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Author Topic: Obama releases long-form birth certificate
Mormegil
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/27/president-obamas-long-form-birth-certificate

"There, was that so hard?" say all the satisfied birthers... oh, wait.

When I was in High School, I was taught that a person had to be a natural born citizen to be President. And that a natural born citizen could mean many things. Someone born on US soil is a natural born citizen, but if you were traveling abroad and had a child, you just registered the birth with the US Embassy and that child was also a natural born citizen.

So I have NEVER understood the whole birther thing, if not simply thinly veiled racism, it's completely unveiled idiocy. Even IF Obama had been physically born in Kenya, it wouldn't make any difference as to his eligibility to be President! His mother was American, and his birth was (clearly) registered with Hawaii... case closed.

But the birth certificate, released in 2008, said he was born in Hawaii. Apparently people believed in a vast conspiracy to forge the thing, so they... demanded another document. Why? If one is forged, why not the other?

And of course, that is what they will claim. That the long-form is forged as well. So why demand it in the first place?

Releasing the long-form will do nothing to satisfy the birthers, but it should put a stop to the high-profile Republicans from paying lip service to birther views.

So why did Obama release the thing? I enjoyed watching morons hang themselves with the rope they already had. Didn't the birther nonsense just make all Republicans by association look like idiots? Why spoil that?

Perhaps because Republican leadership was finally going to officially deny any legitimacy to the birthers, and Obama didn't want them to have any "high ground" in the mess they purposely let go on this long.

Or perhaps he really did just get tired of it all and want to talk about other things. Even laughing at stupid people gets old after a few years.

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Dave at Work
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He may have released it because several states have pending legislation that would require the disclosure of the long form birth certificate as a requirement of being on the ballot for President.

While I think the whole 'birther movement' to be kind of silly, it does serve to illuminate the fact that despite his claims during the primaries and the general election that he would run a more open and transparent administration his actions have told a different story. I'm glad he finally released the document and yes I think that there will be some that will make claims that is a forgery, but I think that most will move on.

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AI Wessex
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I don't equate having to produce your birth certificate with governmental transparency. This was nothing more than a witch hunt because he's black, a Democrat, and a target for several other flavors of xenophobia.
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PSRT
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quote:
it does serve to illuminate the fact that despite his claims during the primaries and the general election that he would run a more open and transparent administration his actions have told a different story.
It does nothing of the sort. Obama wouldn't have had access to the long form birth certificate, because Hawaii doesn't release it to people requesting copies of their birth certificates. It is not the official document required by law for anything (until now in Arizona, because Arizona is run by idiots), nor is it generally available to the public.

Your statement says far more about you and your knowledge of the topic than it says anything about Obama.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I don't equate having to produce your birth certificate with governmental transparency. This was nothing more than a witch hunt because he's black, a Democrat, and a target for several other flavors of xenophobia.

Another example of a liberal impugning every action a conservative does with the worst possible motive. There is no evidence or any logic that would imply the birther's were asking to see his birth certificate because he was black. The entire idea is completely silly, because we've had thousands of black candidates in this country and millions of Democratic candidates and there have not been similar requests.

The whole issue was one of residency. The claim was made that he didn't meet the residency requirements. I found the claim a stretch, just like I found the claim a stretch that George Bush stole the election in Florida. It's the same kind of partisan silliness you often see.

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Dave at Work
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It's illustrative of a pattern of behavior. He has had the ability to release this paperwork since he was first asked for it by Hillary Clinton in the Primaries, but he has gone out of his way to prevent it's release. It would have taken much less effort to simply release the document. Similarly, his administration has gone out of its way to put roadblocks in the way of releasing information to the press and the public despite his promise of more transparency in government. The Presidents actions informed his administration that despite his words transparency was not a priority and they followed suit. Maybe now that in this one case his actions have finally come around to match his words, other cases will follow and these new actions will inform this administration that transparency is important. Actions are at least as important as words if not more so. When your actions do not match you words your actions will speak louder.
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PSRT
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quote:
The whole issue was one of residency
No its not. Obama released the information containing all the information required both by law, and by non-idiots, to establish that he is a citizen of the United States, born in Hawaii, and he did so well before the 2008 elections.
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AI Wessex
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Whether you agreed with Gore's position our not, it was a legal challenge to actual events. Here there were no facts to contradict the facts that were presented, just suspicion, innuendo and outright ill-will. If you disagree, show me a fact that does contradict what we now all know to be true. Cherry produced a mountain of stuff. Surely there must be something buried in there somewhere.
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Dave at Work
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What does Gore have to do with this Al?
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cherrypoptart
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I'm almost ready to move on, but I suppose asking to see the document that was just released is a stance that needs to be defended.

