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Author Topic: Two years after, Richard Goldstone reconsiders his "Report" on Israeli war crimes...
Hannibal
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html?hpid=z3


Better late than never...
Obviously this publication will go much less noticed than the big noise made by the UN when the official goldstone report was released...

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KidTokyo
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What do you think is the important "take" from this article? Why are you posting it? It is hardly a reversal.
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Hannibal
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What I take the most is this :

"committee’s report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."

That means... Israel did not intentionaly target civilians, like that SOB claimed in the begining.

I have also quoted some other nice facts from his column :


"If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document."

"found that “Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.”"

"committee’s report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."

"hat the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets."

"srael’s lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants. The Israeli military’s numbers have turned out to be similar to those recently furnished by Hamas "

" our main recommendation was for each party to investigate, transparently and in good faith, the incidents referred to in our report. McGowan Davis has found that Israel has done this to a significant degree; Hamas has done nothing."

"Some have suggested that it was absurd to expect Hamas, an organization that has a policy to destroy the state of Israel, to investigate what we said were serious war crimes. It was my hope, even if unrealistic, that Hamas would do so, especially if Israel conducted its own investigations."

"At minimum I hoped that in the face of a clear finding that its members were committing serious war crimes, Hamas would curtail its attacks. Sadly, that has not been the case. Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms."

"In the end, asking Hamas to investigate may have been a mistaken enterprise. So, too, the Human Rights Council should condemn the inexcusable and cold-blooded recent slaughter of a young Israeli couple and three of their small children in their beds."

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starLisa
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The article is worthless. I have a pillow. When he finds every goddamned feather and puts it back in the pillow, then I'll think he's said something worthwhile.
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KidTokyo
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I'm not sure that this article matters much to me, any more than the original report did.

Too often, I get the idea you, and those who argue as you do, wish to reduce the whole debate to a question of national character. Or, even worse, that that it's all a matter of PR -- that people are against Israel because they have misapprehensions about how Israel conducts itself -- they don't know "the real Israel."

Israel is virtuous, you say, and its enemies are not.

Therefore...what?

I harbor no delusions that Hamas follows international law. Why would they? They have no incentive. Like most of the Palestinian territory, they have no power and presence at all except by what they can grab by whatever means. This is just a fact -- it has nothing to do with what you or I think about it. They have absolutely no reason to behave differently, as they are already experiencing life, death, and the nature on its starkest and most barbaric terms.

The fact that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy does not change the fact that its far more modern artillery is orders of magnitude more deadly than the medieval, black-market guns and homemade projectiles from the Palestinian side. Israel kills more civilians by accident than Hamas kills on purpose -- not exactly a balanced equation there, is it?

To someone whose entire family just got creamed, the fact that they weren't targeted is mere formalism, adding insult to injury.

I don't know what you think is supposed to happen here with this debate. Israel is a first-world, industrial democracy, and we expect that it will not kill civilians for the hell of it.

Israel seems to get upset that the world holds Israel to a higher standard than its enemies, yet Israel's most popular defense nowadays -- that is uses itself -- is that it behaves better than its enemies.

Palestinians will not become any less radical until they become less desperate. Period. The ball's in Israel's court as to what to do about it. Letting the other side's lawlessness justify Israel's violation of their territory is ultimately a position of great moral weakness.

[ April 03, 2011, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
I'm not sure that this article matters much to me, any more than the original report did.

Too often, I get the idea you, and those who argue as you do, wish to reduce the whole debate to a question of national character. Or, even worse, that that it's all a matter of PR -- that people are against Israel because they have misapprehensions about how Israel conducts itself -- they don't know "the real Israel."

Israel is virtuous, you say, and its enemies are not.

Therefore...what?

I harbor no delusions that Hamas follows international law. Why would they? They have no incentive. Like most of the Palestinian territory, they have no power and presence at all except by what they can grab by whatever means. This is just a fact -- it has nothing to do with what you or I think about it. They have absolutely no reason to behave differently, as they are already experiencing life, death, and the nature on its starkest and most barbaric terms.

The fact that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy does not change the fact that its far more modern artillery is orders of magnitude more deadly than the medieval, black-market guns and homemade projectiles from the Palestinian side. Israel kills more civilians by accident than Hamas kills on purpose -- not exactly a balanced equation there, is it?

To someone whose entire family just got creamed, the fact that they weren't targeted is mere formalism, adding insult to injury.

I don't know what you think is supposed to happen here with this debate. Israel is a first-world, industrial democracy, and we expect that it will not kill civilians for the hell of it.

Israel seems to get upset that the world holds Israel to a higher standard than its enemies, yet Israel's most popular defense nowadays -- that is uses itself -- is that it behaves better than its enemies.

Palestinians will not become any less radical until they become less desperate. Period. The ball's in Israel's court as to what to do about it. Letting the other side's lawlessness justify Israel's violation of their territory is ultimately a position of great moral weakness.

That's a lovely theory, but it doesn't fit the facts. The facts say that to the extent that they become less desperate, they get more violent.

And this "powerless" justification makes me throw up.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
The facts say that to the extent that they become less desperate, they get more violent.
Not at all a refutation of what I said. They are opportunistic.

Even at their most powerful, they are exponentially less powerful than Israel.

quote:
And this "powerless" justification makes me throw up.
That's nice. Any thoughts to add to the discussion?
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vulture
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:

And this "powerless" justification makes me throw up.

It's not a justification. It's an explanation. There's a difference.
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Hannibal
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@Kid

" that that it's all a matter of PR -- that people are against Israel because they have misapprehensions about how Israel conducts itself -- they don't know "the real Israel." "

Either you completley misunderstood, or you did not even try. I am not sure which is worst

The Goldstone report established that Israel systematically targeted and murdured civilians as a state policy.
To put it more bluntly, Goldstone accused and tried Israel for murder.

And now after the U.N adopted this, Mr Goldstone is taking his claims back, he now says that he came to the decision that Israel did not murder civilians.

This is not a P.R stunt, I dont know where you got this crap, seriously dude, We were accused of murduring other people. the UN adopted the report, defacto proclaiming that Israel is a state that murders civilians as a policy.

The UN must take this back, especially in light of the reversal of Mr Goldstone.

"Israel is virtuous, you say, and its enemies are not."

Crapitty crap, nobody said that, all we said is that Israel is entitled to defend itself, just like any other country on earth.


"I harbor no delusions that Hamas follows international law. Why would they? They have no incentive. Like most of the Palestinian territory, they have no power and presence at all except by what they can grab by whatever means. This is just a fact -- it has nothing to do with what you or I think about it. They have absolutely no reason to behave differently, as they are already experiencing life, death, and the nature on its starkest and most barbaric terms. "

Even more crap...

Hamas has many options, they can , for instance, act like the PLO, which are much more successful in their attempts to pressure Israel, and the PLO is committing any voilent act.

your claims are pure demagogary, Hamas are murderous zealots who wish nothing but slaughtering Jews and Israelis. Seriously, compare Hamas's behavior to the tactics of Abu Mazen and Salam Fyyad, who is more successful in pressuring Israel?

Imagine what would happen to Israel's peace negotiations policy if Hamas will adopt the line of the PLO ? it will destroy the last line of "defence" we have against striking a deal with the palestinians

They control Gaza for the past 6 years aside to launching rockets on Israel and brainwashing the populace they didnt do anything constructive.

