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Author Topic: An insight into Messianic Judaism
ken_in_sc
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This posting seems to have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism as I know it. My stepson is a Messianic Rabbi. He was educated in a Presbyterian seminary. He did an internship with a Messianic Jewish congregation in Philadelphia, which at that time was supported by the Presbyterian Church USA. During that time he met his wife who was and is a Messianic Jew. He converted and was ordained as a rabbi. Messianic Jews are Jews who live their lives as traditional Jews, more or less keeping kosher and going to synagog, but accept Jesus as the Messiah. BTW, Messianic Jews are discriminated against in Israel.
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Chael
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Someone (I think it was Pete) said on another thread that the one qualification for being a Christian in his eyes was believing in Christ.

I expect that's why Messianic Judaisim bothers most Jews. There are truth-in-advertising issues.

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
Someone (I think it was Pete) said on another thread that the one qualification for being a Christian in his eyes was believing in Christ.
I think that was me--and Pete disagreed. He said one has to be a theist to be a real Christian.
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Chael
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A cursory search indicated that it was actually Wayward Son. But, that question has been asked on more than one thread, as one might expect.

The glories of fallible memory are many and varied.

On the bright side, it doesn't matter much who said it, except to the people who will promptly thwap me upside the head for misquoting them (and, of course, to me--my poor head!). [Wink]

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
A cursory search indicated that it was actually Wayward Son.
Ah, good then. Because your construction was slightly different from my response to Pete. Which was triggering my head-thwapping urge...

[Wink]

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TommySama
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"On the bright side, it doesn't matter much who said it, except to the people who will promptly thwap me upside the head for misquoting them (and, of course, to me--my poor head!)."

The content is less important than the process.

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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
Ah, good then. Because your construction was slightly different from my response to Pete. Which was triggering my head-thwapping urge...

[Wink]

If I'd been meaning to quote you, I'd understand the urge. [Wink]

[ September 03, 2011, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Chael ]

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RickyB
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"This posting seems to have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism as I know it. "

Sorry for the confusion. Not talking about that kind of "Messianic Judaism" - that is, a form of Judaism that incorporates belief in Jesus as messiah. Talking about regular orthodox Judaism that is obsessed with the coming of the messiah as Jews believe in him.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
quote:
Someone (I think it was Pete) said on another thread that the one qualification for being a Christian in his eyes was believing in Christ.
I think that was me--and Pete disagreed. He said one has to be a theist to be a real Christian.
No, sp, I'm certain that I never said anything about being a "real" Christian.

I've spoken about cultural Christians and religious Christians. It seems obvious to me that you have to be religious, and to believe in Christ, to be a religious Christian. And that neither is necessary to being a Cultural Christian.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
The fact that the ideology allows for racially disparate individuals to become "full-souled humans"

Bzzt! Thanks for playing, but I'm calling bulls***. There's nothing in that quote that implies non-Jews are not full souled humans. A difference in type does not equate to a difference in degree.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
Identifying one's culture as comprised of "the chosen people" is...well, it is what it is, isn't it?

Yes, it is what it is. What it isn't is what you seem to think it is.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"This posting seems to have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism as I know it. "

Sorry for the confusion. Not talking about that kind of "Messianic Judaism" - that is, a form of Judaism that incorporates belief in Jesus as messiah. Talking about regular orthodox Judaism that is obsessed with the coming of the messiah as Jews believe in him.

You're misdefining it. It's a form of Christianity that uses Jewish terminology as a means of deceiving under-educated Jews into accepting Christianity.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
This posting seems to have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism as I know it. My stepson is a Messianic Rabbi. He was educated in a Presbyterian seminary. He did an internship with a Messianic Jewish congregation in Philadelphia, which at that time was supported by the Presbyterian Church USA. During that time he met his wife who was and is a Messianic Jew. He converted and was ordained as a rabbi. Messianic Jews are Jews who live their lives as traditional Jews, more or less keeping kosher and going to synagog, but accept Jesus as the Messiah. BTW, Messianic Jews are discriminated against in Israel.

As they should be. Those few of them who are actually Jewish are idolators, and the city of Ir Ovot is probably the first real עיר הנדחת we've ever seen. I look forward to the day when the laws regarding such a place are implemented.*

Most of them, however, are not even Jewish. The idea of their "conversions" actually making someone Jewish is just laughable. And the idea of any of them being "rabbis" is way beyond that, into the realm of bone stupid.
_______________________
*Deuteronomy 13:13-19

[ September 04, 2011, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: starLisa ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
Messianic Jews are Jews who live their lives as traditional Jews, more or less keeping kosher and going to synagog, but accept Jesus as the Messiah.