There were plenty of lies that made the whole situation suspicious.

One example that stands out is the statement that Obama couldn't even get access to this document even if he wanted to.

Recent events seem to contradict that assertion.

> PSRT

> Obama wouldn't have had access to the long form birth certificate, because Hawaii doesn't release it to people requesting copies of their birth certificates.

If that's the case, then what is this?

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AI Wessex
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See the comment above about Bush stealing the election. Gore withdrew the challenge after the SC ruling and the issue died except with a relatively small number of diehards.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Another example of a liberal impugning every action a conservative does with the worst possible motive.
Are you going to stand up for liberals when G2, Noel or Cherry do this to them?

People shouldn't do this, but both sides do it. I also find it unlikely that if this had happened to Bobby Jindal Conservatives wouldn't be accusing Liberals of being motivated by racism.

I think in Obama's case it's a matter of xenaphobia, which is why I picked on Bobby Jindal and not someone like Alan Keyes.

Barack Hussien Obama just sounds foriegn. So yes I think that, not necessarily KKK type hate, contributed a lot to the birther movement.

[ April 27, 2011, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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cherrypoptart
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My assertion all along is that we needed to have a document signed by the attending physician. Now we have it.

This is victory. Victory for America. Victory for the Constitution. Victory for Trump. Victory for Obama. Victory for transparency. Victory for democracy. Victory for the birthers, and victory for those who have defended Obama. This is a win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if April 27, 2011 goes down in history as a defining moment in our civilization, celebrated with parties and parades, balloons and fireworks for generations to come.

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PSRT
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quote:
He has had the ability to release this paperwork since he was first asked for it by Hillary Clinton in the Primaries, but he has gone out of his way to prevent it's release.
There are two factual statements in there I'd like to challenge:

1) He has had the ability to release this information.

Are you SURE? hawaii does not release the long form birth certificate to people requesting a birth certificate

2) He has gone out of the way to prevent the release of the long form.

What specific actions has he taken to prevent someone from releasing this information to the public that required action rather than passivity on his part?

Finally, a more general challenge: Since there was no rational or legal reason to doubt where Obama was born after he released his official and fully legally sufficient birth certificate, why should Obama have fed the irrationality and idiocy that was the only reason to doubt his place of birth? In fact, it seems like a good idea NOT to feed this sort of irrationality and idiocy, as doing so just creates a demand for MORE unnecessary documentation to be produced, that Obama may or may not have access to, creating a larger and larger drain on the time of him and his staff.

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AI Wessex
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Cherry, you chased everyone around the flagpole relentlessly on this. You still cling to information based on nothing to assert that you were right. Do us all a favor and admit that all of your arguments were based on no real evidence, only innuendo and willful inference. Quit trying to argue that the people who were 100% right all along were somehow responsible for you being dead wrong.

[ April 27, 2011, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
My assertion all along is that we needed to have a document signed by the attending physician. Now we have it.

This is victory. Victory for America. Victory for the Constitution. Victory for Trump. Victory for Obama. Victory for transparency. Victory for democracy. Victory for the birthers, and victory for those who have defended Obama. This is a win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if April 27, 2011 goes down in history as a defining moment in our civilization, celebrated with parties and parades, balloons and fireworks for generations to come.

Well if you're happy I'm happy you're happy.
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cherrypoptart
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This could even be a new national holiday.

There's already a Constitution Day, but this could be...

Transparency Day!

Yay!!!

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Whether you agreed with Gore's position our not, it was a legal challenge to actual events. Here there were no facts to contradict the facts that were presented, just suspicion, innuendo and outright ill-will.