"ar more modern artillery is orders of magnitude more deadly than the medieval, black-market guns and homemade projectiles from the Palestinian side."

Crap crap crap

Hamas has thousands of rockets that can target hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Hamas targets Israeli cities in order to kill and terrorize civilians.
Be'er Sheva is a city of 300K citizens and its constantly bombed by Hamas, Ashdod a city of 250K also constantly bombed

Both these cities are 30-40km away from Gaza, do you think we are going to sit idly while our cities are bombed, because we have a stronger army ?

That is such a joke, I want to see the day where the U.S.A sits idly after its cities are bombed because the U.S.A has a stronger army than its agressor.

" Israel kills more civilians by accident than Hamas kills on purpose -- not exactly a balanced equation there, is it?"

This is a serious crap and an outright lie


Dont you see whats going on here?
Who are the main persuiters against Israel and its allegedly crimes against humanity ?

All the humane and liberal muslim countries and their african block allies.

These countries want to take Israel's ability to defend itself, because these countries want to destory Israel.

Countries such as Lybia who sit in the UN comitee for human rights (funny ha?) call for a UN report on Israel's crimes against humanity. This is a campaign to take away Israel's power of self defence.

The final goal of these countries is that Isreal ceases to exist.


"Israel seems to get upset that the world holds Israel to a higher standard than its enemies"

That is where you are wrong...
Israel and Israelis get upset not because the world holds us to a higher standard than our enemies, but to itself. begin by judging us with the same standards you judge yourselves, it will be a great improvement.

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velcro
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KidTokyo wrote
quote:
The fact that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy does not change the fact that its far more modern artillery is orders of magnitude more deadly than the medieval, black-market guns and homemade projectiles from the Palestinian side. Israel kills more civilians by accident than Hamas kills on purpose -- not exactly a balanced equation there, is it?

To someone whose entire family just got creamed, the fact that they weren't targeted is mere formalism, adding insult to injury.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that someone is just as dead, whether it is intentional or not? If so, how do you deal with killing in self defense, or the distinction between manslaughter and murder? Are the 50,000 people killed each year in automobile accidents a greater moral outrage than the 3000 killed by terrorists 10 years ago?

Intentional murder is worse than negligent manslaughter, and certainly worse than killing in the process of defending yourself. Do you disagree?

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Intentional murder is worse than negligent manslaughter,
Sure, but how much worse?

If intentional murder is 10 times worse than negligent manslaughter, then someone who negligently manslaughters 11 people still ends up doing a worse act than a single intentional murder.

If a US president negligently presses the "launch all nukes" button, he'll have done worse than the worst serial killer in human history. Even if it was only done in negligence.

[ April 04, 2011, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Hannibal
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Aris, are you intentionally dumb? or does it come in waves?
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vulture
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quote:
Originally posted by velcro:
KidTokyo wrote
quote:
The fact that Israel does not target civilians as a matter of policy does not change the fact that its far more modern artillery is orders of magnitude more deadly than the medieval, black-market guns and homemade projectiles from the Palestinian side. Israel kills more civilians by accident than Hamas kills on purpose -- not exactly a balanced equation there, is it?

To someone whose entire family just got creamed, the fact that they weren't targeted is mere formalism, adding insult to injury.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that someone is just as dead, whether it is intentional or not? If so, how do you deal with killing in self defense, or the distinction between manslaughter and murder? Are the 50,000 people killed each year in automobile accidents a greater moral outrage than the 3000 killed by terrorists 10 years ago?

Intentional murder is worse than negligent manslaughter, and certainly worse than killing in the process of defending yourself. Do you disagree?

I thought KidTokyo's point was that while those arguments are fine and reasonable in theory, it all falls apart when you are the person looking at the rubble where you used to live and picking out body parts. You don't think "well, at least it was collateral damage rather than anyone deliberately targetting my family". You think "I want to kill the f***ers who did this".

Again, it isn't about whether something is justified morally or academically. It's about the practical consequences that follow on from those deaths; and that doesn't depend on intent so much as it does merely on numbers.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Aris, are you intentionally dumb? or does it come in waves?
That's one of those trick questions, isn't it?

[ April 04, 2011, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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jasonr
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quote:
Again, it isn't about whether something is justified morally or academically. It's about the practical consequences that follow on from those deaths; and that doesn't depend on intent so much as it does merely on numbers.
Quite true. And if the outrage against Israel and phony accusations of genocide were coming primarily from the next of kin of the deceased, I would be alot more sympathetic. I wonder how many people protesting last week in the latest anti-Israel march had to pick up the body parts of their loved ones from the rubble of a bombed out house?
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KidTokyo
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quote:
The Goldstone report established that Israel systematically targeted and murdured civilians as a state policy.
To put it more bluntly, Goldstone accused and tried Israel for murder.

And now after the U.N adopted this, Mr Goldstone is taking his claims back, he now says that he came to the decision that Israel did not murder civilians.

This is not a P.R stunt, I dont know where you got this crap, seriously dude, We were accused of murduring other people. the UN adopted the report, defacto proclaiming that Israel is a state that murders civilians as a policy.

The UN must take this back, especially in light of the reversal of Mr Goldstone.

If one believes, as I do, that Israel's policies unnecessarily perpetuate warfare when peace is well within its means, this becomes a distinction without a difference, which is why I have never fixated on this report.

quote:
Hamas has many options, they can , for instance, act like the PLO, which are much more successful in their attempts to pressure Israel, and the PLO is committing any voilent act.
The PLO becomes an attractive option for Israel because Hamas makes them look good. Good coop, bad cop still works, even if the cops aren't in cahoots.

But that's really beside the point. There are always going to be political "wings." I don't recall saying that Hamas had the wisest policy -- just that the existence of such a group is inevitable in the conditions with which Palestinians must contend. I'm just saying grass is green here, Hannibal. Not everyone deals with deprivation, humiliation, and death with the noble forbearance that you'd prefer.

quote:
your claims are pure demagogary, Hamas are murderous zealots who wish nothing but slaughtering Jews and Israelis. Seriously, compare Hamas's behavior to the tactics of Abu Mazen and Salam Fyyad, who is more successful in pressuring Israel?

Imagine what would happen to Israel's peace negotiations policy if Hamas will adopt the line of the PLO ? it will destroy the last line of "defence" we have against striking a deal with the palestinians

Again, I don't recall arguing that Hamas was pursuing an ideal path to peace. They are more heavily guided by a fundamentalist teleology than Fatah -- rather like your ultra-rightist settlers for whom homes are continuing to be built, illegally, on stolen land.

The question is really about property rights. My ancestors stole land on the American continent. The natives who opposed them did some absolutely brutal things. Not all native tribes did this -- some were "reasonable." Other just did their best to cut up Whitey. People have different reactions when their land taken and controlled by entities far more powerful than they -- it's a psychological sink pit. Some try to appease and make the best of it, others fight tooth and nail.

Real responsibility, and the need for forbearance, lies with those that have the might and the power. In this case, that would be Israel, who first and foremost should remove settlements and relinquish control.

