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Author Topic: Kim Jong Gone
Viking_Longship
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Outside of intellectual circles how impactful was Christopher Hitchens? Hitchens was a brilliant commentator and critic, but what did he ever really create himself?
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AI Wessex
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"I think what I'm saying, is that if you erased both Kim Jong Il and Christopher Hitchens from history, if you went back in time and destroyed them both as newly fertilized embryos, then the world would be more different due to the non-existance of Kimg Jong Il then from the non-existance of Christopher Hitchens."

If ideas don't count for as much as swords and guns, then Jesus was a pretty meek fellow, too. For that matter, the average Saturday night drunk bully is more important to me than Einstein, since Einstein can't hurt me.

Hitchens was no Jesus or even remotely a saint, but people will read his books and think about his ideas for generations. Our Dear Leader will be forgotten as soon as the new Our Dear Leader is crowned.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
I'm not saying that Hitchens was particularly impactful, but if you had removed KJL at birth, he would have been eventually replaced by some other progeny of his father's, likely not changing anything significantly.

Ahhhhhhh. That sounds like a guess. [Smile]

For instance, we know that the new "Dear Successor", Kim Jong-Un, is supposedly the youngest of his three children, and the only one who had a hope of actually being able to succeed him. I don't know if Kim Il-Sung had any other sons but I know he had at least a daughter.

The idea that somebody else would have just stepped in supportable. Somebody would have had to. The idea that the proposed individual would have done things exactly like Lil Couillion, or even so similarly that the nation would be in the same position now no matter who was in charge, is not supportable.

Would these two individuals have had such similiar personalities and similar solutions to problems that they would have made the exact same decisions or had the exact, or even similar results, over the span of two or more decades?

This also rules out that in the absence of Lil Couillion there might have been a transition to a different form of government, instability, or war. The same things that we are facing now in the Penninsula if Kim Jong-Un is not up to the job of dictating. It's true that somebody, or some group, will make a grab for power. But that person or group will most likely wrest power away from Jong-Un, not because of their similiarities, but because of their differences.

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JWatts
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Good Riddance to him. [Wink]
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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
If ideas don't count for as much as swords and guns, then Jesus was a pretty meek fellow, too. For that matter, the average Saturday night drunk bully is more important to me than Einstein, since Einstein can't hurt me.

Hitchens was no Jesus or even remotely a saint, but people will read his books and think about his ideas for generations. Our Dear Leader will be forgotten as soon as the new Our Dear Leader is crowned.

Ehhhhhh! Al! Did you read my post?

I said:

"Next, in the overall aspect of effecting people's lives, I am sure there are authors and individuals, whose thoughts and ideas span centuries and are the fulcrums of human history."

AND

"Christopher Hitchens wasn't one of those guys/girls, sorry."

Now how is that different then what you just said? You say that ideas count more then swords. I never said they didn't. You say that Jesus had a great impact on human history. So did I, I just didn't use his name, or the name of other individuals whose ideas have had that much impact.

All I'm saying, just like you say, is that Chris Hitchens wadn't no Jesus, or Muhammad, or Moses, or Aristotle, or Aquainas, or Marx, or Darwin, or Freud. His books are not going to be included in the Brittanica "Great Book" series, even though he does qualify by being white, dead, and male. But his books, his ideas, are not going to be effecting people the way those people's books and ideas have effected people.

You say Kim Jong-Il will soon be forgotten? I bet you that the most known English Monarch, by everyday Americans, besides Elizabeth II, is George III. And he doesn't come CLOSE to the tyranny quotient that Lil Couillion has ranked. Name some Russian Czars. Wow, did Ivan the Terrible come up?

Finally, I understand completely that most likely Einstein will have more of an effect on the universe then a two-bit thug. But consider that concept when you walk out of Applebees one night and the thug drives a knife into your kidney and takes your wallet. As you lie dying in a pool of your own blood, and listen as the sirens come closer and closer as you get colder and colder, consider wether the thug or Einstein had a greater effect on your life. Consider wether North Koreans 500 years from now will know Kim Jong-Il's name, or Chris Hitchens.