I'm not referring to just the Gore recount legal challenge, but to all of the accusations of election theft made after the court rejected Gore's final request.

There were no facts after the recount that disputed the results of the election. Despite this, many Democrats insisted that the recount was flawed and the election results illegitimate. So much so, that months later a group of newspapers did a faux recount (National Opinion Research Center Recount) that published the results a year after the actual decision.

By PSRT's logic everyone participating in the NORC recount was an idiot, since the NORC recount went far beyond any legal requirements.

How about it PSRT, do you want to go on record as stating that anyone questioning the 2000 Elections' results beyond the December 12th, 2000 court ruling is an Idiot?


quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Are you going to stand up for liberals when G2, Noel or Cherry do this to them?

If I ever see any of these three speciously claim that Liberals are racists with no evidence nor logic, I'll decry it. Assuming that the statement hasn't already gone challenged. I wouldn't have called Al out, if someone had already posted unless I was making a different point. I generally abstain from dog piles.
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PSRT
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Transparency in bowing to people being irrational idiots? Yes. We have that. However, if we did not have irrational idiots, this completely irrelevant waste of time could have been avoided.

The only victory here is for irrational idiocy. It has been justified as a method of practicing politics by this release of documentation.

Hurray for irrational idiots having enormous power in the US!

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Dave at Work
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
He has had the ability to release this paperwork since he was first asked for it by Hillary Clinton in the Primaries, but he has gone out of his way to prevent it's release.
There are two factual statements in there I'd like to challenge:

1) He has had the ability to release this information.

Are you SURE? hawaii does not release the long form birth certificate to people requesting a birth certificate

2) He has gone out of the way to prevent the release of the long form.

What specific actions has he taken to prevent someone from releasing this information to the public that required action rather than passivity on his part?

Finally, a more general challenge: Since there was no rational or legal reason to doubt where Obama was born after he released his official and fully legally sufficient birth certificate, why should Obama have fed the irrationality and idiocy that was the only reason to doubt his place of birth? In fact, it seems like a good idea NOT to feed this sort of irrationality and idiocy, as doing so just creates a demand for MORE unnecessary documentation to be produced, that Obama may or may not have access to, creating a larger and larger drain on the time of him and his staff.

1) Hawaii does indeed provide the long form. I just did quick search and here is a link to one blog which shows a long form birth certificate requested and received in 2010 by an individual born in Hawaii a day after Obama. Pictures of the documents including a receipt are provided in the blog posting.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=285921

2) All he had to do was request it. He could even have designated someone to do so on his behalf if he didn't want to take the time to do so himself. Here is a link to the Hawaii State Department of Health's page describing who can request vital records. One possibility there is "a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;". I don't think that someone not meeting the requirements listed on that page could have gotten it, but a few minutes filling out a form or a few seconds signing it after a staffer filled it out is all it would have taken though he may have had to wait for it to come in the mail. Or he could have hired a lawyer to act as his agent and have that individual apply in person and messenger it to him if he wanted to do it quickly.

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AI Wessex
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You're missing the point. There was no evidence that Obama was not born in Hawaii. If there had been an evidentiary challenge, then maybe all of this might have been justified. But this was a right wing blog based conspiracy complete with ever increasingly shrill accusations of Obama being a liar, a fake and even considering having his critics murdered. Gimme a break. Since there was no truth to the claims, when will there be an apology for sending the nation on a wild goose chase?

If there ever *is* another situation where a Republican candidate is challenged without evidence, I do hope that you will be supportive of the challenge, even if there is absolutely no basis in fact for the charges. After all, it will prove that the system works, right?

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Victory for Trump.
Trump may have had a "victory," but he has now officially lost his (expected) Presidential bid. [Big Grin]

His defining issue, the one that got him all the coverage for the past few weeks, was this Birther issue. Without it, what's he got? Issues? Ideas? Nothing that makes him stand out.

And he can no longer stand on the Birther issue. Sure, he can claim that he was the one who finally forced the President to show the Long Form. But ultimately, it means nothing.