Your country is not going to face obliteration by the Palestinian hordes just by backing off a bit, you know.

quote:
Hamas has thousands of rockets that can target hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Hamas targets Israeli cities in order to kill and terrorize civilians.
Be'er Sheva is a city of 300K citizens and its constantly bombed by Hamas, Ashdod a city of 250K also constantly bombed

Both these cities are 30-40km away from Gaza, do you think we are going to sit idly while our cities are bombed, because we have a stronger army ?

And the vast majority of those attacks do nothing, comparatively speaking. You speak almost exclusively in terms of imagined potentiality, not reality. Pure hyperbole.

Here is the reality

quote:
Dont you see whats going on here?
Who are the main persuiters against Israel and its allegedly crimes against humanity ?

All the humane and liberal muslim countries and their african block allies.

These countries want to take Israel's ability to defend itself, because these countries want to destory Israel.

Countries such as Lybia who sit in the UN comitee for human rights (funny ha?) call for a UN report on Israel's crimes against humanity. This is a campaign to take away Israel's power of self defense.

The final goal of these countries is that Isreal ceases to exist.

My whole point here is that the "crimes against humanity" argument is over-the-top and hyperbolic on both sides, and doomed to go no where.

The only solution is for both sides to stop building caricatures of their enemies, and deal with the question of property and land rights.

Also, you must surely realize the cheapness of the tactic your using here. The truth of "position X" is no less true because certain delusional parties support it.

There is good reason to investigate casualties at the hand of Israel, aside from fulfilling the fantasies of its enemies.

quote:
Israel and Israelis get upset not because the world holds us to a higher standard than our enemies, but to itself. begin by judging us with the same standards you judge yourselves, it will be a great improvement.
I *am* holding you to the same standard I hold my own country to.

[ April 05, 2011, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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KidTokyo
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Jason,

quote:
And if the outrage against Israel and phony accusations of genocide were coming primarily from the next of kin of the deceased, I would be alot more sympathetic. I wonder how many people protesting last week in the latest anti-Israel march had to pick up the body parts of their loved ones from the rubble of a bombed out house?
Well, they *do* come from the next of kin of the deceased. And from others as well, for a whole mess of reasons, some good, some not so good.

Speaking for myself, I have known a number of Palestinians. None have suffered immediate loss to their families, but all have suffered indignities and humiliations at the hands of Israeli soldiers that would get any NYC cop in Bushwick thrown under the jail for several life sentences.

Have you ever come home to find that your mother was tied up in your living room, while soldiers more well-armed that your entire neighborhood arsenal roamed about your house with impunity? Personally, I would flip.

[ April 05, 2011, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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Hannibal
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quote:
Here is the reality
No, Here is the reality. And here
And here
And Here



All of the above are just small pieces of the reality in Israel, when/if our defence organizations do not strictly enforce security for the citizens of Israel.

You can go around it as much as you want, call us whatever you want, but at the end, when push comes to shove, the palestinians have not yet stopped with their murderous intent of killing Jews and Israelis whenever it is possible for them to do so.

The fact that recently we got better at preventing them from murduring us, limiting them "only" to a random butchery act in a settlement here, or a rocket attack there, does not mean that they want to systematically murder as many of us as they can.

This is a fundamental issue.

You can talk about the settlements and draw parallelisms between extreme settlers and the Hamas terrorist organization as much as you want.

However, it is all strawman equivalences , spins, and craps

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Again, it isn't about whether something is justified morally or academically. It's about the practical consequences that follow on from those deaths; and that doesn't depend on intent so much as it does merely on numbers.
Quite true. And if the outrage against Israel and phony accusations of genocide were coming primarily from the next of kin of the deceased, I would be alot more sympathetic. I wonder how many people protesting last week in the latest anti-Israel march had to pick up the body parts of their loved ones from the rubble of a bombed out house?
A guy walks into a doctor's office and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor says, "Nu, don't do that."

Stop attacking us, and you won't have to pick body parts out of rubble. If they lay down their arms, the fighting ends. If we lay down our arms, Israel ends.

Can you really not comprehend the evil behind a "nationality" that was cynically created as a weapon? A nationality that never actually existed, and exists only for the sake of destroying another?

If Israel is at fault, it's for taking pussy half measures and allowing this thing to go on as long as it has. You don't bandage a gangrenous arm; you cut it off.

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KidTokyo
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Hannibal,

Showing pictures of blood and gore is pointless. There are plenty of pictures of dead Palestinian children I could put up -- but shocking people with emotionalism is childish. It's not an argument.

The only substantive link you have is cherry-picked from the 2001-2003 when suicide bombing attacks were quite numerous.

They soon after rapidly declined in number, and have ceased altogether since 2008

Rocket attacks have drastically declined as well

You'll see from this second chart as well that rockets attacks have killed a total of 29 Israelis in the last ten years. I am quite sure that far more Israelis were killed in the same period by bicycle accidents.

You'll also note that the rocket-to-fatality ratio is something like 150-to-1 on a "good" day. That suggests to me that either these are total crap rockets, or that, for the most part, those who fire them are trying to frighten rather than kill.

Either way, there is no existential threat posed by them.

That it not to say that Israel should do nothing. But it does suggest to me that its reactions are vastly disproportionate.

While we're at it -- why does Israel continue to invade and build when the Palestinians have drastically decreased their violent activities?

quote:
The fact that recently we got better at preventing them from murduring us, limiting them "only" to a random butchery act in a settlement here, or a rocket attack there, does not mean that they want to systematically murder as many of us as they can.
It strikes me that if they wanted to systematically murder Israelis, as many as possible, they could do a lot more than they are now.

At any rate, by attributing the change purely to Israel's "getting better at stopping them" you create an unfalsifiable statement -- there is now no conceivable evidence that would indicate to you a change of heart on the Palestinian side. Your criteria makes rational apprehension impossible -- whatever happens, it's all because of Israel.

Can't you see that this is self-perpetuating delusion?

quote:
This is a fundamental issue.

You can talk about the settlements and draw parallelisms between extreme settlers and the Hamas terrorist organization as much as you want.

The fundamental issue is that they are fighting for their land with weapons, just like Israel did, just like everyone does. If they were better armed, we'd have had peace long ago. The imbalance of power is what perpetuates the situation.

Star Lisa said:

quote:
Stop attacking us, and you won't have to pick body parts out of rubble. If they lay down their arms, the fighting ends. If we lay down our arms, Israel ends
It seems to me they have stopped attacking you.

No one is asking you to lay down your arms.

They're asking you to pull out of your illegal settlements and give Palestinians true autonomy over what is rightfully theirs.

That includes the right to arm themselves -- a necessity for building any state.

quote:
If Israel is at fault, it's for taking pussy half measures and allowing this thing to go on as long as it has. You don't bandage a gangrenous arm; you cut it off.
You mean -- kill all of them?

[ April 05, 2011, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Star Lisa said:

quote:
Stop attacking us, and you won't have to pick body parts out of rubble. If they lay down their arms, the fighting ends. If we lay down our arms, Israel ends
It seems to me they have stopped attacking you.
Then you aren't paying attention. The rockets keep coming from Gaza. Attacks continue to happen all the time. Many of them are prevented by Israel's security services, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. And tell the Fogel family that attacks have stopped. Two parents and three children, including an infant, butchered in their beds.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
No one is asking you to lay down your arms.

