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Author Topic: Martin and Zimmerman
Wayward Son
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quote:
Well, it's possible monkeys flew out of his ass and did it. Do you think it's likely? [Wink]
Monkeys? No. But a guy who just shot someone and panics, it is definitely possible, although not "likely" by my book. Well within the range of looking into to it to see if there is evidence that it might have happened, rather than to simply conclude it couldn't have possibly happened.

For instance, it is far, far more likely to have happened than you ever admitting that you might be wrong. [Smile]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Well, it's possible monkeys flew out of his ass and did it. Do you think it's likely? [Wink]
Monkeys? No. But a guy who just shot someone and panics, it is definitely possible, although not "likely" by my book. Well within the range of looking into to it to see if there is evidence that it might have happened, rather than to simply conclude it couldn't have possibly happened.
Investigations tend to need to focus on real events. If you want to make up scenarios that are not likely, you might as well halt all investigations due to lack of resources (was there a mysterious 3rd party that roughed up Zimmerman? Maybe he just cut himself shaving? Could it have been aliens? etc, etc). Occam's razor applies even in criminal investigations.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
For instance, it is far, far more likely to have happened than you ever admitting that you might be wrong. [Smile]

Ever notice how desperate you and the other liberals here are to switch the focus on to me? You're practically foaming at the mouth to make this about me. [Wink]

What we we glean from your (and most libs here) almost total reliance on this logical fallacy? I'm beginning to think "libtard" is a more accurate term than I ever thought possible ... [Razz]

[ April 03, 2012, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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D.W.
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Is 12 pages a record for G2 seeming to be a voice of calm reason? [Razz]
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Mynnion
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Wayward
quote:
For instance, it is far, far more likely to have happened than you ever admitting that you might be wrong.
Since reports state that the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman it seems unlikely that any self inflicted injuries could have happened after he was brought in.

Of course the fact that they wanted to press charges suggests that there was at least a reasonable question as to Zimmerman's guilt.

Ultimately even if Zimmerman initiated the violence how do you prove that he did not at some point feel his life was in danger giving him the right by FL law to shoot Martin.

Zimmerman may or may not be guilty but if he is proving it will be nearly impossible.

Ultimately the law will be on trial here. There has been a 250% increase in self-defense killings since it became law.

Article

[ April 03, 2012, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Mynnion ]

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D.W.
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Good article. Though it says 200% as a correction to the 250% claim. [Wink]
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Mynnion
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Fresh of the press. Police reveal some information.

web page

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Investigations tend to need to focus on real events. If you want to make up scenarios that are not likely, you might as well halt all investigations due to lack of resources...
How unlikely is it, G2? Where do you draw the line?

I heard a story about a mother accused of beating up her teenage daughter. The State took her to court to take custody of the minor. The mother allowed the court to finish the proceeding, then produced a tape she had surreptiously made showing her daughter throwing herself against the walls in the hallway to make herself look like someone had beat her up. The mother had not revealed the tape until after the ruling because she didn't want to deal with the daughter ever again. I think her last words to the court were, "You wanted her. Now you get to keep her." [Smile]

Admittedly, that is an anecdotal story at best. But I bet I could find a few instances when a person caused injury to themselves to implicate someone else. It is quite possible. And with someone dying at your feet, it is not unreasonable to believe that someone could injure himself if it might get him exonerated.

Do I think he did hurt himself? Probably not. Do I think he did absolutely did not hurt himself? Nope. He definitely could have. Is it worth checking out, examining the extent of the injuries to verify they are as bad as you'd expect? Of course. How much could that possibly cost? [Roll Eyes]

You like to pretend that he could not have possibly manufactured his injuries because it would weaken your belief that Zimmerman is innocent. Open your eyes. The world ain't black and white. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Ever notice how desperate you and the other liberals here are to switch the focus on to me?
The focus stays on the issues. We like to make little snide remarks about you because you are constantly making stupid and snide remarks about your opponents. You poo-poo our ideas, belittle us, say that you are trying to teach us how to think and reason, and call us "libtards" and such. You have no respect for us or our opinions. So of course we are going to make fun of you and belittle you. What can be more fun than making fun of some arrogant know-it-all who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, especially when he isn't?

