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Author Topic: Martin and Zimmerman
TomDavidson
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quote:
There is no room or allowance for sensitivity when an innocent man's life is on the line.
Why not?
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AI Wessex
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"There is no room or allowance for sensitivity when an innocent man's life is on the line."

Yeah, sure. Bring the grieving father in and nail 'im if he wasn't thinking totally logically when you tell him his son was killed the day before only 70 yards from his home, and they just got around to telling him about it after letting him worry all night.

Yeah, sure.

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TomDavidson
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It seems to me that even if you're unwilling to allow for sensitivity when a man's life is on the line, you might want to allow for sensitivity when deciding to try someone for perjury after the fate of that man has been decided.
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Aris Katsaris
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As long as we can enable the next perjurer down the line, any justification for lenience will do.

Perjurers should learn that there are no consequences for lying under oath if it can be considered 'insensitive' to prosecute them.

[ July 10, 2013, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
As long as we can enable the next perjurer down the line, any justification for lenience will do.

Perjurers should learn that there are no consequences for lying under oath if it can be considered 'insensitive' to prosecute them.

This "sensitivity nonsense is hilarious."

The trial is happening a LONG time after the death of Trayvon. Tracy Martin had every opportunity to state, under oath on the stand, that he was mistaken and emotionally distraught when he flatly denied to police it was his son's voice. Instead he is choosing to coldly, calmly and in a very calculating manner lie to the jury and to the court.

Any why is he perjuring himself? Not even for his own benefit, out of a selfish, vengeful desire to ruin another man's life by bearing false witness against him. Zimmerman is harmed by Tracy Martin's perjury, Tracy Martin should serve the maximum sentence for this.

[ July 10, 2013, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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PSRT
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quote:
As long as we can enable the next perjurer down the line, any justification for lenience will do.

Perjurers should learn that there are no consequences for lying under oath if it can be considered 'insensitive' to prosecute them

I doubt you could find a prosecutor with jurisdiction and the authority to start prosecution to call that perjury. You can definitely get biased idiots on internet forums to call it perjury, and political grand standers, but that's probably about it.

[ July 10, 2013, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Instead he is choosing to coldly, calmly and in a very calculating manner lie to the jury...
Yeah, he's an evil mastermind, really.
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AI Wessex
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"I doubt you could find a prosecutor with jurisdiction and the authority to start prosecution to call that perjury. You can definitely get biased idiots on internet forums to call it perjury, and political grand standers, but that's probably about it."

I was going to respond to Aris directly, but I would have said pretty much the same thing as you did. Perjury is rarely charged and tried, *especially* against a family member who is under emotional stress when giving a statement. Nor is his clarification on the witness stand at the trial subject to perjury, since it's his recollection of his thoughts that is being attacked. You really want to go there? You think that's a high-minded thing to even consider?

One more thing; you would *never* get a conviction, and in fact would only accomplish the direct opposite of what Seneca wants, which is proving that there really is a bias at work here.

But if you think that makes sense, let's get Zimmerman on the stand and get him to tell which of his conflicting statements is the real truth. And then we can try him for perjury for not picking the other one.

[ July 10, 2013, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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djquag1
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I'm on the fence as to whether Tracy Martin deserves to face perjury charges or not, and I definitely think he wouldn't be convicted on them, based upon average human sympathy factors alone.

But Seneca and Aris do have a point here. It's perfectly understandable to claim that being emotionally distraught led you to claim that the voice wasn't your son's, even if later, with a clear head, you come to believe that it was.

The question is why is it excuseable to, instead of just saying that, (which is exactly what Trayvon Martin's brother did), to claim that no, you never ever said that the voice wasn't your son's. That's a flat out lie, and it's a lie told during a trial for a man's life. It's not at all hard to imagine that the lie was told out of (understandable) vindictiveness. I'm not comfortable with people who shade the truth and tell lies in a courtroom during a trial just getting a free pass.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Instead he is choosing to coldly, calmly and in a very calculating manner lie to the jury...
Yeah, he's an evil mastermind, really.
Lies only matter if one is an evil mastermind? Curious philosophy sir.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/10/zimmerman-defense-winding-down-case-wednesday/

After Guy wrapped up his round of questioning, lead defense attorney Mark O'Mara stepped up.