They're asking you to pull out of your illegal settlements and give Palestinians true autonomy over what is rightfully theirs.

There are no "illegal settlements". That's a buzzword that's been bandied around so long that, like any Big Lie, it doesn't get questioned enough. For those towns to be "illegal", you'd have to say that they're being built on land that was taken from another sovereign power, which is simply not the case. That land was taken from the Ottoman Turks by the Allied Powers in WWI. They assigned Britain to oversee the area for the purpose of creating a Jewish state. There was no Palestinian state there, nor any Palestinian Arab national identity. The Brits cut 79% of it off to be an Arab state, and we now call that Jordan. But while the Jews to the east of the Jordan were forced to leave, the Arabs to the west of it weren't. So they started fighting over the 21% that was left. Finally, the Brits had had enough and handed the whole situation over to the UN. The UN came up with a plan to split the remaining 21% between Jews and Arabs, with more than half of the part designated for the Jews being total arid desert. The Palestinian Jews accepted this, because it was better than nothing. The Palestinian Arabs refused it, and they and the armies of 5 Arab countries attacked the Jews in an attempt to kill them all. At the end of this war, Jordan had captured what you now call the West Bank. They annexed it, but the annexation wasn't recognized by anyone in the world other than Britain and Pakistan. The Jews who had been living there on land that they had bought were massacred or imprisoned or thrown out. But the tiny sliver of a country left to the Jews was still too much for the Arabs to accept, so they attacked again in 1967, which resulted in our getting that part of the land back. Israel should have annexed it right then, but unfortunately, we didn't. We decided to administer those territories. Not "occupy" them, because occupation has a legal definition, and what Israel is doing doesn't fit that definition.

You and people like you pretend that there was a state called Palestine with a nation called Palestinians, and that Israel conquered that state and is occupying it. But that's a huge steaming pile of nonsense.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
That includes the right to arm themselves -- a necessity for building any state.

They aren't a state. They're a bunch of bandits. Even their noncombatants give aid and comfort to perpetrators of the worst kinds of atrocities. They name schools and streets and sports centers after the butchers of little children.

There will never be an Arab state on the west side of the Jordan river. Never. And the sooner you people come to grips with that, the sooner the insanity can end.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
If Israel is at fault, it's for taking pussy half measures and allowing this thing to go on as long as it has. You don't bandage a gangrenous arm; you cut it off.
You mean -- kill all of them?
Don't be stupid. Just like the Brits expelled the Jews on the east of the Jordan and the Jordanians expelled the Jews in the "West Bank", any Arabs who won't agree to accept Jewish sovereignty need to leave.
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velcro
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KidTokyo,

I may have missed it, but did you address my comments?

Aris,

As soon as you can definitively quantify the badness of negligence vs. intentional violence, we can compare Israel to Hamas. Until then, all we can say is one act is worse than the other.

And, without having gone through it myself, I think I would treat a police sniper who missed and killed a bystander differently from a serial killer, even if the police might have been able to talk their way out of the sniper situation.

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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
There will never be an Arab state on the west side of the Jordan river. Never. And the sooner you people come to grips with that, the sooner the insanity can end.

Just to be clear on what you are saying here, the 'West Bank' area currently under the 'authority' of the Palestinian Authority, as well as the Gaza strip, will always be a part of the political entity known as Israel, correct?
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KidTokyo
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quote:
At the end of this war, Jordan had captured what you now call the West Bank. They annexed it, but the annexation wasn't recognized by anyone in the world other than Britain and Pakistan. The Jews who had been living there on land that they had bought were massacred or imprisoned or thrown out. But the tiny sliver of a country left to the Jews was still too much for the Arabs to accept, so they attacked again in 1967, which resulted in our getting that part of the land back. Israel should have annexed it right then, but unfortunately, we didn't. We decided to administer those territories. Not "occupy" them, because occupation has a legal definition, and what Israel is doing doesn't fit that definition.


I know the history. International law states quite specifically that you cannot build settlements on land which you "administer." The precedents of international law state that you need to relinquish that territory.

You already have most of Palestine.

It is actally very weak on Israel's part to use this argument, since, as a practical matter, it needs peace much more than it needs new houses to appease its radical right wing.

Living with neighbors is about compromise.

quote:
They aren't a state. They're a bunch of bandits. Even their noncombatants give aid and comfort to perpetrators of the worst kinds of atrocities. They name schools and streets and sports centers after the butchers of little children.


They are stateless, and yet you hold them to the standards of a state -- i.e. "they" need to control "their terrorists."

You can't have it both ways. If they are lone actors, you have no basis for claiming repsirals against them as a people.

quote:
Don't be stupid. Just like the Brits expelled the Jews on the east of the Jordan and the Jordanians expelled the Jews in the "West Bank", any Arabs who won't agree to accept Jewish sovereignty need to leave.
Again, a very silly argument, since Israel's sovereignty is in no danger whatsoever. There is no existential threat.

How are "bandits" supposed to acknowledge state sovereignty? By definition, they can't. Why do you seek formal state recognition from outlaws?

Your arguments are absolutely absurd. You are driven by emotion.

You need to acknowledge *their* sovereignty, and allow them to build a state, so that you actually have a mature entity to deal with.

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KidTokyo
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velcro,

Your question isn't really relevant. It's just an academic excercise in moral reasoning.

The most pressing moral question is why the country with overwhelming power, which is under no existential threat at all, behaves as if its hands are tied and its existence is in peril, and perptuates a situation which leads to warfare unnecessarily?

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Hannibal
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"You'll see from this second chart as well that rockets attacks have killed a total of 29 Israelis in the last ten years. I am quite sure that far more Israelis were killed in the same period by bicycle accidents. "

You are obviously not aruging with me in good faith if you keep throwing strawmen arguemnts one after the other.

How many americans died in car accidents in 2001 ?

SERIOUSLY dude, are you REALLY judging me in the same standards you judge your own country?

"You'll also note that the rocket-to-fatality ratio is something like 150-to-1 on a "good" day. That suggests to me that either these are total crap rockets, or that, for the most part, those who fire them are trying to frighten rather than kill."

Than the answer is simple, the reason why thankfully a low number of deaths occured is because of several factors :
a) these are totaly crap rockets, with home made rocket fuel and home made alloys and home made explosives (although the longer range ones are military standard issue)
b)Israeli buildings are made of concrete and not wood like in the states, further more, All Israeli buildings have what is called a "safe zone" which is even made of reinforced concrete and can take a direct hit
c) Israel has a constant presense of drones , satelites and other monitoring equipment, so rocket launching groups have a couple of seconds to set up their rocket and shoot it before they must run away, and still many of the rocket teams die before they even fire the rocket
d)Israel has the best in the world early warning system that provides people with 10-15 seconds to run for cover.
e)Since two weeks ago Israel also became the first country in the world to have a tactical anti-rocket defence system

To conclude, NO, they dont want to scare, they most definitly want to kill.

"But it does suggest to me that its reactions are vastly disproportionate."

Disporoportionate reaction is such a western liberal double standard crap. If you ask me, Israel under-reacts to attacks on its cities and citizens, not over-reacts

"The fundamental issue is that they are fighting for their land"

No, they are not, they could have had their own land 12 years ago, They are fighting for OUR land.