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Pete at Home
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I'm just excited to hear the dramatic birth backstory for the next dear leader ...

quote:
Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a Double Rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.
Double Rainbow! What does this mean? It's so bright!

How do you even begin to spoof that?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Grant:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/18/world/asia/north-korea-leader-dead/?hpt=hp_t1

This is what happens when you threaten to bomb Christmas trees, people! Let this be a lesson!

http://rt.com/news/korea-christmas-lights-warning-543/


How come nobody said anything about this? You guys know I don't watch the news.

Looks like Koreans got an early Christmas present this year from God...
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Grant
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I think that the southpark version of Santa dove down in his red sleigh and dropped the hammer of christmas spirit down on Lil Kim Couillion.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by manji:
You've got your timeline incorrect. I simply corrected you after you said "Jong Dong Gone". Then, you wrote:

quote:
Jeong Deong Geone

So Leong!

Sing sad Seong

Sorry if my Korean Wreong.

Bing Bang Beong.

If you believe I'm looking for a fight, then I believe you are deluded. I believe the above to be a deliberate provocation.
"Provocation!" Wasn't that the Dear Leader's favorite word? You going to shell my house?
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Pete at Home
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While I do see there have been edits to some of my later posts (not sure what was removed!) I do note that the original one which manji complained about, has not been edited. Good thing, because there was nothing wrong about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by manji:
The phoneme isn't "jong". It's more like jeong or jung. Your Korean is atrocious.

Jeong Deong Geone

So Leong!

Sing sad Seong

Sorry if my Korean Wreong.

Bing Bang Beong.

quote:
Originally posted by manji:
I find your attempts at humor offensive. I've reported it to the moderator.


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manji
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Yes, you certainly do like to draw equivalence between me and the dictator. Noted.
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Pete at Home
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You do make an easy target that way, Manji. If you don't like it, avoid words like "provocation."

But seriously, this should be a time of rejoicing for Koreans. Why the sour face, Manji?

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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
It's not more pressing, as he never had a nuclear weapon and crazy ambitions of building a personal empire. But he was arguably far more meaningful as a thought leader and is getting lots of reflective attention in the media. It's a good idea to start a thread on his life and thought. I would want to read up before jumping in.

A few months ago Hitchens said in an interview that he was uncomfortable with the idea that he might die before the people he hated died: Bill Clinton, Kissinger, Kim Jong Il.
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Pete at Home
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Wow, and here I was just trying to outlive Madonna.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
While I do see there have been edits to some of my later posts (not sure what was removed!) I do note that the original one which manji complained about, has not been edited. Good thing, because there was nothing wrong about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by manji:
The phoneme isn't "jong". It's more like jeong or jung. Your Korean is atrocious.

Jeong Deong Geone

So Leong!

Sing sad Seong

Sorry if my Korean Wreong.

Bing Bang Beong.

quote:
Originally posted by manji:
I find your attempts at humor offensive. I've reported it to the moderator.


While it is kind of absurd to declare that your Korean is atrocious, your response does bear an unfortunate resemblance to the thankfully obsolete oriental jokes of the past. I don't think its unreasonable to find that offensive.
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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I'm just excited to hear the dramatic birth backstory for the next dear leader ...

quote:
Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a Double Rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.
Double Rainbow! What does this mean? It's so bright!

How do you even begin to spoof that?

Great Scott. If it hasn't been spoofed already, some basement dweller is working on it right now. And all the birds in Korea also sang heralding the future leader.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
While I do see there have been edits to some of my later posts (not sure what was removed!) I do note that the original one which manji complained about, has not been edited. Good thing, because there was nothing wrong about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by manji:
The phoneme isn't "jong". It's more like jeong or jung. Your Korean is atrocious.