"May I use your doll?" asked O'Mara.

O'Mara straddled the dummy on the floor in front of the witness stand, grabbed it by the shoulders and drove its head into the floor repeatedly.

"Would the injuries on Mr. Zimmerman, the back of his head, be consistent with someone doing this on cement?" asked O'Mara as he slammed the flopping mannequin's head into the floor.

"I don't think so," replied Root.

"How about this?" asked O'Mara, continuing to bash the life-sized dummy against the floor, but placing its arm against his shoulder, as if it were resisting. "How about someone resisting the attack? Could that have come from if someone was resisting me pushing down like this?"

Root responded, "I believe so."

Earlier in his testimony, Root described how Zimmerman would be no match for the 17-year-old Martin in a fight.

"Mr. Martin was a physically active and capable person," said Root, who probed both Martin's and Zimmerman's physical conditioning and fighting prowess on behalf of the defense team. "Mr. Zimmerman is an individual who is by no stretch of the imagination an athlete, and ... he would find himself lacking when compared to Mr. Martin."

Root’s testimony jibed with prior defense witnesses who have testified that the neighborhood watch volunteer was overweight, in poor shape and not good with his fists. Root said screams heard on a 911 call, which the defense claims are Zimmerman, show "a high level of stress, a high level of fear."

In previous testimony on Monday, Adam Pollock, owner of a kickboxing gym where Zimmerman trained prior to the incident, said Zimmerman was "grossly obese," and not athletic at all.

"He came to the gym to lose weight and get in shape," Pollock said.

When defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked him to rate Zimmerman's athletic ability on a scale of one to 10 when he began training, Pollock replied, "Point-five."


Well that was most enlightening. Another arrow to the heart of the prosecution. Facts are adding up.

[ July 10, 2013, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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For anyone here to claim that it's not the truth requires that you be able to put yourself in his place at that traumatic and emotional moment. I don't *know* if he lied, but neither do you. By insisting he did under those circumstances is demeaning to him and to yourselves.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
For anyone here to claim that it's not the truth requires that you be able to put yourself in his place at that traumatic and emotional moment. I don't *know* if he lied, but neither do you. By insisting he did under those circumstances is demeaning to him and to yourselves.

[DOH]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Lies only matter if one is an evil mastermind?
That's not what I said, of course. I was mocking the idea that Trayvon Martin's father was "coldly, calmly and in a very calculating manner" lying about hearing the screams of his son before he died, because he just wanted to screw over a random stranger that much.

--------

As a side note, may I say how incredibly cynical I find Zimmerman's decision to gain 100 pounds after being arrested, just so his defense could make the -- thoroughly predictable -- argument that he was simply too fat to defend himself effectively?

[ July 10, 2013, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Seneca
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quote:
The question is why is it excuseable to, instead of just saying that, (which is exactly what Trayvon Martin's brother did), to claim that no, you never ever said that the voice wasn't your son's. That's a flat out lie, and it's a lie told during a trial for a man's life. It's not at all hard to imagine that the lie was told out of (understandable) vindictiveness. I'm not comfortable with people who shade the truth and tell lies in a courtroom during a trial just getting a free pass.
Exactly.
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AI Wessex
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"When defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked him to rate Zimmerman's athletic ability on a scale of one to 10 when he began training, Pollock replied, "Point-five.""

What was his ability at the time of the fight? He weighed about 195 pounds, which was far from "grossly obese". He's gained about 120 pounds since then, and could perhaps be called grossly obese now, but that's still just a subjective description.
quote:
At the time of his arrest, George Zimmerman weighed about 195 pounds according to police records. His height about 5'8, his weight was average for a man of his size. But in recent trial footage, it is apparent that Zimmerman has put on a considerable amount of pounds. During interviews, his lawyers have claimed that the additional weight gain is due to "stress."