We can sign a peace treaty with them in 2-3 months once their negotiation demands become reasonable.
They are not negotiating with us because they know that by negotiating it will be revealed for all to see that they are not really interested in their own land, but they are really interested in ours.

"there is now no conceivable evidence that would indicate to you a change of heart on the Palestinian side"

You are wrong here, wrong a great deal, there are plenty of concievable evidences that could indicate to me that there is a change of heart in the palestinian side:
a) stop propoganda in state television, schools, mosques
b) stop naming schools, streets after butchers
c) most importantly, recognize Israel as the state of the jews
d) F***ING negotiate with us for a peace agreement instead of demanding that we stop building in the settlements before negotiation can start


"It seems to me they have stopped attacking you."

Than you are wrong on two planes.

first of all, they did not stop attacking us, see the fogel family two weeks ago. a week ago there was a terror attack in Jerusalem that killed a brittish national woman. these attacks came from the west bank not from Gaza. There are obviously the rocket attacks.

Every two-three months there is an occasional drive by shooting.

They did not stop attacking us phisically.

Secondly they are attacking us , quite successfully, on the political level.

Currently everyone on earth pretty much is sure that we Israelis are the sole obstacle for peace, and that it is impossible to negotiate with us. Every body talks about how the UN is going to declare unilaterally a palestinian state in September.

Why should the palestnians negotiate with us and come to a *settlement* with us, if the UN will give them EVERYTHING in september ?

"That includes the right to arm themselves -- a necessity for building any state. "

Again with the double standards ha?
were the sbarro restaurant a millitary target? is a public bus a military target? slaughtering the fogel family... they were the military target, especially the 3 month old infant.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
You are obviously not aruging with me in good faith if you keep throwing strawmen arguemnts one after the other.

How many americans died in car accidents in 2001 ?

SERIOUSLY dude, are you REALLY judging me in the same standards you judge your own country?


Yes. Please try to be rational about this. There are horrible murders (like those images you linked to) in NYC almost every day, and NYC employs a very large police force to stop them. It's an ongoing job, but no one contends that New York's existence as a city is threatened by it.

It is pure sophistry to argue that because these perps are not Israelis they somehow pose a special threat to Israel. It is especially disingenous, since you and Star Lisa and other Israeli nationalists are endless hammering home the point that Palestinians are stateless criminals.

Your are continuing to argue a moral point. I'm not interested -- it's empty. Your justification for Israel's immovability is premised on an untruth -- that its existence is threatened. It is operating on a paranoid world-view, and as it continues to do so, it will continue to fail to make headway.

If Palestinians are stateless criminals, then they are not state actors, and the IDF...are basically cops. With the difference being that the Palestinians have no Constitutional rights.

And you and everyone who serves in the IDF are basically performing routine law enforcement. Your leaders clearly have no intention of changing this situation.

Again, why would they? They benefit from the routine, it keeps them in power, and border creep continues.

quote:
Than the answer is simple, the reason why thankfully a low number of deaths occured is because of several factors :
a) these are totaly crap rockets, with home made rocket fuel and home made alloys and home made explosives (although the longer range ones are military standard issue)
b)Israeli buildings are made of concrete and not wood like in the states, further more, All Israeli buildings have what is called a "safe zone" which is even made of reinforced concrete and can take a direct hit
c) Israel has a constant presense of drones , satelites and other monitoring equipment, so rocket launching groups have a couple of seconds to set up their rocket and shoot it before they must run away, and still many of the rocket teams die before they even fire the rocket
d)Israel has the best in the world early warning system that provides people with 10-15 seconds to run for cover.
e)Since two weeks ago Israel also became the first country in the world to have a tactical anti-rocket defence system


All of which is good reason to stop acting like Israel is on the precipice of doom. If this doesn't cool the heads of your leaders down a little bit -- what will?

quote:
To conclude, NO, they dont want to scare, they most definitly want to kill.


But for the most part, they fail miserably.

quote:
If you ask me, Israel under-reacts to attacks on its cities and citizens, not over-reacts


What would that solve? What would it accomplish?

quote:
Than you are wrong on two planes.

first of all, they did not stop attacking us, see the fogel family two weeks ago. a week ago there was a terror attack in Jerusalem that killed a brittish national woman. these attacks came from the west bank not from Gaza. There are obviously the rocket attacks.

Every two-three months there is an occasional drive by shooting.

They did not stop attacking us phisically.


These are very sad events, but in the grand scheme of death and dying over the course of the year, they are minimal.

If Palestinians were allowed the means to an organized state, with which you had peaceful relations, you could cooperate with Palestinian authorities to find the criminals who do this, just as you would a madman in Israel who did something similar.

If you deny them a state, you have no basis for referring to a collective "they," collectively responsible for the act of every murderuous individual or cadre.

quote:
Secondly they are attacking us , quite successfully, on the political level.

Currently everyone on earth pretty much is sure that we Israelis are the sole obstacle for peace, and that it is impossible to negotiate with us. Every body talks about how the UN is going to declare unilaterally a palestinian state in September.

Why should the palestnians negotiate with us and come to a *settlement* with us, if the UN will give them EVERYTHING in september ?


I would say that Israel has massively failed on the political level, wouldn't you? I hope the UN does give them everything. You had plenty of time to act like adults about this, but instead you chose eye-for-eye retribution and terror.

This is what it gets you.

quote:
Again with the double standards ha?
were the sbarro restaurant a millitary target? is a public bus a military target? slaughtering the fogel family... they were the military target, especially the 3 month old infant.

Those are crimes, regardless of who does them and how they got the weapons. I'm not defending those actions.

You don't understand. Perhaps you can't.

I expect Israel, with its power and its education, to know better how to deal with the crimes of desperate, underpriveleged fanatics. I expect Israel to act with wisdom rather than brute force.

I expect Israel to know well enough to see past the wrongness of those crimes to know that it can't let those actions define its greater policy.

Because you unwittingly let them win.

These poor, illiterate fanatics with crude weapons are winning the war of world opinion and you're handing them their victory. Incredible lack of vision and imagination on Israel's part.

Those are the results. You can't argue with them.

Everything Israel has going for it, and it couldn't do better in all this time?

America fell into the exact same trap after 9/11. Israel's been there a while, it seems.

[ April 05, 2011, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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Hannibal
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"there are horrible murders (like those images you linked to) in NYC almost every day, and NYC employs a very large police force to stop them.."

These are not crimes of criminal intent. people were murdered not for the sake of their money or some other motive. Cant you see the difference? these are nationalistic crimes, people were murdered because they are Jewish.

"It is pure sophistry to argue that because these perps are not Israelis they somehow pose a special threat to Israel. "

When did I ever say that the "military might" of the various palestinian terrorist organizations a threat to Israel ?
The only military 3000km around Tel Aviv that might threaten us is in Iran.

Rocket attacks from gaza are not a "threat to the existance of our state" an ocassional suicide bomber is also not a "threat to our existance"
so what? so we ignore them ?

"you could cooperate with Palestinian authorities to find the criminals who do this"

We do, we do cooperate with the PLO, with Hamas we cant cooperate, that is why there was no Israeli retaliation to the murder of the fogel family, or to the bomb in Jerusalem last week. I think that we never had such a prolific cooperation "on the ground level" with the palestinian organizations.