No, it's the Netzarim who are traditional Jews who see Jesus as the Messiah. Don't know how Lisa particularly views the Netzarim, but I do know some other Jews who make comments as bloodthirsty as Lisa's (re looking forward to murdering Christians under the pretext that we're "idolators." [Roll Eyes] ) but don't view the Netzarim as idolators, since they don't see Jesus as the son of God, but merely the Messiah.


quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
BTW, Messianic Jews are discriminated against in Israel.

As they should be. Those few of them who are actually Jewish are idolators, and the city of Ir Ovot is probably the first real עיר הנדחת we've ever seen. I look forward to the day when the laws regarding such a place are implemented.*
_______________________
*Deuteronomy 13:13-19

back when your neighbors were passing their kids through the fire to Moloch and Bael, Deuteronomy 13:13-19 made sense. Would you kill the BuJus as well, or just the Christian Jews?

Doesn't Rabbi simply signify teacher?

Correct me if I'm wrong -- AFAIK the Christian gospels are the earliest known writings to contain the word "rabbi." [Big Grin] Otherwise we don't see the term appear until the Mishna, circa 200 AD.

[ September 04, 2011, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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Also, Lisa, the Israelis that would enforce the fundy interpretation of those laws, what do you think they would do to you?
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RickyB
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"You're misdefining it. It's a form of Christianity that uses Jewish terminology as a means of deceiving under-educated Jews into accepting Christianity."

I can actually go with this. Either way it's a form of theistic masturbation. [Smile]

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Pete at Home
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Bah. Without the Christians to whine about, you Jews would go back to murdering each other while your real enemies burnt your houses down. You know, like you did between 50 BC through 200 AD, when y'all finally decided that Christians weren't Jews? [Razz] Our benign boogeyman is the only thing that's given you any sort of unity since 187 AD.

[ September 05, 2011, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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I mean seriously, what else could get Ricky agreeing with Lisa? [Big Grin]
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ken_in_sc
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Lisa, my stepson was required to convert because his mother was not Jewish. However his father was. He has a fairly common Jewish name. He volunteered for the internship because he was interested in Judaism. I was at his ordination ceremony and there were over a thousand people in the auditorium, and the overwhelming majority were of obvious Jewish heritage. His wife's family is Sephardi. They trace their family history back at least to 1492 when the Jews were expelled from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. By way of the Ottoman Empire, they eventually ended up in Canada. Jewish all the way.

Lisa, my stepson's family lifestyle does not use just Jewish terminology, it is thoroughly Jewish. If you attended one of his congregation's Shabats, the only clue you would have of something different would be the presence of an extra scroll next to the Torah. Messianic Jews are sort of a secret minority with the Jewish Community.

BTW, how do you feel about the surviving Samaritans who accept the Torah as their Holy Scriptures? If you have discussed this before, I am sorry. I did not see it.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Also, Lisa, the Israelis that would enforce the fundy interpretation of those laws, what do you think they would do to you?

Nothing, she doesn't live in Israel.

[ September 05, 2011, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"This posting seems to have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism as I know it. "

Sorry for the confusion. Not talking about that kind of "Messianic Judaism" - that is, a form of Judaism that incorporates belief in Jesus as messiah. Talking about regular orthodox Judaism that is obsessed with the coming of the messiah as Jews believe in him.

You're misdefining it. It's a form of Christianity that uses Jewish terminology as a means of deceiving under-educated Jews into accepting Christianity.
Actually some mainstream Christians become messianic Jews and essentially take the law on. This runs counter to our own scriptures, but there you have it.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
Lisa, my stepson was required to convert because his mother was not Jewish. However his father was.

Well, that explains a lot. The children of intermarriage often wind up distorting Judaism.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
He has a fairly common Jewish name.

So does Whoopie Goldberg. So did Alfred Rosenberg.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
He volunteered for the internship because he was interested in Judaism.

No, sir. He was interested in something, but whatever he may have called it, it was not and is not Judaism.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
I was at his ordination ceremony and there were over a thousand people in the auditorium, and the overwhelming majority were of obvious Jewish heritage.

Whoa. Really? So I'm guessing... what? Big noses? "Obvious Jewish heritage". That's a hoot.