"He's gained an enormous amount of weight. Over 120, 125 pounds I believe. I think because he is sitting in a house stressed trying to deal with the moniker that's been put on him that he's the most hated man in America for taking the life of somebody when he really feels that he didn't need to," Mark O'Mara said during a CNN interview.

How is 195 pounds grossly obese? Did you look at the pictures of him doing the reenactment? I doubt he even weighed that much.

Come clean, you're just shilling for Zimmerman because you'll say anything to get him off.

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djquag1
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If you're five foot eight and weigh 195, you're pretty close to being grossly obese.

I mean, I'm four inches taller and weigh fifteen pounds less, and still have a bit of a gut.

[ July 10, 2013, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
For anyone here to claim that it's not the truth requires that you be able to put yourself in his place at that traumatic and emotional moment. I don't *know* if he lied, but neither do you. By insisting he did under those circumstances is demeaning to him and to yourselves.

AI, the problem here has nothing to do with how Tracy Martin's father felt at the time he first heard the tape. It's his conduct while sworn under oath to tell the truth that is the problem.

There's nothing wrong with being in denial when you first hear a tape like that, and then later changing your mind. What is wrong is claiming that you never made the denial in the first place, instead of just explaining why you changed your mind. It comes off as Martin's father delibrately lying to make Zimmerman look as guilty as possible. Do you have an alternate explanation?

[ July 10, 2013, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
For anyone here to claim that it's not the truth requires that you be able to put yourself in his place at that traumatic and emotional moment. I don't *know* if he lied, but neither do you. By insisting he did under those circumstances is demeaning to him and to yourselves.

AI, the problem here has nothing to do with how Tracy Martin's father felt at the time he first heard the tape. It's his conduct while sworn under oath to tell the truth that is the problem.

There's nothing wrong with being in denial when you first hear a tape like that, and then later changing your mind. What is wrong is claiming that you never made the denial in the first place, instead of just explaining why you changed your mind. It comes off as Martin's father delibrately lying to make Zimmerman look as guilty as possible. Do you have an alternate explanation?

There is no other explanation. Tracy Martin is contradicted by 3 police officers, two of which gave sworn testimony to the contrary.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
There is no other explanation. Tracy Martin is contradicted by 3 police officers
It's nice that you trust the police so much. Although I must admit that this comes as a surprise to me.

[ July 10, 2013, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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AI Wessex
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"If you're five foot eight and weigh 195, you're pretty close to being grossly obese.

I mean, I'm four inches taller and weigh fifteen pounds less, and still have a bit of a gut."

I'm 5'9" and weigh 195. I'd like to lose 10-15 lbs, but when I asked my doctor he said I was "slightly overweight", as did the gym I go to when they set up my fitness profile. I'm not fat, but have a pot. "Grossly obese" is something else altogether.

"AI, the problem here has nothing to do with how Tracy Martin's father felt at the time he first heard the tape. It's his conduct while sworn under oath to tell the truth that is the problem.

There's nothing wrong with being in denial when you first hear a tape like that, and then later changing your mind. What is wrong is claiming that you never made the denial in the first place, instead of just explaining why you changed your mind. It comes off as Martin's father delibrately lying to make Zimmerman look as guilty as possible. Do you have an alternate explanation?"

Martin's father said he didn't deny it, and two officers said he did. Have at it, then. Arrest him and try him for perjury and you'll see more than howls of protest.

DJ, I don't lump you in with the likes of Seneca (and to some extent Aris) on this issue. Seneca in particular is willing to completely overlook and misconstrue anything that might mitigate Zimmerman's claims. Note that he hasn't responded to the rebuttal that Zimmerman was far from "grossly obese" on the night of the attack. Look at the police pictures and the reenactment video yourself and then honestly tell us if you're looking at someone who could fit that description.

I don't expect it from Seneca and am disappointed not to hear anything on that from Aris.

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TomDavidson
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5'8" and 195 lbs. is "overweight," and just shy of "obese" -- depending on waist size, of course; that determination isn't just a factor of height and weight, and how much muscle you have on you matters quite a bit. It's a hundred pounds shy of "morbidly obese," which is where he is now.