You keep making this about us. Why shouldn't we return the favor? [Smile]

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AI Wessex
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Good post [Smile]
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Investigations tend to need to focus on real events. If you want to make up scenarios that are not likely, you might as well halt all investigations due to lack of resources...
How unlikely is it, G2? Where do you draw the line?
I'd let the police and prosecutors on the scene decide that. Crazy, I know.


quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Do I think he did hurt himself? Probably not. Do I think he did absolutely did not hurt himself? Nope. He definitely could have. Is it worth checking out, examining the extent of the injuries to verify they are as bad as you'd expect? Of course. How much could that possibly cost? [Roll Eyes]

This is all based on some idea they did not. What makes you believe that's the case?

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
You like to pretend that he could not have possibly manufactured his injuries because it would weaken your belief that Zimmerman is innocent. Open your eyes. The world ain't black and white. [Roll Eyes]

I did not say "could not have possibly manufactured his injuries". When you simply start making things up, when you start lying, maybe you need to take a step back and consider why you feel the need to do so.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Ever notice how desperate you and the other liberals here are to switch the focus on to me?
The focus stays on the issues. We like to make little snide remarks about you because you are constantly making stupid and snide remarks about your opponents. You poo-poo our ideas, belittle us, say that you are trying to teach us how to think and reason, and call us "libtards" and such. You have no respect for us or our opinions. So of course we are going to make fun of you and belittle you. What can be more fun than making fun of some arrogant know-it-all who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, especially when he isn't?

You keep making this about us. Why shouldn't we return the favor? [Smile]

as I've said many times, I go to great pains to mimic your style and tone - I extensively copy and paste it so I get it just right. You and other are you are constantly making stupid and snide remarks (just look upthread and see the drive by comments that had nothing to do with the topic and see the proof of that). I have the same respect for you and your opinions as I do of a petulant child's that is prone to such juvenile acting out as you and the others routinely demonstrate.

Although, I gotta admit the level of focus you guys have on me is flattering. [Wink] Is Al still around? I know he's *still* following me from thread to thread with his moronic attacks despite knowing I've hidden him (hey, I get those emails too) - what does that say about his mental stability? [Wink]

[ April 03, 2012, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Is 12 pages a record for G2 seeming to be a voice of calm reason? [Razz]

It's about the amount they can tolerate a voice of calm reason. [Razz]
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D.W.
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quote:
It's about the amount they can tolerate a voice of calm reason.
At the risk of this being a "drive by". That one made me chuckle.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
There has been a 250% increase in self-defense killings since it became law.

This lends itself to a confusion between correlation and causality. From the article:
quote:
Criminologists are suspicious of sharp increases or decreases within a short time frame, he said.

"I don’t believe anything triples.…Increases that sharp are probably due to some artificial cause like a shift in how people are defining events," Kleck said. "It’s possible nothing actually changed in frequency except police departments increasingly defined homicide claimed to be defensive as a justifiable homicide. … Local police departments are increasingly viewing alleged defensible homicide as falling into the UCR definition. I don’t think they are trying to rig data, they honestly shifted their perceptions of what qualifies."

Bill Eddins, state attorney in Florida’s 1st Circuit and president of the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association, said he couldn’t conclude if there is a correlation between the "stand your ground" law and the increase in justifiable homicides.


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Pete at Home
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quote:
[Pete:] "We KNOW who tweeted out solicitations to murder."

We absolutely do not know any such thing. What we know is that you keep insisting that that is what was intended. You're a lawyer. What about due process?

From what's on the public record, and from what's been publicly admitted, there is sufficient evidence to support an indictment. If their intentions for some reason do not match the solicitation that they clearly issued, then it's up to them to plead insanity or some other excuse of law.

Some of you seem to be arguing racist considerations that would create an actual JUSTIFICATION for these left-wing terrorists, the BP, Lee, and Barr, but no person of conscience or principle could contemplate these arguments with a straight face. Your best bet is an insanity excuse.

[ April 03, 2012, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:

Ultimately even if Zimmerman initiated the violence how do you prove that he did not at some point feel his life was in danger giving him the right by FL law to shoot Martin.

Don't need to prove that. If Zimmerman initiated the violence then Martin had the right to protect himself. That includes possibly knocking him to the ground and even trying to knock him out if he noticed he had a gun. So now you have two people who are attacking the other because they are defending themselves. The finger gets pointed at the guy who threw the first punch, though some would say that the finger should be thrown at the one who was following the other.

