recalling two frigates and AWACS surveillance plane crews from the Mediterranean, after fears they would be drawn into the conflict if NATO takes over control from the U.S.

The infighting comes as a heated meeting of NATO ambassadors yesterday failed to resolve whether the 28-nation alliance should run the operation to enforce a U.N.-mandated no-fly zone, diplomats said.

Yesterday a war of words erupted between the U.S. and Britain after the U.K. government claimed Muammar Gaddafi is a legitimate target for assassination.

U.K. government officials said killing the Libyan leader would be legal if it prevented civilian deaths as laid out in a U.N. resolution.

But U.S. defence secretary Robert Gates hit back at the suggestion, saying it would be 'unwise' to target the Libyan leader adding cryptically that the bombing campaign should stick to the 'U.N. mandate'.


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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Damn it. I get the flu for one week, and when I get out of bed we've started another war?

Nope, apparently we are not at War. Obama would never start a War. What were you thinking? He's off touring South America and whatever is happening over in the Mediterranean is clearly not a War.

quote:
White House officials told Democratic and Republican congressional aides Tuesday that the U.S. is not at war with Libya and, without laying out a timeline, that the president hopes to hand over control of coalition military operations in the next few days.

Aides in attendance said the administration didn’t shed much new light on the situation.

“You learn more by having read the paper,” one said.

The unclassified briefing, delivered to House and Senate aides in a Capitol Visitor Center auditorium, comes amid criticism that the administration did not consult enough with Congress before launching missile strikes on Libyan air defenses over the weekend.

Link
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cherrypoptart
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It's actually pretty scary when "they" apparently don't even understand how firing all of these missiles into a country and blowing up radar units, tanks, buildings, airports, airplanes, troop carriers, and plenty of people as well isn't an act of war.

What is it then? An act of peace? Okay asserting that this is an act of peace is just being ridiculous and I admit it. But maybe it could be an act of neutrality...

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TheDeamon
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It is a "international police action."

[ March 22, 2011, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: TheDeamon ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
It's going to be interesting if they try the same silent treatment with Michael Moore. I'm actually interested to see how that plays out. They loved putting the microphone in front of his face all the time before, just like with Sheehan, but what about now that he's gone rogue?

Can they succeed in quieting him like they have in putting the media muzzle on her?

He's got a much louder voice and substantially more resources though so this could become very entertaining.

--------------------------------------------

By the way, maybe the French attacked Libya because they are sick of hearing all your jokes about their cowardice. Of course, it's just like a coward to kick the nearest dog when they are tired of being picked on themselves.

The French held more of Europe under their power than any other nation in history including the Nazis and the Romans. They also concieved the battle plan at Yorktown and went bankrupt funding our Revolution (which led to THEIR revolution, the rise of Napolean, chains of events are fun.)

America's greatest living military writer on the the French

The War Nerd on The French

[ March 22, 2011, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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I wonder how many of you learned your concept of how the word works from La Conquête du Monde or, as we know it now, RISK. [Razz]

[ March 23, 2011, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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TheDeamon
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Risk was fun, Civilization was even better. Although that militiaman defeating my tank, or sinking my battleships was highly annoying. Evidently he figured figured out how to wage asymmetric warfare before it became an overly common term for talking heads.

[ March 23, 2011, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: TheDeamon ]

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I wonder how many of you learned your concept of how the word works from La Conquête du Monde or, as we know it now, RISK. [Razz]

Risk is for children. Axis and Allies is for teenagers. And Empire In Arms is for adults.

And yes for the record Nappy was a bad ass. But it's still amusing to poke fun of the French.

I mean who thinks it's a good idea to spend a decade building the most impressive fortification in history and then stop 30 miles short of the coast. [Eek!] Because it would never occur to Germans to go around or anything. [DOH]

Plus De Gaulle was a complete jack ass.

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TommySama
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Asymmetrical warfare was around long before Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, and George H. W. Bush, those brilliant theoreticians who, after decades of dedicated study and careful reconstruction of the principles and practices of human conflict, joined forces in order to accomplish their most daunting task yet: the creation of a game, which would one day become the blueprint followed by every brilliant world leader, from Alexander to Napolean to Washington, in his application of warfare (as it came to be known) to the rest of the planet, Risk.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Plus De Gaulle was a complete jack ass
So was Nappolean.

Making fun of the French for being arrogant is jackasses is fair, but al the "surrender monke jokes" are really unfair to a people that had a global empire for centuries. Then again the Itallians have the same problem..

Maybe we have something to look forward to?

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AI Wessex
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No, they're not cowards, but this is their initiative. They should be leading instead of us.
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G2
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From the Who's Idea Was This Anyway Department comes the headline: Who's in charge? Germans pull forces out of NATO as Libyan coalition falls apart
quote:
Deep divisions between allied forces currently bombing Libya worsened today as the German military announced it was pulling forces out of NATO over continued disagreement on who will lead the campaign.