Hey, here are a list of celebs. Tell me which ones are Jewish and which ones aren't:

Jennifer Connelly
Adam Goldberg
Scarlett Johanssen
Winona (Horowitz) Ryder
Rosanna Arquette
Lisa Bonet
Helen Slater

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
His wife's family is Sephardi. They trace their family history back at least to 1492 when the Jews were expelled from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. By way of the Ottoman Empire, they eventually ended up in Canada. Jewish all the way.

How the mighty have fallen. My family probably left at the same time.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
Lisa, my stepson's family lifestyle does not use just Jewish terminology, it is thoroughly Jewish.

No, sir, it is not. There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god. There is nothing Jewish about espousing non-Jewish concepts such as original sin and a need for salvation.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
If you attended one of his congregation's Shabats, the only clue you would have of something different would be the presence of an extra scroll next to the Torah.

I highly doubt that. But since I don't go to church services, it'd never happen.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
Messianic Jews are sort of a secret minority with the Jewish Community.

So they like to claim. But they aren't a secret. They're a horrible crime.

quote:
Originally posted by ken_in_sc:
BTW, how do you feel about the surviving Samaritans who accept the Torah as their Holy Scriptures? If you have discussed this before, I am sorry. I did not see it.

How do I feel about them? Well, first, you have to understand the origin of the Samaritans. Read II Kings 17:24-41.

So they were never actually sincere converts. And when we returned from Babylon, they became staunch enemies of ours.

They're an ancient people, you know. The Kutim are mentioned in Akkadian inscriptions. They're as old as we are as a people. But their deception (and sometimes self-deception) about being actual descendents of our nation is ridiculous.

I'm glad they're dying out. I don't have any real problem with them, since they're monotheists, but ours is a religion of truth, and they are a lie. So I'm not all that fond of them. I wouldn't kick them out of Israel (if I had the power to make such decisions), and I'd be happy if any of them decided to convert to Judaism, as long as they were sincere.

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Pete at Home
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Lisa, why do you conflate sin with crime? If you believe that something is against God's law, is that not sufficient authority for you?
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god.
Fully human, fully God, if you're going to trash our dogma can't you make a little effort to understand it?
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Jennifer Connelly
Adam Goldberg
Scarlett Johanssen
Winona (Horowitz) Ryder
Rosanna Arquette
Lisa Bonet
Helen Slater

But Lenny Kravitz doesn't make the list because his mother was a gentile, right?
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Jennifer Connelly
Adam Goldberg
Scarlett Johanssen
Winona (Horowitz) Ryder
Rosanna Arquette
Lisa Bonet
Helen Slater

But Lenny Kravitz doesn't make the list because his mother was a gentile, right?
Correct. But Lenny and Lisa's daughter is Jewish.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god.
Fully human, fully God, if you're going to trash our dogma can't you make a little effort to understand it?
Look, I can watch Doctor Who and not have any problem with the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Because it's science fiction. Fantasy. Not real. But when people start saying things that are inherently contradictory, suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

I don't care if you think your god is fully divine. It's the fully human that makes it idolatry by Jewish standards.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Jennifer Connelly
Adam Goldberg
Scarlett Johanssen
Winona (Horowitz) Ryder
Rosanna Arquette
Lisa Bonet
Helen Slater

But Lenny Kravitz doesn't make the list because his mother was a gentile, right?
Correct. But Lenny and Lisa's daughter is Jewish.
And btw:

Jennifer Connelly - Jewish
Adam Goldberg - not Jewish
Scarlett Johanssen - Jewish
Winona (Horowitz) Ryder - not Jewish
Rosanna Arquette - Jewish
Lisa Bonet - Jewish
Helen Slater - Jewish

So let's have no more ridiculous talk about "obvious Jewish heritage", mmmkay?

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god.
Fully human, fully God, if you're going to trash our dogma can't you make a little effort to understand it?
Look, I can watch Doctor Who and not have any problem with the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Because it's science fiction. Fantasy. Not real. But when people start saying things that are inherently contradictory, suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

I don't care if you think your god is fully divine. It's the fully human that makes it idolatry by Jewish standards.

Plus, you know, since the Messiah has to be descended patrinlineally from David, even if JC existed, and everything else you think about him is accurate, he couldn't possibly be the Messiah.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Plus, you know, since the Messiah has to be descended patrinlineally from David, even if JC existed, and everything else you think about him is accurate, he couldn't possibly be the Messiah.
Since when do Ortho-fundies reject the concept of patrilineal adoption, other than among the Cohanim?