BTW. Thanks to all for the comments on my last post. I'd write more but this thread has become too difficult to post anything meaningful on.

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AI Wessex
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An indictment is not a statement of certainty. If it were we'd need a lot fewer lawyers, eh? [Smile]
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Wayward Son
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Just to clarify the called-for indictment, Pete, could you cite a previous case where someone who only posted a private citizen's address was charged with solicitation to murder? (Policemen addresses don't count.)

I still think that reckless endangerment is about as high a charge as could stick.

(This also brings into question who has juridiction to charge these people from different parts of the country.)

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D.W.
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quote:
Don't need to prove that.
Actually I think you might. One posting of the law seemed to indicate you lose the ability to claim self defense if you start the fight. But then later makes the exception that you still retain that ability if you fear for your life. It seems ridiculous but if that’s the way the law is interpreted then you can’t convict or even arrest someone unless you can prove they were not justified in that fear.

quote:
If Zimmerman initiated the violence then Martin had the right to protect himself.
The second part is true. Both parties have the right to protect themselves. Both could argue that they were in fear for their life. The only reason the defense doesn’t work both ways is that one didn’t survive the encounter.

Finger pointing aside the law seems to favor the last man standing. This is something we should be very worried about. Even if it hasn’t been a cause of increased justified civilian shootings it will as it becomes more publicized. If there’s someone more familiar with FL law that can assuage my fears I’d appreciate it. [Frown]

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D.W.
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I don't expect it would stick either. But just bringing the charges may be the warning shot needed to reign people back from the brink.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:

Finger pointing aside the law seems to favor the last man standing. This is something we should be very worried about. Even if it hasn’t been a cause of increased justified civilian shootings it will as it becomes more publicized.

Perhaps, but that is not necessarily true. As it becomes more publicized, it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary.
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AI Wessex
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[AI:] " Cherry, you seem unwilling to accept that the simple fact that Martin is DEAD and that he was doing absolutely nothing wrong beyond walking home in the rain with his hood up are hugely important.

[DW:] If your simple facts that you are absolutely sure of were proven and accepted by the investigators I would comprehend your outrange Al. But the investigation is still ongoing. Your certainty without verification is what some of us are appalled with."

I'm sure that Martin didn't provoke the confrontation. In fact, there seems to be no doubt that Zimmerman instigated the set of circumstances that ultimately led to Martin's death, however they later unfolded.

I bet if you go back over this thread from the beginning you won't find anyone who has spoken up for a complete authorized investigation to determine the full set of facts more often than I have. I've played devil's advocate with anybody who has seemed comfortable that the limited facts presented by Zimmerman are sufficient to mitigate their concern that there may have been a crime or that Martin's death was completely unnecessary. That doesn't mean I can't also have an opinion based on what I've learned in the meantime.

[ April 03, 2012, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Mynnion
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G2-
quote:
As it becomes more publicized, it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary.
That ignores the fact that since this law was signed into law the number of "self defense" shootings has more than doubled. I guess it is possible people are more polite in FL. but you would have to ask someone who lives there.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
G2-
quote:
As it becomes more publicized, it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary.
That ignores the fact that since this law was signed into law the number of "self defense" shootings has more than doubled. I guess it is possible people are more polite in FL. but you would have to ask someone who lives there.
And that ignores the fact that you can't relate the two with current data (the article you posted makes that clear).
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AI Wessex
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[G2:] "Is Al still around? I know he's *still* following me from thread to thread with his moronic attacks despite knowing I've hidden him (hey, I get those emails too) - what does that say about his mental stability?"

Still here, still marveling at your dishonesty and almost pathological adherence to right wing talking points. I'm also not surprised that you read my every word and are frankly too aware of your limited argumentation skills to take me on. Here, I'll throw you a bone: You're a megaphone for the reality-blind.

[DW:] "Finger pointing aside the law seems to favor the last man standing. This is something we should be very worried about."

Exactly. The one with the bigger weapon can claim to be both the victor and the victim.

[G2:] "it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary."

Your thinking is very clear. If I approach you in a threatening manner or suggest by how I hold myself that I have a weapon, then I can expect you will be polite and deferential toward me.

