Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » US-born game developer sentenced to death in Iran

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: US-born game developer sentenced to death in Iran
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pretty bad news for this ex-Marine and his family:

quote:

After a trip to visit family in Iran last August, an Iranian-American citizen was arrested for and convicted of espionage and has since been sentenced to death. A former US Marine born in Flagstaff, Arizona, Amir Mizra Hekmati now has 20 days to appeal the verdict or the decision will be final. His family has since hired a lawyer with experience in negotiating with the government of Iran, and he is currently attempting to meet with Iranian officials.
...
A confession in which Hekmati admits to the accusations was aired on Iranian television and also published in the Tehran Times.

"After (working for DARPA), I went to Kuma (Games Company)," the confession read in part. "This computer company was receiving money from the CIA to (produce) and design and distribute for free special movies and games with the aim of manipulating public opinion in the Middle East. The goal of the company in question was to convince the people of Iran and the people of the entire world that whatever the U.S. does in other countries is a good measure."
...
"The Iranian authorities are denying that Amir is a United States citizen, despite the fact he was born in Flagstaff, Arizona," Hekmati's parents said in a statement released yesterday. "Amir did not engage in any acts of spying, or 'fighting against God,' as the convicting judge has claimed in his sentence. Amir is not a criminal. His very life is being exploited for political gain."

According to Hekmati's lawyer, Pierre Prosper, who previously served as ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues under the Bush administration, Hekmati's trial took place a few months after his initial arrest, lasted only half a day, and a verdict was handed down just a few weeks later. "We also are troubled by the fact there's been no transparency," he told CNN, "so it is really hard to see what happened."

Ars

quote:
Hekmati, who served in the U.S. Marines from 2001 to 2005, was arrested in August 2011 while visiting his grandmother and other relatives in Iran. His family has said he made the trip after obtaining permission from the Iranian Interests Section of the Pakistani Embassy in Washington.
CNN

quote:
In December, Sherri Condon, a software engineer who worked with Hekmati in 2008 and 2009 on an effort to develop a two-way, hand-held electronic translator for U.S. troops, said, "it just doesn't sound like Amir to me."
...
"I really like him," said Condon, who identified Hekmati from the images released by Iranian state television. "He wasn't too nose-to-the-grindstone, but he really worked and put out good effort on behalf of these programs we worked with."

The work, funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, was aimed at improving communications between U.S. troops and local populations -- a problem with which Hekmati had grappled during service with the Marines in Iraq. He appeared in a video that touted the "souped-up iPods," describing how American troops sometimes lost hours waiting for a translator to help them pose simple questions.

"He knew enough to be very helpful for us, and he was very helpful to us in terms of understanding the context in which the devices might be used," Condon said. "He had the military experience."

Hekmati was convicted of "working for an enemy country ... for membership in the CIA and also for his efforts to accuse Iran of involvement in terrorism," Iran's semi-official Fars news agency reported Monday. He was sentenced to death.

This guy is just so screwed. He never should have entered Iran, just because the Iranian section of the Pakistanis Embassy said it would be fine.

The Iranian government has a televised public confession and it's public knowledge he was working for the DoD in software development. Granted, the confession is pretty obviously coerced, but I can't see Iran backing down at this point.

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
State Murder of a us citizen under these circumstances IMO constitutes casual belli. Iran is escalating, testing us. eventually iran will send an invitation that we simply can't turn down. Given that inevitability, we should choose the time and place.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Iran is certainly testing us, but the casus belli aspect may well keep the Marine alive. Iran may be hesitant to kill him just for that reason. At least I'm going to hope that's the case and the Marine gets out of this situation alive and healthy.
Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
djquag1
Member
Member # 6553

 - posted      Profile for djquag1   Email djquag1       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Their definition of spying is pretty ridiculous. More like fomenting public dissent, and it's a long shot that even those charges are true. Then again, you have to believe that the CIA has just as many agents and spies crammed into Iran as they can fit.

Either way, JWatts is right. The man wins a Darwin Award for even stepping foot in the country.

And there is no way in hell that Obama threatens war over this man. Even Bush wouldn't have.

Posts: 769 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Either way, JWatts is right. The man wins a Darwin Award for even stepping foot in the country.