In contrast, can you please describe me a scenario where we can cooperate with Hamas?

"What would that solve? What would it accomplish?"

Take a look at the history of the middle east, every several years or so, Israel has to "go-berserk" then there is a period of calm, then some arab faction attacks Israel untill it becomes un bearable, then Israel has to "go-berserk" again and the circle continues....


"I would say that Israel has massively failed on the political level, wouldn't you?"

I would definitly agree with you that we failed miserably, but not entirely from the reasons you pointed out.

1) Israel is currently singled out as the obsticle for peace, but with whom exactly should Israel make peace ? with the palestinians of the west bank ? or the palestinians of gaza ? because both of these palestinians are in blood fued against each other

2) The Entire world's (Including Israel's) approach to a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian is a two state solution, where the jewish state and palestinian state live side by side.
The palestinian's approach for to a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a one state solution. Currently the palestinians conditions for a peace treaty with Israel literaly mean our doom. do you want to force us to sign a document that will spell our doom ?

3) Israel already showed that it is capable of mass eviction of its people, in 1982 Israel completley withrawn its forces and populace from the Sinai peninsula, in 2005 Israel completley withrawn its forces and populace out of the Gaza strip. So why insist on the settlements freeze ? it is obvious that if an agreement will be made where israel needs to withraw its population from a certain territory, Israel will do it, It was also never a condition in the past, this is a new condition that started right after Obama came into office.

Given all that, I myself think that Israel SHOULD have froze the settlements, but I also have no doubt in my mind that the settlements as an "issue" are not the blockage for our negotiations with the palestinians.


We definitly failed miserably, because we did not convey to the world these 3 points succesfully.

"I expect Israel to know well enough to see past the wrongness of those crimes towards to know that it can't let those actions define its greater policy."

You can be as melodramatic as you want, but at the end, Israel has to defend its citizens. These are not simple crimes per-se, as I said these are nationalistic crimes, and a certain level of protection for the populace is required out of any country.

Why did we build the seperation wall ? because of the long list of bloody crimes I posted several hours ago.

Why does Hamas resort to rockets? because they are enclaved, they can do very little else.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
These are not crimes of criminal intent. people were murdered not for the sake of their money or some other motive. Cant you see the difference? these are nationalistic crimes, people were murdered because they are Jewish.

Of course I see the difference. What does that have to do with how you bring about a situation where they cease?

quote:
Rocket attacks from gaza are not a "threat to the existance of our state" an ocassional suicide bomber is also not a "threat to our existance"
so what? so we ignore them ?


Of course not. You deal with it as a crime. Keeping entire neighborhoods and cities on lockdown, under martial law, is collective punishment. That is wrong, and counterproductive, because it breeds resentment.

quote:
We do, we do cooperate with the PLO, with Hamas we cant cooperate, that is why there was no Israeli retaliation to the murder of the fogel family, or to the bomb in Jerusalem last week. I think that we never had such a prolific cooperation "on the ground level" with the palestinian organizations.


Glad to hear it.

quote:
In contrast, can you please describe me a scenario where we can cooperate with Hamas?


I can't. Nor can I describe a situation in which Hamas cooperates with you. Therefore, you must find other solutions initially -- which make it possible for a more viable state run by more moderate leaders to emerge.

Make radicalism irrelevent. If you have a peace treaty with the PLO (which as you say is now copperative), you're most of the way there.

quote:
Take a look at the history of the middle east, every several years or so, Israel has to "go-berserk" then there is a period of calm, then some arab faction attacks Israel untill it becomes un bearable, then Israel has to "go-berserk" again and the circle continues....

That it not at all accurate, and is easily falsified by the links I've already provided.

quote:
Israel is currently singled out as the obsticle for peace, but with whom exactly should Israel make peace ? with the palestinians of the west bank ? or the palestinians of gaza ? because both of these palestinians are in blood fued against each other


The separation between the two should, if anything, make it easier for you. Stop telling yourself that this question is difficult to answer.

quote:
The Entire world's (Including Israel's) approach to a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian is a two state solution, where the jewish state and palestinian state live side by side.
The palestinian's approach for to a solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a one state solution. Currently the palestinians conditions for a peace treaty with Israel literaly mean our doom. do you want to force us to sign a document that will spell our doom

Nonsense. I'll quote Mr. Avnery, one of your former Knesset members:

If both sides – and this depends heavily on Israel, the incomparably stronger side - really want peace, peace is there for the asking. All the requirements are lying plainly on the table. They have been discussed endlessly. The points for compromise are clearly marked. It would need no more than a few weeks to work out the details. Borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, water, security – we all know by now what the solutions are. (I and others have enumerated them several times.) What is lacking is the political will.

quote:
Israel already showed that it is capable of mass eviction of its people, in 1982 Israel completley withrawn its forces and populace from the Sinai peninsula, in 2005 Israel completley withrawn its forces and populace out of the Gaza strip. So why insist on the settlements freeze ? it is obvious that if an agreement will be made where israel needs to withraw its population from a certain territory, Israel will do it, It was also never a condition in the past, this is a new condition that started right after Obama came into office.


Legally, the settlements are a violation.

Morally, they are wrong.

Pragmatically, they are creating huge problems if you want the Palestinians to believe you have anything like an earnest interest in peace.

Gaza is a mere fraction of the size of the settlements in the west bank.

You can't possibly think that anything will be accomplished by continuing to build?

quote:
Given all that, I myself think that Israel SHOULD have froze the settlements, but I also have no doubt in my mind that the settlements as an "issue" are not the blockage for our negotiations with the palestinians.


That's willfull blindness.

quote:
You can be as melodramatic as you want, but at the end, Israel has to defend its citizens. These are not simple crimes per-se, as I said these are nationalistic crimes, and a certain level of protection for the populace is required out of any country.


Of course. A certain level. Not pounding the shyte out of entire neighborhoods. It's not making the situation better, not making Israel safer.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
There will never be an Arab state on the west side of the Jordan river. Never. And the sooner you people come to grips with that, the sooner the insanity can end.

Just to be clear on what you are saying here, the 'West Bank' area currently under the 'authority' of the Palestinian Authority, as well as the Gaza strip, will always be a part of the political entity known as Israel, correct?
That is correct.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
At the end of this war, Jordan had captured what you now call the West Bank. They annexed it, but the annexation wasn't recognized by anyone in the world other than Britain and Pakistan. The Jews who had been living there on land that they had bought were massacred or imprisoned or thrown out. But the tiny sliver of a country left to the Jews was still too much for the Arabs to accept, so they attacked again in 1967, which resulted in our getting that part of the land back. Israel should have annexed it right then, but unfortunately, we didn't. We decided to administer those territories. Not "occupy" them, because occupation has a legal definition, and what Israel is doing doesn't fit that definition.


I know the history. International law states quite specifically that you cannot build settlements on land which you "administer." The precedents of international law state that you need to relinquish that territory.
First, it doesn't say that. Second, "relinquish it" to whom? Who on earth has a better claim to it than we do? There's no prior polity that we took it from, so relinquish it to whom? And why?

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
You already have most of Palestine.

