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Author Topic: Bombing in Norway
threads
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quote:
Originally posted by MxPickle:
Edited to add; FYI II, I'm an atheist and a liberal, but I'm also a human being and a father and "sometimes", more rarely than we use it but oftener than Norway, the death penalty is necessary.

Why do you think that it's necessary? Deterrence isn't a good answer.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
There are people that are irredeemable...
Why are you so certain that this is true?
According to the Wikipedia entry, psychopaths seem to be incurable.
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TheDeamon
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quote:
Originally posted by threads:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Why are you so certain that this is true?

According to the Wikipedia entry, psychopaths seem to be incurable.
Well, in that case they assign him a prison term as well as remanding him over to the custody of a mental institution for "treatment" where he will remain until "cured," which should happen sometime around never.

But then, I support the death penalty, and find the idea of cutting his life short to be preferable to his being a ward of the state for the next 50-ish years.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by threads:
quote:
Originally posted by MxPickle:
Edited to add; FYI II, I'm an atheist and a liberal, but I'm also a human being and a father and "sometimes", more rarely than we use it but oftener than Norway, the death penalty is necessary.

Why do you think that it's necessary? Deterrence isn't a good answer.

How about recidivism?
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threads
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Do you mean in prison? We can always replace the death penalty with life sentences (I have problems with most life sentences as well but that's another issue).
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Pete at Home
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No, I mean that the recidivism rate for executed criminals is 0%.

Threads, more people get murdered in US prisons than get put to death. Not to mention escapes, commutations because of prison crowding, etc. You can't get around the fact that recidivism is a viable argument for the death penalty.

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vulture
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
No, I mean that the recidivism rate for executed criminals is 0%.

And the number of miscarriages of justice corrected in the case of executed non-criminals is also 0%.


quote:

Threads, more people get murdered in US prisons than get put to death. Not to mention escapes, commutations because of prison crowding, etc.

The fact that US prisons are hopelessly barbaric and the the US population as a whole are happy with the level of violence and rape between inmates isn't much of an argument for anything, except a need to improve prison conditions in America and to adequately control what people get up to in prison.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
No, I mean that the recidivism rate for executed criminals is 0%.

And the number of miscarriages of justice corrected in the case of executed non-criminals is also 0%.
OK, why don't you give me some names of innpcent persons executed in the USA since 1980.

You think it's lower than the number of innocent persons who have been murdered in US prisons?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture:
The fact that US prisons are hopelessly barbaric and the the US population as a whole are happy with the level of violence and rape between inmates isn't much of an argument for anything, except a need to improve prison conditions in America and to adequately control what people get up to in prison.

It certainly is an argument and it shows the utter foolishness of asserting that we should just send our most vicious murderers to prison rather than executing them.

I say we fix the focking prison system before we even think about eliminating the death penalty.

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threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Threads, more people get murdered in US prisons than get put to death. Not to mention escapes, commutations because of prison crowding, etc. You can't get around the fact that recidivism is a viable argument for the death penalty.

There is always solitary confinement ("Special Housing Unit", SHU). Also, if would-be death row inmates were instead given a life sentence and segregated from the rest of the inmates then, even if they murder each other from time to time, less would die than if they were all put to death. Guard deaths are a concern here though. I don't know how common they are in SHU.

Escapes are a concern.

Commutations shouldn't be given to the worst offenders in the case of prison crowding.

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TheDeamon
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One of the biggest ironies about the "miscarriage of justice" and the death penalty is this:

A prisoner on death row is much safer than a prisoner in the general prison population. People on death row tend to have their own cells, and their interactions with other prisoners are kept to a minimum. Generally speaking, they're almost in solitary confinement, only considerably better living conditions than solitary offers.

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Pete at Home
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They also are more likely to receive a fair trial. American juries are less likely to take seriously the whole innocent until proven guilty thing when they are "only" sending a man to rot in a hole for the rest of his life.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
This is new fun. An agnostic accusing an atheist of being a Christian. Dear Aris, you're closer to being a Christian than MXP. Pay attention. MXP is an old friend here.
I didn't accuse MXP of being a Christian -- I was indirectly accusing MXP of thinking that the Christian redemption rhetoric applies to all opponents of the death penalty, and I was accusing Tom of falling into the trap of debating a constructed strawman that doesn't apply to the vast majority of death-penalty opponents.

quote:
Why do you think that it's "insulting" to believe that Norway seeks to rehabilitate the worst criminals?
MxPickle mockingly refers to an opinion of Norwegians that he openly treats as obviously Pollyannish-stupid -- and he doesn't bother to actually show us that Norwegians *do* have that opinion, before he attributes it to them.