And there is no way in hell that Obama threatens war over this man. Even Bush wouldn't have.

SGT Hekmati is either a dull tool or actually working for US intel. I honestly suspect the first.

I don't necessarily see this as cassus belli, but if the President is looking for an opportunity to wag the dog a little, and beef up his foreign policy image even more, this is the perfect opportunity. You can act shocked or be outraged that I imply that the POTUS would do such a thing, but I have already heard two analysts on CNBC predict that this year the President would help spark revolution in Iran by threatening to put boots on the ground in response to, well, whatever.

Going to war over one marine probably won't fly with the public, but it's a start, if that is what the white house has planned.

[ January 11, 2012, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Grant ]

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ken_in_sc
Member
Member # 6462

 - posted      Profile for ken_in_sc   Email ken_in_sc       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ever heard of the 'War of Jenkin's Ear'? If it is politically useful, wars can start over anything or nothing.
Posts: 159 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
Iran is certainly testing us, but the casus belli aspect may well keep the Marine alive. Iran may be hesitant to kill him just for that reason. At least I'm going to hope that's the case and the Marine gets out of this situation alive and healthy.

They are trying to start a war. And their provocations will continue to escalate.

Casus belli does not mean that you have to go to war, simply that you can do so without it being considered aggression.

Iran has refused to acknowledge the citizenship of a native born American.

I am not saying invade, but try seizing their oil tankers. Make back the money they extorted for those hikers. Task psyops with schemes to humiliate the ayatollatalitarians.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Casus belli does not mean that you have to go to war, simply that you can do so without it being considered aggression.

I don't disagree. What I meant was that China executing an American citizen on trumped up charges is a pretty good casus belli. If they want to avoid war, they may well decide to not kill him.

Obviously, if they are actively trying to provoke the US then killing him would support that policy. I'm hoping that's not the case.

[ January 11, 2012, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: JWatts ]

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
djquag1
Member
Member # 6553

 - posted      Profile for djquag1   Email djquag1       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure I understand why Iran would try to start a war with the US. What good comes out of it?

They're playing games, sure. But to put their every action down to their wishing desperately for a shooting war with the most powerful nation on the planet? That's stretching it. For all their many,many vices, I've not seen anything to mark them as being suicidally insane.

Posts: 769 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
They are trying to start a war. And their provocations will continue to escalate.

Casus belli does not mean that you have to go to war, simply that you can do so without it being considered aggression.

Iran has refused to acknowledge the citizenship of a native born American.

I am not saying invade, but try seizing their oil tankers. Make back the money they extorted for those hikers. Task psyops with schemes to humiliate the ayatollatalitarians.

Slow down there Capn Sparrow.

I'm going with DJ on this one. I don't think they want a war with the United States. I think they just want to make themselves look as powerful as possible to their people, compaired to the US. On top of that, I think that Iran honestly may think SGT Hek might have been involved in espionage.

Maybe they want to trade operatives. I'm sure they don't really care if SGT Hek is CIA/DIA or not. Maybe they hope they can get something from all this. I'm sure the Commandant of the Corps is asking around to see what we can do for him.

2. I think seizing those oil tankers might be a little too much like piracy. See, I think the oil in those tankers are already paid for, by France, Italy, maybe China or Japan. So you might not actually be taking Iran's oil. You'd probably be seizing oil that belongs to France, Italy, or China.

I'm sure they might not be too happy about us taking that oil.

3. I'm not sure about the concept of not acknowleging SGT Hek's citizenship. Next to the charge of espionage, I'm not sure it matters. Nations have the right to charge citizens of other nations with espionage and execute them. That being said, nations rarely do execute individuals they charge with espionage, if they actually announce that they have been caught. It's simply not part of the gentleman's (or lady's) game.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Adam Masterman
Member
Member # 1142

 - posted      Profile for Adam Masterman   Email Adam Masterman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This situation is very likely connected, in the Iranians' minds, at least; to the assassinations of their nuclear scientists. It seems most likely that Israel is behind the bombings, but Iran could very well consider this Marine a form of retaliation/bargaining chip.
Posts: 4823 | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
This situation is very likely connected, in the Iranians' minds, at least; to the assassinations of their nuclear scientists.