Joseph was a patrimonial descendant of David, and essentially accepted Jesus as his son. Jesus and Joseph were not Cohanim, so there's no issue with adoption. What have I missed?

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
Bzzt! Thanks for playing, but I'm calling bulls***. There's nothing in that quote that implies non-Jews are not full souled humans. A difference in type does not equate to a difference in degree.
Heh.

You don't seem to have understood what was said very well...the citation refers explicitly to a difference in degree.

See that's what it means when someone says the words "the difference...is greater and deeper than..."

Difference in degree.

But you can keep playing, you just lose comprehension points here. [Wink]
quote:
Yes, it is what it is. What it isn't is what you seem to think it is.
Don't think I actually said what I think it is. That's the point of the "is what it is" cliche--something is too obvious to need explanation...

But since your bigotry seems to found itself in self-referential logic (still worshiping a primitive fire god after all these years?) you might not see that you are what you are...

Even though advocating for discrimination based on religious belief is what it is, as well.

You should lighten up some. God can probably punish the wicked on his own if he does such things, and I doubt he chooses to do so through the screed of paranoid harridans, neh?

[ September 06, 2011, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god.
Fully human, fully God, if you're going to trash our dogma can't you make a little effort to understand it?
Look, I can watch Doctor Who and not have any problem with the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Because it's science fiction. Fantasy. Not real. But when people start saying things that are inherently contradictory, suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

I don't care if you think your god is fully divine. It's the fully human that makes it idolatry by Jewish standards.

As long as you understand it's not worshipping a man as God, it's worshiping a man who is God.

Do we agree Messianic Judaism is not Judasim, but a form of Christianity using Jewish customs?

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Plus, you know, since the Messiah has to be descended patrinlineally from David, even if JC existed, and everything else you think about him is accurate, he couldn't possibly be the Messiah.
Since when do Ortho-fundies reject the concept of patrilineal adoption, other than among the Cohanim?
Screw you. Judaism has always used matrilineal descent to determine if you're Jewish, and patrilineal descent to determine your tribe. But that's a blood relationship. Adoption doesn't change your tribe. If you aren't patrilineally descended from Judah, you aren't from the tribe of Judah. If you aren't patrilineally descended from David, you aren't from the house of David.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Joseph was a patrimonial descendant of David, and essentially accepted Jesus as his son. Jesus and Joseph were not Cohanim, so there's no issue with adoption. What have I missed?

There's no such thing as adoption in that sense. You can adopt a child, but that doesn't change the child's tribe. If JC was not Joseph's son, Joseph's lineage is irrelevant.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
There is nothing Jewish about worshipping a man as a god.
Fully human, fully God, if you're going to trash our dogma can't you make a little effort to understand it?
Look, I can watch Doctor Who and not have any problem with the TARDIS being bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Because it's science fiction. Fantasy. Not real. But when people start saying things that are inherently contradictory, suspension of disbelief goes out the window.

I don't care if you think your god is fully divine. It's the fully human that makes it idolatry by Jewish standards.

As long as you understand it's not worshipping a man as God, it's worshiping a man who is God.
I understand that's the claim. But the Bible says "God is not a man".

quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Do we agree Messianic Judaism is not Judasim, but a form of Christianity using Jewish customs?

Absolutely.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Plus, you know, since the Messiah has to be descended patrinlineally from David, even if JC existed, and everything else you think about him is accurate, he couldn't possibly be the Messiah.
Since when do Ortho-fundies reject the concept of patrilineal adoption, other than among the Cohanim?
Screw you.
That's proposition is as bizarre as it is irrelevant, since I'm married and you're lesbian, neh? [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Judaism has always used matrilineal descent to determine if you're Jewish, and patrilineal descent to determine your tribe. But that's a blood relationship. Adoption doesn't change your tribe. ... You can adopt a child, but that doesn't change the child's tribe.
Thank you, Lisa; I didn't realize it worked that way.

But (and please remember my record for non-rhetorical questions with you) is Tribal identification completely on point with regard to Patrilineal Genealogy?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jewish Genealogy treat Ruth's child through Boaz as if the kid were patrilineally through Ruth's first husband? Or is that only for sake of inheritance?