If I were to say "According to Americans, the Flintstones are a documentary!" or "According to Americans, the Smurfs are real!", I think you'd find those statements insulting to Americans too.

quote:
quote:
The abolition of the death penalty has nothing to do with people being redeemable or not.
If you can be more specific, while being less bitchy, I'd love to hear you elaborate.
What do you mean? Go to any site listing arguments against the death penalty, e.g. http://www.balancedpolitics.org/death_penalty.htm or http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty
or any other site you want that's not a constructed strawman.

I'd be surprised if you found the possibility of "redemption" or "rehabilitation" anywhere in the reasons against death penalty listed. I'd be *highly* surprised if you found it in a top 10 of reasons.

But strawmen-constructors need to believe that the main reason we oppose death penalty is we believe in some rehabilitation or redemption of the murderers.

quote:
Aris, unless you have any serious causal explanation as to how the death penalty causes additional murdered victims.
Having society tell you that it's okay and proper to kill people if they deserve to die, can't you see *any* way in which that would lead to more murdered victims?
Here's a hint. Imagine there's someone who's tempted to commit a murder against someone who wronged them grievously. Perhaps a cheating spouse.
You get the chance to fly to their shoulder and whisper one of two things in their ear:
a) "It's okay to kill people who deserve it."
b) "Don't kill people, even those who you believe deserve it."

Which sentence belongs to the shoulder-angel, and which sentence belongs to the shoulder-devil?

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AI Wessex
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[Pete:] "OK, why don't you give me some names of innpcent persons executed in the USA since 1980."

Potential cases in Texas, though I don't know the dates:

Frank Basil McFarland
Troy Farris
Jerry Lee Hogue
David Stoker
Richard Wayne Jones
Willie Williams and Joseph Nichols
James Lee Beathard
Gary Graham
David Wayne Spence

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
[Pete:] "OK, why don't you give me some names of innpcent persons executed in the USA since 1980."

Potential cases in Texas, though I don't know the dates:

Frank Basil McFarland
Troy Farris
Jerry Lee Hogue
David Stoker
Richard Wayne Jones
Willie Williams and Joseph Nichols
James Lee Beathard
Gary Graham
David Wayne Spence

Ah yes, Texas has short-circuited the criminal review process; death penalty cases don't even get reviewed by the state supreme Court AND the governor doesn't even have the power to pardon. Virginia was on the way to impementing that as well. [Mad] IMO that's an unconstitutional failure of due process, particularly for a Death Penalty case. Surprised no one's taken that to SCOTUS on that basis.
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Pete at Home
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AFAIK maximum sentence this fiend can receive in Norway is 21 years.

One possible way around that, would be to charge him internationally, like Mladic. This is clearly a very dangerous man, and he should not be at large.

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RickyB
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Anyone notice his fondness for Israel? He specifically commended Israel for not giving its Palestinian subject civil rights. Pity Lisa isn't into men, or we'd have a heckuva match.
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TomDavidson
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Bad form, Ricky.
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Greg Davidson
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Interesting that this thread has veered into Norwegian sentencing policies rather than an examination of the person responsible for the terrorist action.

First, here are a few quotes from the Anders manifesto, followed by my analysis:

quote:
We, the European Revolutionary Conservatives know very well that it will take many years, even decades before we successfully manage to consolidate to a degree where we can seize political and military power in the first Western European country. In the US, the Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming. The creation of similar conservative organizations, even the creation of revolutionary conservative movements ... is about to materialize. The cultural Marxists are losing their momentum to our advantage.
quote:
The outcome of the Aboriginal and Native American struggle established a crystal clear precedence which dictates that the indigenous peoples of a specific territory have undisputed exclusive rights in their own lands. If this is the case for Aborigines in Australia and Native Americans in the US, shouldn’t that be the case for Europeans in Europe as well? The fact that the cultural Marxists, anti-nationalist humanists and globalists outright refuse us the same basic human rights prove without a doubt that THEY are in fact the racists, that they are the fascists and Nazis of our time.
The guy is an extremist (proven even more solidly by his actions than by his writings). He's using extremist rhetoric (in this case philosophically aligned with some extreme right wing attitudes in the United States), but I don't see causality going in the other direction. The relationship between right wing political beliefs and his actions are as tenuous as the relationship between the Koran and the acts of Islamic terrorists. In each case we see the acts of one evil, crazy individual out of tens of millions who share a very general association. (in other words, his association with extreme right wing rhetoric does not justify any adverse conclusions about right wing politics at all, and I can't see the basis for causality between American right-wing media and web sites and his actions).