I think it has more to do with the new oil sanctions being placed on Iran by the US. They're going to have to offer their oil now very cheaply to China and Pakistan to make up for lost sales. Maybe they think they can use SGT Hek as a bargaining chip for lowering sanctions. Then again it could just be propaganda. Show the citizens of Iran that they can defeat the US, catch it's spies, and show how anti-government pro-American sentiment is being driven by the CIA.

I think Iran knows exactly who killed their scientists. I don't think that they could use SGT Hek as a chip for the US to place pressure on Israel. First, I don't think it would work. Second, what would Iran want in response to the assassination of their scientists? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Why would you hold and threaten to execute an operative from one nation (who supposedly was involved in stirring up anti-government sentiment, not involved in wetworks) in response from the assassinations by a second nation? What do they want in return for SGT Hek? A nuclear bomb? New scientists? The death of Israeli nuclear scientists? Money? I'm not a spymaster but that doesn't sound like the Chicago way. Sounds like something VP Cheney would come up with.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anybody know how many troops we actually still have in Iraq?
Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Anybody know how many troops we actually still have in Iraq?

Heh. The President told me they were all back home. Heh.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hence my use of the words "actually" and "still"
Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The number is actually supposedly zero. No comabat troops. No training units. Nada. For almost a month now.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course, there are still many thousands of US troops in Kuwait.

[ January 11, 2012, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JWatts ]

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
Of course, there are still many thousands of US troops in Kuwait.

This is true. I'm not exactly sure who is there now. I don't even know if there is a combat arms formation there, or if it simply logistics and intel personnel. If I had to guess, I would say that there was nothing larger then a Brigade sized combat unit in Kuwait, and the chances are that we don't even have that. I don't really know.
Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The best intel from the Grey Putain on US ground forces in Kuwait:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/world/middleeast/united-states-plans-post-iraq-troop-increase-in-persian-gulf.html?pagewanted=all

It makes me feel warm and fuzzy when my guesses turn out mostly right.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An opinion poll and editorial this morning on Iran in IBD.

http://news.investors.com/Article/597432/201201111732/52-percent-favor-military-action-to-stop-nuclear-iran.htm

quote:
Iran as a foreign policy challenge is beginning to boil over. President Obama recently made it significantly tougher for countries to purchase Iranian oil. Last month, Tehran threatened to close the Strait of Hormuz, the major artery for Persian Gulf oil exports, prompting the U.S. military to warn that it would physically intervene to prevent that. Iran's Revolutionary Court on Monday condemned to death a 28-year-old Iranian American who had been visiting his grandparents in August, accusing him of espionage.


http://news.investors.com/Article/597524/201201111855/new-kind-of-war-declared-on-iran.htm

quote:
It is a sign, however, that some kind of conflict has started, maybe not a conventional war as in Iraq or Afghanistan but as a fairly hot cold war. As these maneuvers add up, the great hope will be that the U.S. and its allies succeed in overthrowing Iran's mullahs before they can launch a hot war through a nuclear strike.


I honestly do not know what Iran has done lately, except for the threatened closing of the Straight of Hormuz (what's new there?), and threatening to execute SGT Hek (first time they have threatened to execute American citizens?).

I think Iran is just as dangerous today as they were last month, or last year, or four years ago. Everybody has seen the writing on the wall.

I think all the late sabre rattling is possibly due to one thing. I think the big heads have decided to make Iran THE foreign policy topic during the presidential election. Both sides I think have basically agreed to this. The present administration is betting that they can make something happen in Iran before November, and the Republicans are betting that the administration will screw the pooch.

[ January 12, 2012, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Grant ]

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grant:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
They are trying to start a war. And their provocations will continue to escalate.

Casus belli does not mean that you have to go to war, simply that you can do so without it being considered aggression.

Iran has refused to acknowledge the citizenship of a native born American.

I am not saying invade, but try seizing their oil tankers. Make back the money they extorted for those hikers. Task psyops with schemes to humiliate the ayatollatalitarians.

Slow down there Capn Sparrow.

I'm going with DJ on this one. I don't think they want a war with the United States. I think they just want to make themselves look as powerful as possible to their people, compaired to the US. On top of that, I think that Iran honestly may think SGT Hek might have been involved in espionage.