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Plus, you know, since the Messiah has to be descended patrinlineally from David, even if JC existed, and everything else you think about him is accurate, he couldn't possibly be the Messiah.
Since when do Ortho-fundies reject the concept of patrilineal adoption, other than among the Cohanim?
Screw you.
That's proposition is as bizarre as it is irrelevant, since I'm married and you're lesbian, neh? [Roll Eyes]
It's a colloquialism. It means go screw yourself. I thought English was your mother tongue. Obviously I was mistaken. But you can take that Ortho-fundies comment, print it out, fold it so that it's all corners, and shove it.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Judaism has always used matrilineal descent to determine if you're Jewish, and patrilineal descent to determine your tribe. But that's a blood relationship. Adoption doesn't change your tribe. ... You can adopt a child, but that doesn't change the child's tribe.
Thank you, Lisa; I didn't realize it worked that way.

But (and please remember my record for non-rhetorical questions with you) is Tribal identification completely on point with regard to Patrilineal Genealogy?

It is.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jewish Genealogy treat Ruth's child through Boaz as if the kid were patrilineally through Ruth's first husband? Or is that only for sake of inheritance?

Not at all. First of all, it wasn't levirite marriage, because Boaz wasn't Mahlon's brother. It was redemption of Mahlon's property so that it could stay within the family. And in fact, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but even your own books (Matthew and Luke) list Obed as the son of Boaz. As do we.

But had he been Mahlon's brother, and had this been a case of levirite marriage, it would have been irrelevant to your question/argument, since two (full) brothers are always from the same tribe.

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RickyB
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If the child is a findling whose birth tribe is unknown, wouldn't he be of the tribe of hsi adoptive father? [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
But you can take that Ortho-fundies comment, print it out, fold it so that it's all corners, and shove it.

Much better.

quote:
It's a colloquialism. It means go screw yourself. I thought English was your mother tongue. Obviously I was mistaken.
Ah, I keep thinking that you're an international, and forget that American is your mother tongue, so dry humor is lost on you. Would my comeback have been more clear if I'd responded, instead, "no thank you, I gave up Lesbians for Lent" ? Or do I need a vaudville drum roll after the punchline for you to not take it seriously?

quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jewish Genealogy treat Ruth's child through Boaz as if the kid were patrilineally through Ruth's first husband? Or is that only for sake of inheritance?

Not at all. First of all, it wasn't levirite marriage, because Boaz wasn't Mahlon's brother.

Then why did Boaz hold off, saying that there was a closer relative?

quote:
It was redemption of Mahlon's property so that it could stay within the family. And in fact, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but even your own books (Matthew and Luke) list Obed as the son of Boaz. As do we.
You don't have to tell me about my own books, but thank you for telling me about yours. I'm delighted to see that you're as informative while hostile as when polite. I can see why Ricky enjoys baiting you.

[ September 06, 2011, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
If the child is a findling whose birth tribe is unknown, wouldn't he be of the tribe of hsi adoptive father? [Smile]

Depends where he's found. There are laws regarding legal presumption (chazaka). I'm not well versed in all the details, but if we're talking about a time back when the tribes lived separately, then he might be considered to be of the tribe where he was found. More likely, he'd have a status of shtuki or assufi, which are types of safek mamzer (a category in which the person might be a mamzer, but it isn't certain). Probably assufi.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
But you can take that Ortho-fundies comment, print it out, fold it so that it's all corners, and shove it.

Much better.
So glad you approve.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
It's a colloquialism. It means go screw yourself. I thought English was your mother tongue. Obviously I was mistaken.
Ah, I keep thinking that you're an international, and forget that American is your mother tongue, so dry humor is lost on you. Would my comeback have been more clear if I'd responded, instead, "no thank you, I gave up Lesbians for Lent" ? Or do I need a vaudville drum roll after the punchline for you to not take it seriously?
I like using InstantRimshot.com.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jewish Genealogy treat Ruth's child through Boaz as if the kid were patrilineally through Ruth's first husband? Or is that only for sake of inheritance?

Not at all. First of all, it wasn't levirite marriage, because Boaz wasn't Mahlon's brother.

Then why did Boaz hold off, saying that there was a closer relative?
You do realize that whoever married her got all of Mahlon's property, right? Boaz knew he didn't have the first claim to it. When Ploni refused (because he didn't want to marry a Moabitess convert, which was part and parcel of the deal), it was Boaz's turn. There are rabbinic opinions that Ploni was actually Boaz's father Salmon.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
It was redemption of Mahlon's property so that it could stay within the family. And in fact, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but even your own books (Matthew and Luke) list Obed as the son of Boaz. As do we.
You don't have to tell me about my own books, but thank you for telling me about yours. I'm delighted to see that you're as informative while hostile as when polite. I can see why Ricky enjoys baiting you.
Meh.
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