It's worth noting that Zimmerman's gym is actually advertising his workout routine -- using his name and everything -- as something that'll turn you from a schlub to a scrapper.

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djquag1
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I stand corrected on the obesity issue.

Hmm. So it's his word against the cops. I think it's a shame they weren't recording at the time, but it is what it is. I'm not inclined to take cops at their word, but I'm a little confused as to the supposed motivation of the cops, here. It's easy to think up motivation for Tracy Martin lying. It's less easy to think up motivation for the cops to lie on the matter.

Oh, and one last point. How loud people howl has very little to do with justice. If we don't prosecute people because of said howling, that says more about being pragmatic then whether the prosecution in question is an injustice.

Okay, I lied, one more thing. To save confusion between myself and DarkJello, perhaps if people are going to refer to me shorthand, they can do it as Quag? And DarkJello can be DJ.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It's less easy to think up motivation for the cops to lie on the matter.
Remember, from the very beginning of this incident, the local police have been trying to shove this one under the rug. They didn't even want to do an investigation. I have no doubt that most of the cops involved were squarely in Zimmerman's camp.
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AI Wessex
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Quag: "I'm not inclined to take cops at their word, but I'm a little confused as to the supposed motivation of the cops, here. It's easy to think up motivation for Tracy Martin lying. It's less easy to think up motivation for the cops to lie on the matter."

I'm not assuming the cops are lying, either. They interpreted what they heard in a certain way, and probably wanted a conclusive interpretation and so picked the one that they thought worked. That doesn't make them right and Martin's father wrong, and more importantly doesn't make them telling the truth and Martin's father lying.

Tom: "Remember, from the very beginning of this incident, the local police have been trying to shove this one under the rug. They didn't even want to do an investigation. I have no doubt that most of the cops involved were squarely in Zimmerman's camp."

Their police chief got fired for it and the state put a special prosecutor on the case because they couldn't trust the locals to do it in a way that wouldn't be perceived as prejudiced. Interesting that those who have been *convinced* of Zimmerman's innocence from day one see the actions of the special prosecutor and the trial itself to be evidence of political interference, when I think it was done to help ensure that there would be no taint on the final outcome.

So I'll say again, if this trial ends up with an acquittal, I'm done thinking about how Martin died. I'm done if he's convicted of manslaughter, too. The political and social ramifications will go on for a long time, no matter what the verdict.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
5'8" and 195 lbs. is "overweight," and just shy of "obese" -- depending on waist size, of course; that determination isn't just a factor of height and weight, and how much muscle you have on you matters quite a bit. It's a hundred pounds shy of "morbidly obese," which is where he is now.

It's worth noting that Zimmerman's gym is actually advertising his workout routine -- using his name and everything -- as something that'll turn you from a schlub to a scrapper.

[Frown]
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DarkJello
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5'8" and 195# gives a BMI of 29.6, which is practically obese. This is AFTER all kinds of training. So yeah, he was solidly obese BEFORE the training started and was 2 pounds shy of a BMI of 30.0 at the time of the incident. He would have looked "normal" only because of our diabesity epidemic.

5'9" and 195# gives a BMI of 28.8, which is solidly overweight. Again, what is declared as "normal" has slid upwards thanks to delicious yummies.

My BMI is 28.1, so right there with you guys. I love me some soda!!!

Mr. Martin did lie. Or 3 cops lied. One or the other.

[ July 10, 2013, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
It seems to me that even if you're unwilling to allow for sensitivity when a man's life is on the line, you might want to allow for sensitivity when deciding to try someone for perjury after the fate of that man has been decided.

Am I misunderstanding, or did you just suggest that a false accusation against a criminal defendant is LESS morally repugnant than a false statement in defense of a criminal defendant? That would be prosecutor logic at its most horrific.

[ July 10, 2013, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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LetterRip
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Is there an actual recording of what he stated? While the female officer seems certain, the male officer seemed to suggest there was room for other interpretations.