Bullcrap. Jordan has most of it. We have most of the 21% that was left after Britain chopped the east bank off.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
It is actally very weak on Israel's part to use this argument, since, as a practical matter, it needs peace much more than it needs new houses to appease its radical right wing.

You don't understand. Which I guess makes sense, since you fail to recognize the goal of the so-called Palestinians. They will not make peace with us so long as Israel exists. They don't see Tel Aviv as any different than Ramallah (which they happen to be right about, but for the wrong reasons). As far as they're concerned, Tel Aviv and Haifa are "occupied". The Galilee is "occupied". Do you think the PLO came into being to "liberate" the West Bank and Gaza? That'd be kind of funny, considering that the PLO was founded 3 years before the Six Day War.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Living with neighbors is about compromise.

Ethnocentrism and racism of the worst kind. You think you're so enlightened and liberal, and yet you're unable (or unwilling) to consider that other cultures see the world differently. You see compromise as a positive state of affairs. To you, peace means that I give up some of my claim and you give up some of yours, and we find a happy medium. You share this with most westerners. But you don't understand what salaam means to Muslims. It means that the weak submits to the strong. And that's not because they're "bad people"; it's simply a different way of looking at the world. Not better and not worse, in principle.

The so-called Palestinians are not just Americans with different clothing and language and foods. Read this. Maybe it'll help.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
They aren't a state. They're a bunch of bandits. Even their noncombatants give aid and comfort to perpetrators of the worst kinds of atrocities. They name schools and streets and sports centers after the butchers of little children.


They are stateless, and yet you hold them to the standards of a state -- i.e. "they" need to control "their terrorists."
I hold them to the standards of a coherent group. State or no state. They identify as a single group.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
You can't have it both ways. If they are lone actors, you have no basis for claiming repsirals against them as a people.

Who says they're lone actors? You're making a false dichotomy.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
Don't be stupid. Just like the Brits expelled the Jews on the east of the Jordan and the Jordanians expelled the Jews in the "West Bank", any Arabs who won't agree to accept Jewish sovereignty need to leave.
Again, a very silly argument, since Israel's sovereignty is in no danger whatsoever. There is no existential threat.
Yes, there is.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
How are "bandits" supposed to acknowledge state sovereignty? By definition, they can't. Why do you seek formal state recognition from outlaws?

I don't. I don't give a flying frak if they "recognize" us. That's a stupid goal, if you ask me. I want them gone.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Your arguments are absolutely absurd. You are driven by emotion.

Wrong. I'm driven by knowledge.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
You need to acknowledge *their* sovereignty, and allow them to build a state, so that you actually have a mature entity to deal with.

They have no sovereignty. They have no right to a state in the heartland of the nation they were created to destroy.
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KidTokyo
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StarLisa,

I'll provide factual refutation when I have more time, suffice to say that I have read the UN resolution in this matter and I don't think I'm remembering it incorrectly,

I won't be lectured by you about "understanding other cultures." I personally know a number of Palestinians and Jordanians, and I know that you cannot reduce them to axiomatic patterns of behavior, as you'd like to.

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KidTokyo
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I'll add that you continue to forgo the practical and the necessary in favor of inflexible absolutism, to the detriment of all.

You can have a two-state solution this time, next year, if your leadership wants it. Your believe that you "deserve" the west bank more than anyone else is a childish conceit, basically worthless to achieving peace.

Ah, but you just want them gone...and I'm the racist? The ethnocentrist?

Lisa, I don't even believe race exists, and I have science to back me up on that.

And your conflation of race with ethnicity *is*, itself, actually racist.

[ April 05, 2011, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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velcro
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Kid,

Just for background, I believe that Jews have a right to build houses in the West Bank just as much as Arabs. I also believe that it would do Israel no harm to completely freeze settlements for 6 months. (including East Jerusalem and all "natural growth"). If that gets Palestinians to discuss the fundamental issues in a rational way, everything is good. Territory that is clearly going to Israel can be built on by Israel, territory that is clearly going to Palestinians can still have a building freeze during negotiations. That sounds like a perfect plan for a two state solution.

How does that sound to you? What do you think the likelihood is that Palestinians would negotiate in good faith with a freeze? Given that Israel has proven it will dismantle settlements for peace, in Sinai and Gaza, why does a freeze matter so much to Palestinians, other than as an excuse not to negotiate? Has the PLO apologized for attacks before 1967, when there were no settlements? What about the current Palestinian refusal to accept Israel as a Jewish state? What about Hamas? What about Palestinian denial that there was ever a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem? What about their continued incitement against Israel, in schools, on the radio, in mosques?

Israel was attacked in 1948 and effectively 1967. When they tried to negotiate, they were rebuffed, and attacked again in 1973. Do those responsible for the attacks, and those who benefit from the attacks pay nothing? Israel gets no additional security for the huge (proportionately) losses they incurred from these defensive wars?

As far as the rockets being ineffective, please answer this honestly - If your neighbor threw rocks at your kids while they played in the backyard, would you be ok with that? If there were only two or three trips to the emergency room, one or two eyes missing, broken windows only once a week, that would be fine? If the police did nothing, and you couldn't move, what would you do? What if it was other kids whose parents are having you watch them?

Would it be just a little more than throwing rocks back? Be honest. I don't need to know your answer, but be honest with yourself.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
You can have a two-state solution this time, next year, if your leadership wants it.

Then I guess it's lucky that we have no leadership. Yet. Because the "two-state solution" is just a giant step towards the dissolution of Israel. The Arabs know it. I can't figure out if you know it too, or if you're simply naive.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Your believe that you "deserve" the west bank more than anyone else is a childish conceit, basically worthless to achieving peace.

We don't want your version of peace. It's the "rest in peace" kind.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Ah, but you just want them gone...and I'm the racist? The ethnocentrist?

Yes.
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Hannibal
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"Of course not. You deal with it as a crime. Keeping entire neighborhoods and cities on lockdown, under martial law, is collective punishment. That is wrong, and counterproductive, because it breeds resentment. "

We dont have any lockdown or marshal law in Gaza, we have no phisical presense in Gaza. All we did was to block Gazans from entering Israel, and block Israelis from entering Gaza. And we enforce a naval embargo on them, with accordance to the laws of war.

"If you have a peace treaty with the PLO (which as you say is now copperative), you're most of the way there. "

Yes, we are most of the way there, however as I stated in my last post, are the settlements really the obstacle for peace? or maybe its something else


"The separation between the two(Hamas and PLO) should, if anything, make it easier for you. Stop telling yourself that this question is difficult to answer. "

Why easier for us ? After we will sign a peace treaty with the PLO that will allegedly "end the conflict" we will still be in total war with Hamas, which will still fire rockets and make suicide attacks and whatever on Israel, but we will be powerless to retaliate because it would seem that we broke the peace treaty with the palestinians, due to the fact that we signed a peace treaty with the PLO.