Jeong Deong Geone

So Leong!

Sing sad Seong

Sorry if my Korean Wreong.

Bing Bang Beong.

quote:
Originally posted by manji:
I find your attempts at humor offensive. I've reported it to the moderator.


While it is kind of absurd to declare that your Korean is atrocious, your response does bear an unfortunate resemblance to the thankfully obsolete oriental jokes of the past.
All I did was follow Manji's foolish demand and put Manji's recommended phonemes into the words. If the result looks in your opinion like "obsolete oriental jokes," that's manji's fault, not mine.
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Adam Masterman
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"Sorry if my Korean Wroeng" sounds very much in the same vein as "me speak-a chinese", and that has nothing to do with the phonemes. That was the part *I* considered unfortunate, anyway.
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Pete at Home
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It had everything with phonemes, and with responding to what Manji's foolish insistence that I stick Korean Phonemes into English sentences while talking about Manji's great leader.
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Pete at Home
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It's all such a shallow complaint anyway, Adam. If someone complains about green Jello with carrots in it, I don't go crying about religious persecution.
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manji
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You and everyone else may think it is a shallow complaint, but I do not.

And I did not demand that you use the correct Korean phonemes. I was saying you were wrong.

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Pete at Home
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Wrong about what?
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Pete at Home
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Adam, would you find it terribly "unfortunate" if someone said something that appeared to resemble spoofs of the German language in an article that celebrated the death of Adolph Hitler?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I'm just excited to hear the dramatic birth backstory for the next dear leader ...

quote:
Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a Double Rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens.
Double Rainbow! What does this mean? It's so bright!

How do you even begin to spoof that?

Great Scott. If it hasn't been spoofed already, some basement dweller is working on it right now. And all the birds in Korea also sang heralding the future leader.
I wish I knew how to use "auto-tune." It would be fun to have Osama Bin Laden and Kim Il Sung singing to the tune of Ding Dong the Witch is dead.

Now if Ahminejad dies before the end of 2011, then I'd hate to be an atheist trying to explain how there isn't a God.

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manji
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Perhaps to American ears, it is hilarious when you set "jong" adjacent to "dong". By providing the correct Korean pronunciation, I believed I was showing you that the pun was a non-starter.

Even all the "dong" jokes you get about North Korean missiles are incorrect, because there is no "o" phoneme in Korean, in relation to rhyming with "dong" or "wrong". There may be a vowel transcribed as "o", but it is not actually pronounced that way.

Coincidentally, dong also happens to be a suffix in certain Korean male names.

Still, the jong/dong jokes were not what made me report to the moderator.

[ December 19, 2011, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: manji ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by manji:
Perhaps to American ears, it is hilarious when you set "jong" adjacent to "dong".

To American and European ears, a solid combination of assonance and alliteration (such as a poem consisting only of words with the ONG sound in them) is truly hilarious. That's precisely why Dr. Seuss is so popular. And AFAIK Seuss had nothing against Koreans, either.

quote:
By providing the correct Korean pronunciation, I believed I was showing you that the pun was a non-starter.

Even all the "dong" jokes you get about North Korean missiles are incorrect, because there is no "o" phoneme in Korean, in relation to rhyming with "dong" or "wrong". There may be a vowel transcribed as "o", but it is not actually pronounced that way.

If you'd said that, rather than "your Korean is atrocious" (when i was plainly speaking English and referring to the dictator's Anglified name) I'd have filed that away and it would have been the end of the conversation.

Incidentally if I'd been trying to make fun of "Oriental" accents I'd have said "sorry my Korean wong" rather than "sorry if my Korean wreong."

[ December 19, 2011, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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manji
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Forgive me if I fail to see the similarity between you and Dr. Seuss.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Adam, would you find it terribly "unfortunate" if someone said something that appeared to resemble spoofs of the German language in an article that celebrated the death of Adolph Hitler?