I'll also acknowledge that since the shooting of Rep. Giffords there have not been subsequent acts of political violence in the United States, at least that I have heard about. That's good news, and I had previously expressed a concern that the rhetoric in the right wing media might similarly influence already crazy people to further violent acts. I am glad to be wrong so far.

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RickyB
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I've read he lifted most of his manifesto from the Unabomber.

Tom - perhaps, but true nonetheless. [Smile]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
Interesting that this thread has veered into Norwegian sentencing policies rather than an examination of the person responsible for the terrorist action.

First, here are a few quotes from the Anders manifesto, followed by my analysis:

quote:
We, the European Revolutionary Conservatives know very well that it will take many years, even decades before we successfully manage to consolidate to a degree where we can seize political and military power in the first Western European country. In the US, the Tea party movement is one of the first physical, political manifestations which indicate that there is a great storm coming. The creation of similar conservative organizations, even the creation of revolutionary conservative movements ... is about to materialize. The cultural Marxists are losing their momentum to our advantage.
quote:
The outcome of the Aboriginal and Native American struggle established a crystal clear precedence which dictates that the indigenous peoples of a specific territory have undisputed exclusive rights in their own lands. If this is the case for Aborigines in Australia and Native Americans in the US, shouldn’t that be the case for Europeans in Europe as well? The fact that the cultural Marxists, anti-nationalist humanists and globalists outright refuse us the same basic human rights prove without a doubt that THEY are in fact the racists, that they are the fascists and Nazis of our time.
The guy is an extremist (proven even more solidly by his actions than by his writings). He's using extremist rhetoric (in this case philosophically aligned with some extreme right wing attitudes in the United States), but I don't see causality going in the other direction. The relationship between right wing political beliefs and his actions are as tenuous as the relationship between the Koran and the acts of Islamic terrorists. In each case we see the acts of one evil, crazy individual out of tens of millions who share a very general association. (in other words, his association with extreme right wing rhetoric does not justify any adverse conclusions about right wing politics at all, and I can't see the basis for causality between American right-wing media and web sites and his actions).

Indeed. Indeed, from my reading, at least two right-wing anti-immigrant groups refused to accept him as a member, and one actually refused to friend him on facebook, because they thought he was a wack job.

What that says to me that even the typical right-wing anti-immigrant groups in Norway are more conscientious than ours.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
AFAIK maximum sentence this fiend can receive in Norway is 21 years.

That's what I've read also. It will be interesting to see the reactions when the realization hits that this man will be free at the age of 53 or so.

In the US the debate is usually between 'Life in Prison' vs the 'Death penalty'. And Life in Prison judgements are over 50 times more likely than a Death Penalty, despite the rhetoric.

However, in the US Life in Prison is generally a very long sentence. A 21 year sentence doesn't seem nearly long enough for a case of this nature.

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Viking_Longship
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Friday I was listening to American Family Radio as I was channel surfing (I have a long commute and not much to listen to) and the host of their news commentary as arguing that this was a result of the Islamification of Europe, by 2050 Europe will be 30% Muslim, Europe is probably going to be under Shar'ia ect ect..

You think that guys is going to be on tomorrow saying "oops, I was making the murderers case?"

Not likely...

[ July 24, 2011, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Friday I was listening to American Family Radio as I was channel surfing (I have a long commute and not much to listen to) and the host of their news commentary as arguing that this was a result of the Islamification of Europe, by 2050 Europe will be 30% Muslim, Europe is probably going to be under Shar'ia ect ect..

You think that guys is going to be on tomorrow saying "oops, I was making the murderers case?"

Not likely...

Why should they? Anyone who lumps them with this terrorist is just coffin dancing.
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Aris Katsaris
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Yeah, they can only be lumped in together if you also lump together those people who in the 1930s talked **** against the Jews with those people who actually took violent action against Jews and Jew-sympathisers.

Replace Jews with Muslims, and the fear of Jewish economic/cultural control of Europe with the fear of Islamification.

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Viking_Longship
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Pete

Not lumping him in with the terrorist. I'm saying he accused the wrong people and was using the same arguments that the terrorist was making.

If it HAD been Islamists we'd be hearing about the evil rabble rousing Imams and their hateful rhetoric.