[ April 03, 2012, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Wayward Son
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That is, unless he's packing, too. [Smile]
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AI Wessex
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No worries, he'll use up his ammo shooting himself in the foot.
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Mynnion
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G2-
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mynnion:
G2-

quote: As it becomes more publicized, it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary.

That ignores the fact that since this law was signed into law the number of "self defense" shootings has more than doubled. I guess it is possible people are more polite in FL. but you would have to ask someone who lives there.

And that ignores the fact that you can't relate the two with current data (the article you posted makes that clear).

Actually the article comes to the conclusion that there is a correlation. It stated that experts that were questioned disagreed. I can however guarantee that if I were defending a capital case where it was even a plausible argument I would use it. If you believe that any criminal defense lawyer wouldn't do the same you really are naive.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Investigations tend to need to focus on real events. If you want to make up scenarios that are not likely, you might as well halt all investigations due to lack of resources...
How unlikely is it, G2? Where do you draw the line?[/qb]
I'd let the police and prosecutors on the scene decide that. Crazy, I know.
They wanted to bring charges against Zimmerman the night of, the police chief overruled them.
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D.W.
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quote:
Perhaps, but that is not necessarily true. As it becomes more publicized, it may result is a much more polite society where shootings are no longer necessary.
That's the exact intent I would have for the law. I'm totally for a victimless society. I want criminals scared ****less all the time that some lawful gun owner is going to put them down if they try to mug/rape/assault someone. I just don't want it to be vague enough that someone can exploit it's weakness to do premeditated murder and walk. I think a review should be made to at least insure that is not the case.
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Mynnion
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Actually Phil I think the decision not to charge was made by the State Attorney General's Office.

An interesting question is if you were on a jury and asked to determine whether Zimmerman was guilty what information would it take to convict?

Whether we like the SYG law or not how do you determine if an individual felt his/her life was in danger?

It is also important to note that this was not a GOP law. It received bipartisan support.

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D.W.
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I think it's phrased "reasonably felt" so at least we don't demand psychic ability from our juror pool.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Just to clarify the called-for indictment, Pete, could you cite a previous case where someone who only posted a private citizen's address was charged with solicitation to murder?

I can't think of any examples where a celebrity published the addresses of someone accused of murder, and of their family members, to such widespread groups of their personality cult followers, asking that a message be sent.
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D.W.
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quote:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. - The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

I'd have to reverse your question. I would have to acquit unless I was convinced that Zimmerman was never at risk of death or great bodily harm at any point of the altercation OR that if there was a point where he was at risk he was able to escape. Essentially unless a witness came out and said that is not how things happened and they were credible. Or the story of Zimmerman showed discrepancies with the physical evidence.

For justice to happen I think it matters who threw the first blow. It matters that Zimmerman followed Martin. It matters if martin wanted to teach this nosy guy a lesson or if he was terrified and felt he couldn't flee. It matters if the gun was being wrestled with or not. For conviction or acquittal my reading of the law is that none of these amount to a hell of a lot. And I find that fact quite disturbing.

[ April 03, 2012, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pete at Home
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I agree it matters who threw the first blow, or who committed the first assault, as I discussed above.

But for the PC lefties, it seems to all about skin and gun rights, and fock innocence and guilt beyond politics.

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Mynnion
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Thanks D.W. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. That is the issue with this law. Basically I would find it nearly impossible short of overwhelming evidence to convict any killer who used this defense.

"I was attacked and I feared for my life." With no witnesses how can you ever prove otherwise?

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D.W.
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Reasonably feared for my life. It could be a linebacker vs. Steven Hawkins after all.
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AI Wessex
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It would be logical if Hawking won, however.
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D.W.
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He's probably smart enough to have a weapon built into that chair. You're right.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
Actually Phil I think the decision not to charge was made by the State Attorney General's Office.

What they were reporting a couple of days ago was that the police chief overruled a detective on the night of the killing. What they are reporting now is that the police chief met with the State Attorney on the night of the killing and that the detective who wanted to make an arrest that night was overruled.

Either way, a detective wanted to make an arrest that night and was overruled.

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D.W.
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It's possible that the chief knew the law better than the detective.
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AI Wessex
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Far more is possible than is known. Zimmerman will probably be indicted, tried and acquitted. The SYG law is a mess.
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