Also eyewitness testimony and recall is absolutely crap for this sort of thing. Any or all three could be remembering things completely differently and exactly as they testified and be wrong as to what happened. Our brains rewrite our memories when we access them based on new information. So people remember things that never happened and forget things that actually happened.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
did you just suggest that a false accusation against a criminal defendant is LESS morally repugnant than a false statement in defense of a criminal defendant?
Nope.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Also eyewitness testimony and recall is absolutely crap for this sort of thing. Any or all three could be remembering things completely differently and exactly as they testified and be wrong as to what happened. Our brains rewrite our memories when we access them based on new information. So people remember things that never happened and forget things that actually happened.

This is a perfect example of why reasonable doubt is the standard for acquittal. I agree to the max.
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AI Wessex
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And why this trial was necessary.
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DarkJello
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Another victim of the hyper-racial powers that be:

The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked "in a number of ways" by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.
Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial, told CNN's George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public rather than as a matter of justice.
"It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didn't care if it got dismissed later," he said. "You don't do that."

...Lee took issue with the media casting his department as apathetic or lackadaisical in the case.
"A lot of the information that was given out as fact was misinformation," he said. "It was reported in some media that we didn't conduct an investigation for two weeks, but yet in that same media they would show a photograph of a crime scene with crime scene tape, with patrol cars and blue lights and investigators on the scene."

...One of his greatest regrets, he said, is that the Zimmerman investigation ultimately shattered his childhood dream to be police chief of the community where he was raised.
"It's a dream of a vision that is going to be unrealized," he said. "I'm at peace with it on most days. I'm a man of faith. But it stings."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/sanford-bill-lee-exclusive/index.html


And then over here a "simple" article of a mostly delusional person:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/opinion/jones-zimmerman-trial/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

[ July 11, 2013, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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You don't detect at least a bit of a self-serving purpose in Lee's remarks? The circumstances around his leaving his position are a little confusing:
quote:
Lee took a leave of absence in March and offered his resignation in April. The city council rejected Lee's resignation by a 3-2 vote. Several council members indicated they wanted to let a Department of Justice review of the police investigation play out before making a final decision.
Would they have asked for his resignation (aka fired him) and then rejected it? He wasn't actually fired for another two months. My take is that the initial investigation was sloppy and poorly handled. That does come back to the CoP, and somebody had to take the fall given the high profile the case had in the news.

Jones' remarks go further than I think is justified, but I wouldn't call them delusional.

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AI Wessex
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Can anyone address the problem with Zimmerman's obesity and relatively poor physical/fighting condition at the time of the confrontation with Martin and defend the quality of the testimony about that?

Here are some additional comments to consider:

1. Zimmerman began working with Pollack in 2010. He lost about 50-60 pounds during that time. When he and Martin met up, Zimmerman weighed about 195 pounds and Martin weighed about 158.

2. Pollack's training is in martial arts. The purpose is to train people to be weapons. He now advertises the training methods he used to teach Zimmerman so that new students can learn to be fighters like George.

And just for color since people seem interested in the truthfulness and trustworthiness of everyone on this issue,

3. Pollack testified on Monday in the Zimmerman trial and was himself due in court on Tuesday to enter a plea on a charge of threatening to cut off the fingers and toes of a woman who allegedly defrauded him in a ponzi scheme.

[ July 11, 2013, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Seneca
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/11/closing-arguments-to-begin-in-zimmerman-trial/

Some great arguments in the closing here about why manslaughter and other lesser charges do not apply:

quote:
Zimmerman’s lead attorney, Mark O’Mara, told reporters Wednesday after resting his case that the jury’s only option should be the second-degree murder charge brought by prosecutors. If jurors are unable to convict Zimmerman or murder, then he should be acquitted, O’Mara said, because the shooting on Feb. 26, 2012 was intentional.
“What George did was an intentional act that he knew he was pulling the trigger, the reason why he did it was self defense and that doesn’t suggest the manslaughter charge would be appropriate,” O’Mara said.