If it's good for the goose...

(And if you're taking the religous conservative's side reflexivly remember American Family doesn't like Mormons any more than those Imams do.)

[ July 24, 2011, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Yeah, they can only be lumped in together if you also lump together those people who in the 1930s talked **** against the Jews with those people who actually took violent action against Jews and Jew-sympathisers.

Coffin-dancing, Aris. These groups specifically excluded the terrorist because he seemed like a threat.

Groups that want to restrict immigration from Muslim countries should not be lumped with this terrorist act, any more than folks that celebrate Kwanzaa should be lumped with the kidnapping of Patty Hearst.

The stuff said in the 1930s against the Jews was demonstrably false.

OTOH, there's valid reason for concern in Europe for what Muslims will do; look at Bethlehem, Lebanon, northern nigeria, and other places where Christians held a majority 75 years ago but were outstripped by Muslims. It's not a pretty picture, and you don't have to be a terrorist to consider it a cause for concern. Cause for concern doesn't mean a cause for committing murder.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
(And if you're taking the religous conservative's side reflexivly remember American Family doesn't like Mormons any more than those Imams do.)

Viking, does your experience here suggest to you that I only take the side of my friends and allies in an argument over facts and reasoning?

I wouldn't take American Family's word for anything. But that doesn't mean that they need to be held responsible for terrorism.

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Viking_Longship
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Pete my experience of you is that you tend to take the side of the underdog and you tend to perceive religous conservatives as underdogs.

Pointing out that the guy reacted to this by making the same arguments as a terrorist isn't saying he's responsible for terrorism. It's saying that he's making the same argument as the terrorist and maybe that should give him pause.

You shouldn't be trying to shut down any questioning of Islmaphobic rhetoric as "coffin dancing". That's not playing fair.

France has a whopping 6% of its population as Muslims, that's the largest percentage in the west. Norway is about 1%. The Islamification threat presumes that Muslims will refuse to assimilate and breed at a consistent rate for 50 more years and that the population of Europe will docily wait to be placed under Sharia.

The USA by that time will of course have outlawed English and anglo day laborers will be hanging outside of La Casa Depot (or however it would be spelled in Spanish) hoping we can score a few pesos.

[ July 24, 2011, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
OTOH, there's valid reason for concern in Europe for what Muslims will do;
Given the Serb genocide of Bosnia and the Russian genocide of Chechnya, and the anti-immigrants pogroms in Greece, I'm much more concerned about what the Christians will do in Europe.

quote:
look at Bethlehem, Lebanon, northern nigeria, and other places where Christians held a majority 75 years ago but were outstripped by Muslims. It's not a pretty picture, and you don't have to be a terrorist to consider it a cause for concern.
So it's coffin-dancing when I mention Timothy McVeigh or the Christian persecution of Jews, but it's not coffin-dancing when you or other people mention Lebanon or Northern Nigeria?

Can you define coffin-dancing *precisely*? Because I'm confused about which cases you feel it applies, and which cases it doesn't.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Pete my experience of you is that you tend to take the side of the underdog and you tend to perceive religous conservatives as underdogs.

Pointing out that the guy reacted to this by making the same arguments as a terrorist isn't saying he's responsible for terrorism. It's saying that he's making the same argument as the terrorist and maybe that should give him pause.

You shouldn't be trying to shut down any questioning of Islmaphobic rhetoric as "coffin dancing". That's not playing fair.

Since you're bringing it up on the thread of the Bombing in Europe, I think it's exactly fair. ****, man, they haven't even finished counting the dead; can you wait a few days before making political hay of it?
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TheDeamon
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
OTOH, there's valid reason for concern in Europe for what Muslims will do;
Given the Serb genocide of Bosnia and the Russian genocide of Chechnya, and the anti-immigrants pogroms in Greece, I'm much more concerned about what the Christians will do in Europe.
See, thing is that in those cases they're kind of pulling their version of being Native Americans. (or 15th/16th century Spain)

Russia and Serbia are "reclaiming lost territory" that used to belong to their ethnic group centuries ago before the forces of Islam rolled in and displaced them.

Greece is attempting to maintain status quo, much as it has been attempting to do for Centuries as well.

In some respects, not much different than a Native American tribe making it very unpleasant for a non-tribe member to justify remaining on land within their reservation(s). As I recall some tribes have pretty much attempted doing just that too. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they like to think it does.

[ July 24, 2011, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: TheDeamon ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:

Can you define coffin-dancing *precisely*? Because I'm confused about which cases you feel it applies, and which cases it doesn't.