I mean, can you see this as a campaign slogan:

quote:
Vote for Trump. He proved Obama wasn't lying!"
Just doesn't have any zing to it, does it... [Smile]
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Victory for Trump.
Trump may have had a "victory," but he has now officially lost his (expected) Presidential bid. [Big Grin]
Well, hopefully Trump realizes that pretty quickly. I'm not one to comment on appearances, but in the interview he gave a couple of days ago his skin was orange. Seriously, it was orange.

Hmmm, I wonder if Donald Trump has released his birth certificate? Was he actually born on Earth? [Wink]

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PSRT
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quote:
All he had to do was request it.
So in other words, he had to take non-passive action.So he did NOT "go out of his way to prevent," the information coming out.

It is more accurate to say "He did not go out of his way to release information that there was no rational or legal reason for him to release."

I'll take a look at that blog later, but is my understanding that Obama had to go through a special process to get the long form birth certificate. We have numerous statements from state officials that when someone sends in a request for a birth certificate, they get the short form.

The whole thing with the passport is one of the reasons that Obama may now have requested the long form, as state department rules on passports have changed/are changing.

[ April 27, 2011, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Hmmm, I wonder if Donald Trump has released his birth certificate? Was he actually born on Earth? [Wink]
Actually, that was one of the first things he did, although the first certificate he released was not official.

Turns out he was born in Jamaica.*

Of course, that says nothing about where his hair was born... [Smile]

(*Jamaica, New York, that is.)

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AI Wessex
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Not to be a pedant (or a conspiracy enthusiast, or just a jerk, but fair is fair), he only released a poor photocopy of what he purports to be an official birth certificate. If he becomes the Republican candidate, I think he will have to do a lot better.
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philnotfil
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FoxNews.com had the following headline earlier today (emphasis mine):
quote:
White House Releases What it Says Is President Obama's Long-Form Birth Certificate

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Gaoics79
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quote:
When I was in High School, I was taught that a person had to be a natural born citizen to be President. And that a natural born citizen could mean many things. Someone born on US soil is a natural born citizen, but if you were traveling abroad and had a child, you just registered the birth with the US Embassy and that child was also a natural born citizen.

So I have NEVER understood the whole birther thing, if not simply thinly veiled racism, it's completely unveiled idiocy. Even IF Obama had been physically born in Kenya, it wouldn't make any difference as to his eligibility to be President! His mother was American, and his birth was (clearly) registered with Hawaii... case closed.

If you don't understand, then you're either willfully blind or just stupid. The law, as it existed at the time in question, would NOT have permitted Obama to claim natural borne status unless his mother had been a certain age, which she was not.

If he wasn't born in Hawaii, then he wouldn't be a natural born citizen and ergo would not be qualified to be President. Case closed.

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Wayward Son
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Unless, of course, the law was changed retroactively. [Wink]

Fortunately, it appears to be a moot point. [Smile]

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AI Wessex
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Jason, what was the legal statute governing citizenship by birth at the time Obama was born?
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Mormegil
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quote:
If you don't understand, then you're either willfully blind or just stupid.
False dichotomy.

So you're saying my understanding of citizenship is false, that what my AP History teacher taught me was either wrong or was at least not accurate in 1961. In 1961, if you traveled outside the US and gave birth, the baby could not be made a US citizen? Citation, please.

If true, I'll admit to being ignorant of that fact. Stupid? No. Willfully blind? No. Uninterested in the whole thing, and so haven't done a whole lot of research? Yes. Satisfied with the certificate released in 2008? Yeah. Seen substantive evidence that it was forged? No.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
FoxNews.com had the following headline earlier today (emphasis mine):
quote:
White House Releases What it Says Is President Obama's Long-Form Birth Certificate

Hahah, I knew they'd find a way to not rub their loony readership the wrong way.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Mormegil:
When I was in High School, I was taught that a person had to be a natural born citizen to be President. And that a natural born citizen could mean many things. Someone born on US soil is a natural born citizen, but if you were traveling abroad and had a child, you just registered the birth with the US Embassy and that child was also a natural born citizen.