The prosecution also attempted another long-ball Hail Mary charge, felony murder via child abuse. Totally absurd as I'm sure the prosecutors have, at some point in their career, been involved with cases where the state charged a 17 year old as an adult. They are simply throwing stuff at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. A completely irresponsible political abuse of our justice system.

[ July 11, 2013, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Can anyone address the problem with Zimmerman's obesity and relatively poor physical/fighting condition at the time of the confrontation with Martin and defend the quality of the testimony about that?
quote:
am disappointed not to hear anything on that from Aris.
I'm not a medical expert, Al, and have no knowledge of what qualifies as 'obese', or what range of weights are likely to indicate physical fighting shape. At this point it seems to me that your support of the prosecution has devolved into trying to dissect boring trivialities.

Wouldn't it be more interesting for *you* to comment on on how Trayvon Martin had texted that he wanted to make another kid bleed some more because the amount that kid had already bled wasn't enough for Martin?

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:


Wouldn't it be more interesting for *you* to comment on on how Trayvon Martin had texted that he wanted to make another kid bleed some more because the amount that kid had already bled wasn't enough for Martin?

I found it absurd that the judge allowed the jury to hear about college courses Zimmerman had taken years before, and yet recent texts from Martin's phone showing his obsession for violence and beating people were disallowed.

There have been so many dumb decisions in this trial that if Zimmerman gets convicted it will most likely be thrown out on appeal when a more sober court takes a look at everything.

[ July 11, 2013, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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AI Wessex
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Aris: "Wouldn't it be more interesting for *you* to comment on on how Trayvon Martin had texted that he wanted to make another kid bleed some more because the amount that kid had already bled wasn't enough for Martin?"

Is that somehow germane to this case?

I don't know anything about that, but I'll look into it if you'll agree to comment on the multiple cases of violence that Zimmerman was involved in over the years, and whether his martial arts training and "bad attitude" on the night he killed Martin have any weight.

Seneca: "There have been so many dumb decisions in this trial that if Zimmerman gets convicted it will most likely be thrown out on appeal when a more sober court takes a look at everything."

And if it comes to that point and the Appeals Court *still* doesn't see the plain reality staring them in the face, will it finally be time for you and other freedom lovers to take matters into your own hands?

Seneca, FWIW, isn't O'Mara an advocate for the defense? Hasn't he already misrepresented a video he presented on FOX in an attempt to sway public opinion against Martin?

[ July 11, 2013, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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G3
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So Zimmerman is now charged with 3rd degree murder. But, if I have this right, a third degree murder charge can only be had if a homicide occurs in the course of committing another felony. So, the prosecution has also charged Zimmerman with aggravated child abuse. No word yet on what kind of aggravated child abuse Zimmerman committed ... following for 5 minutes?

Z's lawyers:
quote:
Don West called the proposed instruction "a trick," and he accused the prosecutor of springing it on the defense at the last minute.
"Just when I didn't think this case could get any more bizarre, the state is alleging child abuse?" West said. "This is outrageous. It's outrageous the state would seek to do this at this time."

Judge Debra Nelson says she will rule on the proposal later.

Is it fair to spring a charge on a defendant after the trial has concluded which the defense was never able to argue against because they didn't even know it was being charged?

My theory of all this being a sham designed to placate race baiters and tank the prosecution seems to hold up because this sounds totally like grounds for a appeal being laid out just in case.

Oh, by the way ... did anyone know that the Dept of Justice, through their heir Community Relations Service unit, spent some time and money participating in the pro-Trayvon protests in the spring of 2012?

[ July 11, 2013, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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AI Wessex
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"Is it fair to spring a charge on a defendant after the trial has concluded which the defense was never able to argue against because they didn't even know it was being charged?

My theory of all this being a sham designed to placate race baiters and tank the prosecution seems to hold up because this sounds totally like grounds for a appeal being laid out just in case."

The new charge is a technical ploy, but I agree that it seems a little odd at this late date.

If you didn't suspect this all of being a sham put on by some group you despise I seriously would doubt that you were posting on this at all.

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