The most obvious and eggregious type of coffin-dancing would be when you turn a funeral into a political platform. When you sneak jabs at your political opponents in a discourse that was intended to be about mourning, or about counting the dead.

quote:
So it's coffin-dancing when I mention Timothy McVeigh or the Christian persecution of Jews
No, Aris. Neither of those is an example of what I would call coffin-dancing. The first is a good analogy, the latter is a foolish analogy (and cynically oblivious to the difference between fact and fiction), but neither constitutes coffin-dancing.

[ July 24, 2011, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Since you're bringing it up on the thread of the Bombing in Europe, I think it's exactly fair. ****, man, they haven't even finished counting the dead; can you wait a few days before making political hay of it?
I'm sorry did I miss where this thread was designated a memorial service? Is that why you all were debating the death penalty on it?

The incident I was describing was making hay of the issue THAT DAY. I am simply pointing out the irony of AFR and all the posters on all the news threads that were going on anti-Islamic rant when the terrorist turned out to be radicaly anti-Islamic.

[ July 24, 2011, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Friday I was listening to American Family Radio as I was channel surfing (I have a long commute and not much to listen to) and the host of their news commentary as arguing that this was a result of the Islamification of Europe, by 2050 Europe will be 30% Muslim, Europe is probably going to be under Shar'ia ect ect..

You think that guys is going to be on tomorrow saying "oops, I was making the murderers case?"

Not likely...

Why should they? Anyone who lumps them with this terrorist is just coffin dancing.
Note you didn't say "that guy shouldn't have been making political hay out of this and neither should you." It was ok for him I guess?
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Pete at Home
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For me it goes without saying that the radio station were being ghoulish whores. I have a much higher opinion of you and Aris than to lump you with a radio station like that, Viking.

[ July 24, 2011, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete I appreciate you saying that now, but it really didn't go without saying. I can't read your mind.
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Pete I appreciate you saying that now, but it really didn't go without saying. I can't read your mind.

Noted, and I'll try to be more clear.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Since you're bringing it up on the thread of the Bombing in Europe, I think it's exactly fair. ****, man, they haven't even finished counting the dead; can you wait a few days before making political hay of it?
I'm sorry did I miss where this thread was designated a memorial service? Is that why you all were debating the death penalty on it?
We did get off-topic, but I certainly did not use this incident as proof that Norway should have impelemnted the DP or that the USA should keep it, etc.

In any event, this Norwegian terrorist didn't have a criminal record, so he can't be classified a failure of Norway's rehabilitation system.

I did suggest that Norway might want to take advantage of the international criminal tribunal system because of the scale of this atrocity, but that suggestion is not a reproach to Norwegian law. Indeed, Norway has showed great leadership and contribution to the international legal community.

In a nutshell, I think that terrorism on the McVeigh scale, as here, transcends the ordinary criminal law. I don't think there are any lessons to be learned from this horrid act of terrorism as to how Norway or the US should change its ordinary criminal system. I suspect that Norway's system of no DP and shorter prison terms works generally well for Norway, and that the US application of the DP, (other than in TX where being applied without due process) is the best we can do given present circumstances.

[ July 24, 2011, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Pete I appreciate you saying that now, but it really didn't go without saying. I can't read your mind.

I meant to convey my distaste for them when I said "I wouldn't take American Family's word for anything. But that doesn't mean that they need to be held responsible for terrorism."
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MxPickle
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Pete,

For most crimes I believe in rehabilitation. But I also believe in vengeance. You take a life, willfully and intentionally and 'if' that can be proven with absolute certainty, then you forfeit yours.

I admit that the US judicial system has been woefully inadequate when it comes to assuring that those put to death are guilty of the crime for which they are tried, but that is a fault with they system not with the penalty.

In cases like this I don't believe the death penalty works as a deterrent. But I do believe it keeps some people from committing murder.

If you took the death penalty away and somebody killed my kids, you'd be making a murderer out of me.

We in the US should concentrate first on "rehabilitating" the thousands of non-violent offenders we are "warehousing" in our 'for-profit-prisons' before we start trying to rehabilitate the ax-murderers. The best we can do for the murderers is insist on better evidence than single 'eye-witness' accounts (especially when it involves the victim and differing races). But if the eye-witness, the known facts, and forensics all convince a jury of his peers without a reasonable doubt that he did it; off with his head. (Or slowly fade off to sleep on a morphine cloud. As long as he forfeits the privilege of living.)

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