Maybe they want to trade operatives. I'm sure they don't really care if SGT Hek is CIA/DIA or not. Maybe they hopelessness they can get something from all this. I'm sure the Commandant of the Corps is asking around to see what we can do for him.

2. I think seizing those oil tankers might be a little too much like piracy. See, I think the oil in those tankers are already paid for, by France, Italy, maybe China or Japan. So you might not actually be taking Iran's oil. You'd probably be seizing oil that belongs to France, Italy, or China.

I'm sure they might not be too happy about us taking that oil.

3. I'm not sure about the concept of not acknowleging SGT Hek's citizenship. Next to the charge of espionage, I'm not sure it matters. Nations have the right to charge citizens of other nations with espionage and execute them. That being said, nations rarely do execute individuals they charge with espionage, if they actually announce that they have been caught. It's simply not part of the gentleman's (or lady's) game.

Piracy is a proper response to systematic kidnapping. A time-honored tradition, actually. Even provided for in our Constitution under the Letters clauses.

Iran seizes embassies, supports international terrorism, promoted a politico-religious doctrine that no moral or humanitarian restrictions apply when fighting the USA. in that light I propose that the queensbury rules don't apply here. Not suggesting abrogation of humanitarian rules; merely those connected to politeness and dignity towards nations than behave like nations.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
djquag1
Member
Member # 6553

 - posted      Profile for djquag1   Email djquag1       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thing is, if Iran has some proof that the man was there to spy or as an agent, then they're well within their rights to execute him.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that you can't trust the word of Iran, especially on this. But do you think that the US DOESN'T have spies and agents there? It's certainly possible that he is one. And if he is, then Iran is well within their rights to march him out back and shoot him. I could go either way, given the lack of evidence. But to declare that they'd be morally or legally wrong to execute a spy, I don't buy that. Even if they're on the "other" side.

Posts: 769 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Piracy is a proper response to systematic kidnapping. A time-honored tradition, actually. Even provided for in our Constitution under the Letters clauses.

Ok, me hearty. Just keep that in mind when China calls up on the phone wondering why you've stopped their oil imports. I seem to remember Japan not responding very well when we shut off their supply.

"Gweilo, US Navy #*&^sucka, oil!"
"Now Wu, this is a time honored tradition, and an appropriate response to the systematic....
"US Navy, #*$^sucka"!

Just means that Akaminijihadidad and China will get to be hang dai.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Thing is, if Iran has some proof that the man was there to spy or as an agent, then they're well within their rights to execute him.

Sure. And if he is actually a US agent, we're obliged to get him out, poop on Iran's rights. If we were that concerned over Iran's rights, we shouldn't be sending spies over there in the first place.

If he's not an agent, you can say our obligation is less, since he went over there on his own. It does seem strange though to expend more energy on the guilty then the innocent, but there it is. Hopefully we might be able to make a deal.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Thing is, if Iran has some proof that the man was there to spy or as an agent, then they're well within their rights to execute him.

You are ignoring a lot of historic precedent. Certainly, nations have the 'right' to execute anyone caught within their boundaries violating their rules. However, traditionally spies aren't executed and it's also unlikely this person was a spy.

Would you make this same statement defending the US if we started executing suspected Chinese spies?

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grant
Member
Member # 1925

 - posted      Profile for Grant   Email Grant       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
You are ignoring a lot of historic precedent.

That's a good point. I'll be sure to bring that up to the Iranians.

They'll probably respond with complaints about the Mossad breaking the rules first.

Posts: 3264 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
djquag1
Member
Member # 6553

 - posted      Profile for djquag1   Email djquag1       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
JWatts -
It wouldn't exactly be smart to execute Chinese spies, but it's not as though the US wouldn't be within it's rights to do so. And Iran and the US are pretty much in a cold war; I wouldn't call the relationship between the US and China that bad...yet.

But I'm not meaning to imply that Iran wouldn't be stupid to kill this man. I'm not unaware of the realpolitik aspects, and I doubt Iran will decide that the positives to execution outweigh the negatives. My comments were meant to stand more against the assumptions that

A) Iran executing the man, even if he really is a spy, would be some kind of massive outrage, a substantial (and not just technical) cause to declare war.