That's the law now. It wasn't the law when he was born. Had he been born in Kenya, he wouldn't be a US citizen because his mother wouldn't have fulfilled *her* residence requirement.

It's moot, because he finally produced the long form birth certificate, but he's still scum.

quote:
Originally posted by Mormegil:
So I have NEVER understood the whole birther thing, if not simply thinly veiled racism, it's completely unveiled idiocy. Even IF Obama had been physically born in Kenya, it wouldn't make any difference as to his eligibility to be President! His mother was American, and his birth was (clearly) registered with Hawaii... case closed.

But the birth certificate, released in 2008, said he was born in Hawaii. Apparently people believed in a vast conspiracy to forge the thing, so they... demanded another document. Why? If one is forged, why not the other?

And of course, that is what they will claim. That the long-form is forged as well. So why demand it in the first place?

Releasing the long-form will do nothing to satisfy the birthers, but it should put a stop to the high-profile Republicans from paying lip service to birther views.

So why did Obama release the thing? I enjoyed watching morons hang themselves with the rope they already had. Didn't the birther nonsense just make all Republicans by association look like idiots? Why spoil that?

Perhaps because Republican leadership was finally going to officially deny any legitimacy to the birthers, and Obama didn't want them to have any "high ground" in the mess they purposely let go on this long.

Or perhaps he really did just get tired of it all and want to talk about other things. Even laughing at stupid people gets old after a few years.


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TommySama
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"he's still scum."

Word.

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TommySama
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Meanwhile...
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TheRallanator
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:

I think in Obama's case it's a matter of xenaphobia, which is why I picked on Bobby Jindal and not someone like Alan Keyes.

Smart move. Alan Keyes is only a good exampe of bigotry for religious and gay issues [Big Grin]
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Mormegil
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Here it is

quote:
Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.

Okay, so I was wrong, it would matter if Obama had been born in Kenya, because by the stupid US law at the time, because Obama's mother was 18 and not 19, she didn't fulfill her residency requirements, which dumbly required 5 years after the age of 14.

Dumb, IMO, but that was the law. And that would mean he not only wasn't a natural born citizen but not a citizen at all. So I was wrong, it would matter, in a technical but who-really-cares kind of way if the claim of Kenya-birth was true... but it isn't.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Okay, so I was wrong, it would matter if Obama had been born in Kenya, because by the stupid US law at the time, because Obama's mother was 18 and not 19, she didn't fulfill her residency requirements, which dumbly required 5 years after the age of 14.

Dumb, IMO, but that was the law. And that would mean he not only wasn't a natural born citizen but not a citizen at all. So I was wrong, it would matter, in a technical but who-really-cares kind of way if the claim of Kenya-birth was true... but it isn't.

Bingo. Apologies for the willfully blind versus stupid comment. But to be fair, this legal issue has been front and centre right from the beginning. For people to be seriously claiming, at this stage in the game, that the place of his birth was legally irrelevant, is infuriating.

If he was not born on U.S. soil, he was not legally entitled to be president.

People like Tom pooh pooh this to their heart's content, yet no one has seriously suggested that Arnold Schwarzenegger or Madelaine Albright could ever be President, so clearly this mere "technicality" can't just be dismissed.

I never saw the birther claims as being remotely stupid or "crazy". What they claimed was plausible enough and required absolutely no conspiracy theory.

The release of the long form birth certificate pretty much clears things up for me, unless you accept Daruma's assertion that it's an obvious fake, which of course I am completely unqualified to judge.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
People like Tom pooh pooh this to their heart's content, yet no one has seriously suggested that Arnold Schwarzenegger or Madelaine Albright could ever be President, so clearly this mere "technicality" can't just be dismissed.
I pooh-pooh this because the intent of the Founders was to prevent foreign allegiances. Someone who is briefly born in France but is then, say, abducted by Americans and raised his entire life in America is not going to turn the country over to the French. I do think there is a distinction to be made between people who manage to reach adulthood in another country before immigrating here and people who from infancy have lived in this country.
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AI Wessex
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Jason, you do agree that the birther claims were not supported by any actual evidence, don't you? In that case, and you being a lawyer, how could those claims be considered "plausible"?
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