Not really. There isn't really a racist meme against germans in our culture (not surprising when you consider that our collective ethnic background is largely german).

Conversely, marking the death of Idi Amin by dressing up in blackface and doing a skit... would be different, for reasons that I assume are self-explanatory.

I very much doubt that that your intent was to be offensive in any kind of racist sense, which is why I used the term unfortunate. However, your poem definitely sounded to me like the broken english mockery that's historically associated with expression of bigotry towards Asians and Asian-Americans. You needn't read my remark as anything beyond the mere information that it sounded offensive to at least one other set of ears.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by manji:
Perhaps to American ears, it is hilarious when you set "jong" adjacent to "dong".

To American and European ears, a solid combination of assonance and alliteration (such as a poem consisting only of words with the ONG sound in them) is truly hilarious. That's precisely why Dr. Seuss is so popular. And AFAIK Seuss had nothing against Koreans, either.
Honestly, Manji, you and the Kim dictators are the only three Koreans that I've had an issue with. (Assuming that you are Korean rather than some American pretending to be in order to launch a PC jihad [Wink] ) Koreans have the second-coolest looking Alphabet (after the Thai), and Korean food rocks. Despite your best efforts, I'm still a Koreaphile.

[ December 19, 2011, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Adam, would you find it terribly "unfortunate" if someone said something that appeared to resemble spoofs of the German language in an article that celebrated the death of Adolph Hitler?

Not really. There isn't really a racist meme against germans in our culture (not surprising when you consider that our collective ethnic background is largely german).
You honestly telling me that you haven't heard as much spoofing of German accents in conjunction with cultural stereotypes, as you have heard done with Asians?

There are PC issues which inure to justice and fairness. I don't think that's one of them, but I do appreciate your opinion, however mistaken it may be [Wink] .

[ December 19, 2011, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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ken_in_sc
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I was taught that when someone dies you should only say something good. Kim Jeong Il has died. Good!
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Pete at Home
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[Big Grin]
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edgmatt
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A conversation about it with an informed person:

quote:
S: I see many people posting about Kim Jong Il's death tonight. I'm wondering how many of you actually know what this REALLY means. Kim jong il's death, although positive in some ways cannot really be celebrated. Its not like the wizard of oz when the wicked witch dies and everyone can dance and sing and be free and happy. Whether the son successfully takes over, or the regime collapses, many people are going to be affected. Many innocent people are going to lose their lives. For the people of North Korea as well as neighboring South Korea, I pray for your safety in both the short and long term. This is truly shocking and disturbing news to say the least.

B: im saddened and relieved at the same time that he died. he was a horrible person but its still upsetting

S: Exactly. For as much as I've studied about North Korea, it makes me a little upset to see so many people blindly reacting to the news without understanding the background leading up to it, or whats to come. Its scary. And at least in the short term, this is really frightening news. Alot of people are most certainly going to die. And for me knowing people who live in South Korea, I'm genuinely scared for their safety and well being.

At the very least, I hope all this coverage and talk about North Korea will bring to light, not just the crisis there, but the extent of the crisis. Most people, especially in this country, have little to no idea what actually goes on there. So I hope people look past the headlines about Kim Jong Il, and instead go read about the people of North Korea.

Everyone cares about it today. But a week, 2weeks from now when some other big headline takes its place, everyone will just forget. I've been on a "kim jong il watch" for about 2 years now. I've pretty much read about it daily. There's so much that people don't understand. Even the timing of his death is outrageous. 2012 would have been the 100th birthday of Kim jong il's father Kim il sung. North Korea has been preparing for that and have been getting ready to make HUGE changes in 2012 to celebrate it. With KJL's death just weeks before the new year...that in itself is just a cluster****

Korean stocks went down (except the military stocks which went up to the max), the Korean won (currency) weakened the moment the news hit. Just some of the immediate effects...