B)That the man is not a spy, because it's Iran, who always lies about everything. And also because the United States never uses spies. Right? Right.

Posts: 769 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
My comments were meant to stand more against the assumptions that:

A) Iran executing the man, even if he really is a spy, would be some kind of massive outrage, a substantial (and not just technical) cause to declare war.

And I have no idea how you come to this conclusion.

Do you think the Chinese would be outraged if we executed one of their nationals who had been in the country a total of two weeks before he was detained? A case in which not only did we not catch him red handed, but in which we didn't even accuse him of a serious breach of law. They would justifiably be furious. Intentionally killing someone for what appears to be very specious charges is not something most people are forgiving over.


quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
B)That the man is not a spy, because it's Iran, who always lies about everything. And also because the United States never uses spies. Right? Right.

Except you are well into strawman territory here. No one has claimed that the US doesn't use or have spies in Iran. Being a spy doesn't mean that the host nation can execute you at will. It's not specifically even a crime. Most spies are the equivalent of eyes on the ground in a country.

During the Cold War, most, if not all, Soviet visitors to the US had to file debriefs with the KGB. What would the reaction have been if we had started hanging them for spying on the US?


Certain acts of espionage are crimes. Just reporting on what you see in a foreign country, providing information to their intelligence service or making a video game is not generally considered a reason to execute someone.

Did you even realize that the Iranian prosecution presented no evidence at the trial? That the sole reason is a confession, in which the Marine admits to:

quote:
"I was given access to the most secret data systems for gathering the required information before being sent to US Bagram Base in Afghanistan," he said. The arrested spy went on to say that from US Bagram Base to Kabul was 45 minutes and he worked at a spy center in Bagram.

"I had a series of flights from Bagram, including a flight to Dubai where I stayed for two days and then I came to Tehran by plane afterwards." Hekmati added.

He pointed out that the CIA's plot was to provide Iran's Intelligence Ministry with a series of apparently important classified information and then see how successful they were before contacting me. "However, Iranian officials found out the truth. They dismantled the CIA spy network in Iran by finding out about my mission," Hekmati concluded.

That's what he's allegedly guilt of. So even if the Iranian's charges aren't completely trumped up the penalty is still ridiculously harsh for the alleged crime. His alleged crime is providing Iran's Intelligence Ministry with a series of apparently important classified information.
Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Thing is, if Iran has some proof that the man was there to spy or as an agent, then they're well within their rights to execute him.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that you can't trust the word of Iran, especially on this. But do you think that the US DOESN'T have spies and agents there? It's certainly possible that he is one. And if he is, then Iran is well within their rights to march him out back and shoot him. I could go either way, given the lack of evidence. But to declare that they'd be morally or legally wrong to execute a spy, I don't buy that. Even if they're on the "other" side.

They are within their Geneva rights to execute an American spy if and only if the USA is at war with Iran. So by referencing Iran's "right" to execute an American citizen, you are effectively admitting my point that Iran is committing an act of war against us.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
djquag1, during the entire Cold War, can you name one single Russian Citizen whom the United States executed for espionage?

Can you name any single US citizen whom Russia executed for espionage?

I'm not saying "an outrage that justifies declaring war;" I'm saying that Iran is committing a calculated act of war.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I'm not saying "an outrage that justifies declaring war;" I'm saying that Iran is committing a calculated act of war.

Just to clarify, I assume you mean that if Iran executes Hekmati it will be an "act of war"? I don't believe a trial, ridiculous verdict or not, is in itself sufficient provocation.

I also still think it's really a causa belli and not an actual "act of war", but admittedly the distinction is academic if not pedantic.

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Declaring that a nativewoman's born American was not a us citizen while holding himthing in custody may in itself suffice as an act of war.

I don't distinguish act.of war from Cause Belli; unaware.of.even an academic distinction.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I don't distinguish act.of war from Cause Belli; unaware.of.even an academic distinction.

There's a clear distinction.

Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning the justification for acts of war

Casus belli is a reason not the act itself. Iran executing a spy isn't an actual act of war against the US. However, it could be considered a reason for the US to go to war.

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Your distinction has been archaic since Nuremberg defined aggression.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
By the archaic definition a need for living space might be Casus belli
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1