A German military spokesman said it was recalling two frigates and AWACS surveillance plane crews from the Mediterranean, after fears they would be drawn into the conflict if NATO takes over control from the U.S.

The infighting comes as a heated meeting of NATO ambassadors yesterday failed to resolve whether the 28-nation alliance should run the operation to enforce a U.N.-mandated no-fly zone, diplomats said.

Maybe Barry farmed this out to Biden? This sounds exactly like how Biden would run a war and Barry has pretty much farmed out his entire presidency to others so it all makes sense.
quote:
U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters in Moscow, “This command-and-control business is complicated, and we haven’t done something like this kind of on-the-fly before.
War on-the-fly. Since many of you have never seen it, this *is* what total incompetence from the Commander in Chief looks like. Barry and his gang had 3 weeks to develop the plan and get it all together before committing but instead they spent the time on NCAA picks, a little golfing and a nice little spring break jaunt to Brazil to work on his samba dancing. I've been calling the Obama administration amateurish since day one but this level of incompetence, war on-the-fly , surprises even me.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
but this level of incompetence, war on-the-fly , surprises even me.

Yeah, me too. This is ridiculous. But hey, he cut his serious business trip short half a day by skipping the jaunt to the Mayan ruins. Obama is clearly willing to make any sacrifice for the good of the country. (I'm pretty sure he hasn't been golfing since the weekend [Wink] )
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Greg Davidson
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Obama's course of action here is not a good one. Which alternate was better? Gaddafi demonstrating that tanks, aircraft, and foreign mercenaries can crush a rebellion (while France and England attempt to intervene without U.S. help)? Attacking Libya without UN or Arab League sanction? In a realpolitick sense, there is a benefit to the United States if the Eastern Libyans who were part of the anti-American jihadists in Iraq are called back to Libya to fight against Gaddafi, but the same scenario risks very high civilian casualties, refugees who will become a problematical burden to the nascent democracies we hope will emerge in Tunisia and Egypt, etc.

The criticism of Obama's actions discussed above reflect a distinct lack of insight or depth. Here is an instance where I believe that Obama's selected approach could be criticized, I wish that some of the anti-Obama members of our community here could make a legitimate critical argument (that is, identify an alternative set of choices that could have been made that would better address the range of risks and opportunities in this situation than Obama's choices).

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AI Wessex
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The article cited by G2 is slightly misleading, because on first reading it implies that Germany's action changes the balance of military strength. Germany is clearly opposed to the no-fly zone and hadn't committed those few ships or personnel to the effort. This is a technical change of course to prevent them being asked to do it down the road that will save the sort of embarrassment G2 is trying to stir up.

"I wish that some of the anti-Obama members of our community here could make a legitimate critical argument..."

Greg, JWatts I might expect it from, but it would break tradition for G2 to offer a constructive argument.

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Dave at Work
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I first heard that joke in the form "Want a new ARVN rifle? Never been fired and only dropped once." I think it was in "Full Metal Jacket".

quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Someone today told me a joke about someone who bought a French rifle that was described as in nearly new condition because it had never been fired but had been dropped twice.**

** The poster of the above claims no responsibility for the opinions expressed therein and neither admits nor denies having reacted to it in any demonstrable way.


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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
The criticism of Obama's actions discussed above reflect a distinct lack of insight or depth. Here is an instance where I believe that Obama's selected approach could be criticized, I wish that some of the anti-Obama members of our community here could make a legitimate critical argument (that is, identify an alternative set of choices that could have been made that would better address the range of risks and opportunities in this situation than Obama's choices).

This is really a desperate new meme. "Why G2, being critical of Barry/Democrats just ain't real unless 1)you can offer up a Republican that's done the same or 2)you can offer something up we can use as a strawman to deflect the criticism."

You guys do well enough with your own logical fallacies, you don't need me to spoon feed them to you. Look at AI, following me from thread to thread to do nothing more than his favorite, the ad hominem logical fallacy (although to be fair, I think Tom put him up to it). Follow his example.

Here's one thing Barry could do, figure out what the final goal of all this is and stick with that, stop changing it on a nearly daily basis.

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AI Wessex
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G2, I don't follow you, but you do show up making a mess in threads on topics that are of interest to me. Would you prefer that I let your little half-truths and deceptions hopefully go unnoticed? You do realize that his name is not Barry, don't you? Do you still go by "the G2"?

Greg's question was very pertinent and relevant. So far I think you have only attacked Obama on this topic. It's a complex one, with some people thinking he should have done more and done it earlier, and others thinking he did too much too soon. We all wish there were a single simple solution that could have been done from the start, but the world is a complicated place. What do you think he *should* have done?

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
The criticism of Obama's actions discussed above reflect a distinct lack of insight or depth. Here is an instance where I believe that Obama's selected approach could be criticized, I wish that some of the anti-Obama members of our community here could make a legitimate critical argument.