ME:what is going to cause people to lose their lives? Is it just the negative effect on the economy that his death is going to have? Or is there going to be riots? Don't misunderstand, my tone isn't skeptical, just curious.


S: Economic effects around the world is just one factor. Millions have already died there due to starvation, illness, or the severe beatings, torture, inhumane treatment and executions taking place in the concentration camps. I believe its an estimated 200,000 people being held in these camps. If the son takes over successfully, the north Korean people will continue to die by the hundreds, thousands. Also, because of the transition of power, in order to ensure its smooth and successful, its very much a possibility they will launch an attack on South Korea as a show of power. If the regime collapses, not only will there be mass chaos within North Korea (the people there are pretty much helpless. they've been frozen in time and have next to no correct knowledge about the outside world), but there will be a massive flood of people into South Korea seeking help. A reunification of the Koreas has been estimated to cost in the Trillions for South Korea so obviously there's issue with that. And Just the sheer lack of control of a few million people flooding the south, its unknown what type of conflict/warlike situation may come of it. Its an unbelievably sensitive and messy situation.


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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
While it is kind of absurd to declare that your Korean is atrocious, your response does bear an unfortunate resemblance to the thankfully obsolete oriental jokes of the past. I don't think its unreasonable to find that offensive.

To find offensive, no. To take to the moderator, and to make a public announcement that one is doing so, was patently unreasonable, and worthy of contempt.

Followed your link, and here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jCKxWQCs3f0

Seems to me fairly uneducated to use the term "racism" to refer to poking fun of a specific pidgin. (Even though I wasn't doing the latter, either).

[ December 20, 2011, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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manji
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I fail to see how it was unreasonable. What would be unreasonable would be to fire back with a rant making baseless insults against you. That would be unreasonable.
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djquag1
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Last word.

Haha I beat you both.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by edgmatt:
A conversation about it with an informed person

I think my flying monkey poo flinging metaphor aptly discribed, in far fewer words, the positions being laid out by the informatii.

I thought this little analysis was pretty good, though it was done about a week before Kim Jong Lil Couillion's death. Pretty prescient.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/ML13Dg01.html

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Pete at Home
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[ December 20, 2011, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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OrneryMod
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It's all fun and games until someone tells you that they don't appreciate what you are doing. At that point you need to stop what you are doing, rethink things (perhaps from their perspective), and figure out how to express your brilliant ideas in a way that doesn't offend.

Ornery is at its best when ideas are the focus of the conversation and personal attacks are completely left out.

We have become a small enough community that losing more members (whether it be people who decide there is more noise than signal, or members who get banned because they can't play nice with others) is a serious problem. We want to be bringing in more members, not driving our current members away.

I was tempted to close this thread, but there are some informational and thought provoking conversations taking place. Let's have more of that, and less of the personal attacks (please).

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AI Wessex
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"You say Kim Jong-Il will soon be forgotten? I bet you that the most known English Monarch, by everyday Americans, besides Elizabeth II, is George III. And he doesn't come CLOSE to the tyranny quotient that Lil Couillion has ranked. Name some Russian Czars. Wow, did Ivan the Terrible come up?"

I understand your point, but how many people will remember who Pol Pot was in 20 years? How many remember now that he was the head of the Khmer Rouge whose regime killed almost 20% of its own population, many purely because they were members of the educated middle class. I bet fewer than 2% of Americans recognize the name and half of those get him confused with Lon Nol, yet he led a far more brutal and destructive regime than Kim Jong Il. In a hundred years people will probably remember only through the movie "The Killing Fields".
quote:
"Christopher Hitchens wasn't one of those guys/girls, sorry."

Now how is that different then what you just said?

I think Hitchens will be remembered for his brilliant oratory and carefully articulated views about Man and God. In fact, he may be remembered as one of the leading "religious" thinkers of the 20th Century down the road.

[ December 20, 2011, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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