"Nonsense. I'll quote Mr. Avnery, one of your former Knesset members:"

Wow... now that Mr. Avnery said so, I am convinced.
Listen I know, if not in two weeks, than once both sides really negotiate it can end within months. I know Uri Avneri, he is a very optimistic person, and I really hope that he is right to be that optimist, so far there arent many justifications to his optimism. The palestinians are refusing to negotiate with us in full heartedness. As yourself if this is really because of the settlements, I am jumping from your post to something that velcro said :
" I also believe that it would do Israel no harm to completely freeze settlements for 6 months. (including East Jerusalem and all "natural growth"). If that gets Palestinians to discuss the fundamental issues in a rational way, everything is good. Territory that is clearly going to Israel can be built on by Israel, territory that is clearly going to Palestinians can still have a building freeze during negotiations. That sounds like a perfect plan for a two state solution."

Well than news flash Kid & Velcro, Israel had froze the settlements completley, not for 6 months but for 10 months. Did the palestinians negotiate with us ? No they have not, they wasted 9.5 months to "see if we are really freezing" and about two weeks before the freeze ended they met with our P.M once, and scheduled the next meeting after the freeze were to end. After the freeze ended the palestinians suspended the negotiations again.

Why dont the palesitnians want to negotiate with us ? Percisly because of what Uri Avneri said.

That is right "Everyone knows" how the peace agreement will look like, there will be a two state solution, there will be a solution for east jerusalem, and a compromise with the refugees and it can all be settled within a short time.
"Everyone knows" this, except the palestinians, they want a "one-state-solution" so they postpone the negotiations.

It was extremely short sightedness out of our P.M not to extend the freeze a couple of months simply to expose the palestinians, but I did not vote for him, and I am not going to vote for him in the future, and in general I dont think very highly of him.
That however does not mean that he is to blame to why we are not negotiating with the palesitnians.

"Pragmatically, they are creating huge problems if you want the Palestinians to believe you have anything like an earnest interest in peace. "

Since 1993 to 2008 there was no call to freeze the settlements, this is a new thing. They are not creating huge problems because Israel is a country that is accountable for what it signs on paper. If Israel will sign that it will move 500,000 settlers, than it will move them, and everyone knows this, including the palestinians.


"You can't possibly think that anything will be accomplished by continuing to build?"

On the contrary Kid. Everything will ONLY be accomplished if we continue to build.
Explanation : In Israel, Only a right wing P.M can make peace treaties. (unless he is a very powerfull figure like Rabin) because the Left will automatically support him and the right will support him for fear of "what would happen if the left be in charge"
For the right to be with our P.M he needs to act as if business is usual with the settlements.
While he will later on literaly stab the settlers in the back by signing a peace treaty with the palestinians.

"Of course. A certain level. Not pounding the shyte out of entire neighborhoods. It's not making the situation better, not making Israel safer."

We are retaliating in a very limited manner, we are NOT leveling city blocks as you are pointing out, dont mistake our army with yours.


"You can have a two-state solution this time, next year, if your leadership wants it. Your believe that you "deserve" the west bank more than anyone else is a childish conceit, basically worthless to achieving peace."

Kid I want you to recognize that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution, and that Lisa is not even an Israeli, she lives in Chicago and only about 10-15% of Israelis have the same line of thinking that she has

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velcro
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Hannibal,

Not to quibble, but the 10 month freeze was not a complete freeze. Natural growth was allowed and building in E. Jerusalem was allowed. Also I think permits continued even if building did not. Would that have been a good enough gesture for a real peace partner? Probably. Did it leave the PA wiggle room to say building continued? Yes.

KidTokyo,

Why is a Jewish settlement in the West Bank morally wrong? I could see an Israeli army base as being wrong, but to make the West Bank Judenrein is morally wrong. According to international law, I think the West Bank was abandoned by the British, and no claims by any party have been widely recognized. Did I miss something? If not, Jews have as much right to settle there as Arabs.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
That is right "Everyone knows" how the peace agreement will look like, there will be a two state solution, there will be a solution for east jerusalem, and a compromise with the refugees and it can all be settled within a short time.
"Everyone knows" this, except the palestinians, they want a "one-state-solution" so they postpone the negotiations.

Don't you get it, Hannibal? That's never going to change. There won't be a two-state solution, because if, God forbid, anyone is stupid enough to try it, the Arabs will finish Israel. You're smart enough to understand that this is their intent, but naive enough to think it'll change.

quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
Kid I want you to recognize that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution, and that Lisa is not even an Israeli, she lives in Chicago and only about 10-15% of Israelis have the same line of thinking that she has

The majority of Israelis do not support a two-state solution. Even with the media in Israel trying its hardest to create a perception that it's the only option, there's still a majority against it. And if they realized that there were other options, that majority would become vastly larger.
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KidTokyo
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Hannibal,

quote:
We dont have any lockdown or marshal law in Gaza, we have no phisical presense in Gaza. All we did was to block Gazans from entering Israel, and block Israelis from entering Gaza. And we enforce a naval embargo on them, with accordance to the laws of war.


You have a lockdown in the west bank, no? It is not my understanding that Hamas sees itself as representing only the interests of Gaza.

The problem I have here, and with your same argument about the settlements "freeze," is that both "concessions" still retain Israel's presumptive rights to begin building and/or locking down whenever Israel sees fit. It leaves Palestinians trying to stay in your good graces for a privilege when what they want are rights. Any adult would want that.

Are we going to get into 242 again? Clause 1 & 2 are not interdependent, to be bargained against one another. That's not how it's written. You need to put more on the table than a temporary measure to stop violating what the other side sees as their permanent rights.

You seem to think these are generous offers. To me, and to Palestinians, they seem utterly disingenous and minimal, especially since building in the wb in the first place is an obviously aggressive move.

Of course, it's a typical negotiating maneuver, trying to set the agenda and the premises to your favor, worthy of a powerful opponent. But a powerful opponent would have stopped you from building there long ago, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

quote:
Since 1993 to 2008 there was no call to freeze the settlements, this is a new thing. They are not creating huge problems because Israel is a country that is accountable for what it signs on paper. If Israel will sign that it will move 500,000 settlers, than it will move them, and everyone knows this, including the palestinians.


and, from velcro

quote:
Why is a Jewish settlement in the West Bank morally wrong? I could see an Israeli army base as being wrong, but to make the West Bank Judenrein is morally wrong. According to international law, I think the West Bank was abandoned by the British, and no claims by any party have been widely recognized. Did I miss something? If not, Jews have as much right to settle there as Arabs.
The west bank is one of the "occupied territories" referred to in UN 242, meaning it is not a part of Israel under international law.

The settlements should never have been built there in the first place. Israel now wishes to claim, after years of illegal building, that it is a fait accompli and now the settlements are too numerous to remove. Its a way of making old issues moot, by slowly-but-surely taking advantage of the opposition's comparative weakness. I.e, border creep.

Hannibal's argument that "if Israel signs to do it" is something of a tautology, since it increasingly seems they are deliberately creating conditions so that they never have to sign on to do it.

And seriously, Hannibal, no call to freeze the settlements before 2008? Why was a commitment made by Israel to do so in 2003?


Hannibal said,

quote:
Kid I want you to recognize that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution, and that Lisa is not even an Israeli, she lives in Chicago and only about 10-15% of Israelis have the same line of thinking that she has
I do realize that (not about her being in Chicago, but the rest), and I apologize if at any point I carelessly conflated your views with hers. I have never thought her views represented the mainstream in Israel.
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starLisa
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Israeli soldiers don't let a pregnant Palestinian woman pass through a military barricade

Just terrible.

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