There is nothing stopping you from criticizing Obama, if you don't like the points above.

To summarize:
- Obama doesn't seem to be giving a lot of attention to this war.
- The administration denies it even is a war.
- He actions appear hypocritical when compared with his prior statements about Bush.
- The administration acts like it doesn't even want to be involved.
- They seem to be fumbling around looking for somebody else to take over.
- Obama failed to appropriately make a case to the American people and Congress as to why we need to be involved.
- There has been no reasonable point made on why the rebellion in Libya is special and worthy of American attention (that means bombs), but the ones in Bahrain, Iran, Tunisia, the Ivory Coast, etc are not.

I'm sure you can think of a few more reasons why this seems to be a debacle in American leadership. I can't think of a modern American president that bungled this badly. I think Carter handled the hostage crisis in a more professional manner.

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TCB
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Greg said:
quote:
The criticism of Obama's actions discussed above reflect a distinct lack of insight or depth. Here is an instance where I believe that Obama's selected approach could be criticized, I wish that some of the anti-Obama members of our community here could make a legitimate critical argument (that is, identify an alternative set of choices that could have been made that would better address the range of risks and opportunities in this situation than Obama's choices).
I think the decision to invade was such a bad, poorly thought out idea that no level of excellent execution could have saved it. It would have been a bad idea to intervene earlier, too (back when the rebels were winning they probably would have resented American intervention as unnecessary). Obama has been very opaque (almost criminally so) about the impetus for this war. If he has a good reason I haven't considered I wish he'd lay it out instead of making us guess.

To me the superior alternative would have been to stay out of it and let Qaddafi re-take Benghazi. It would have been ugly, but the situation was bound to get ugly the minute civil war began. The situation will almost certainly get very ugly in the near future despite American intervention.

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AI Wessex
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"A French rifle is for sale on e-bay. It's never been fired but I heard it's been dropped once. [Big Grin]"

Just doing a little forensics on the joke, dropping it once is a unique event, but dropping it twice is a pattern [Smile] .

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AI Wessex
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"To me the superior alternative would have been to stay out of it and let Qaddafi re-take Benghazi. It would have been ugly, but the situation was bound to get ugly the minute civil war began. The situation will almost certainly get very ugly in the near future despite American intervention. "

This was my initial inclination, and still would be if we were just talking about Libya. I keep waiting to hear signals that this is sending a message to other countries to resolve internal conflicts peacefully, but haven't heard that yet. OTOH, things have quieted (if not stabilized) a little in the news about Syria, Bahrain and Yemen over the past couple of days. Still hard to tell what will happen. But I still think the real goal is to keep Saudi Arabia out of direct armed conflict or internal rebellion. I can't understand why they went into Bahrain, especially with so few troops. I can only think that there is posturing on many fronts by many sides.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
No, they're not cowards, but this is their initiative. They should be leading instead of us.

And if the imperial army of the western world was theirs to command at the moment they could.

Now about that rifle joke if you didn't read the bloody article here's a highlight.

quote:
Well, I'm going to tell you guys something you probably don't want to hear: these sites are total bull****, the notion that the French are cowards is total bull****, and anybody who knows anything about European military history knows damn well that over the past thousand years, the French have the most glorious military history in Europe, maybe the world.

Before you send me more of those death threats, let me finish. I hate Chirac too, and his disco foreign minister with the blow-dry 'do and the snotty smile. But there are two things I hate more than I hate the French: ignorant fake war buffs, and people who are ungrateful. And when an American mouths off about French military history, he's not just being ignorant, he's being ungrateful. I was raised to think ungrateful people were trash.

When I say ungrateful, I'm talking about the American Revolution. If you're a true American patriot, then this is the war that matters. Hell, most of you probably couldn't name three major battles from it, but try going back to when you read Johnny Tremaine in fourth grade and you might recall a little place called Yorktown, Virginia, where we bottled up Cornwallis's army, forced the Brits' surrender and pretty much won the war.

Well, news flash: "we" didn't win that battle, any more than the Northern Alliance conquered the Taliban. The French army and navy won Yorktown for us. Americans didn't have the materiel or the training to mount a combined operation like that, with naval blockade and land siege. It was the French artillery forces and military engineers who ran the siege, and at sea it was a French admiral, de Grasse, who kicked the **** out of the British navy when they tried to break the siege.


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AI Wessex
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Blimey, I did read the bloody article when you posted it. He makes some excellent points, but he's so angry that he lost his sense of humor. Remind me to tell you my "Admiral Nelson" French joke when you're in a better mood yourself [Smile] . It works better for the French.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
And when an American mouths off about French military history, he's not just being ignorant, he's being ungrateful. I was raised to think ungrateful people were trash.

[Big Grin] This guy needs to seek therapy. They are jokes.

Just like we make jokes about the British, Canadian, Germans and Poles, etc. And just like the British, Canadian, French, Germans and etc make jokes about Americans.

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