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Author Topic: Martin and Zimmerman
djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Let me be more direct:

I think the jury is hearing and seeing things much more clearly than we are. I will accept their verdict as their best and most fair assessment of the evidence presented by both sides in the case that they can render. I also think the judge has been fair and impartial. I will accept the outcome whichever way it goes.

Do you:

1. Believe the jury will render what they believe is a fair and impartial verdict?

2. Think the judge has been fair and impartial?

3. Plan to accept the jury's verdict whatever it is?

I'd like it if people would respond before the case goes to the jury so that we can gauge sentiment before they come back with a verdict you wanted or didn't want.

1) I think that's probable, but not certain. The jurors have been sequestered, but before the trial they saw all of the same media BS that the rest of us did. A lot of the media very clearly thought Zimmerman was guilty and slanted their coverage towards showing that. Of the news sources that didn't, the only one I can think of that was biased towards Zimmerman's side was Fox. That being said, the modern world is what it is, pathetic media and journalists included, and a jury trial is still the best and most impartial way to go about things.

2) I think the judge has been incompetent. She's made bizarre rulings, some of which helped the prosecution, some of which helped the defense. She's not going to come off looking very good if there are appeals. On the whole, though, I don't think you could say that she's been biased.

3) If Zimmerman is found guilty, I'd accept that calmly. I'd also be even more convinced then I am now that courts don't always provide justice. But then again, if anyone didn't know that already, OJ Simpson says hello.

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AI Wessex
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Nicely done. You dismissed the entire legal process as incompetent, biased and not up to doing its job, but you'll accept the verdict. [Smile]
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djquag1
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Incompetent - I said this particular judge is showing incompetence, not the system itself.

Bias - I said media coverage seen before the trial by the jurors could have biased them. You disagree with that?

Doing it's job - I said it doesn't always do it's job. Do you disagree with that? I also said that much like democracy, it's the best system that we know of.

As for accepting the verdict, honestly, what other option is there?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Nicely done. You dismissed the entire legal process as incompetent, biased and not up to doing its job, but you'll accept the verdict. [Smile]

I think that the Supreme Court makes a stronger argument for the same premise, when it held in 2004 that the Sixth Amendment does not guarantee a criminal defendant the right to a SOBER jury.
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PSRT
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quote:
ou dismissed the entire legal process as incompetent, biased and not up to doing its job,
Of course it is.
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AI Wessex
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"As for accepting the verdict, honestly, what other option is there?"

You could be a real American and go after the anti-Freedom people who put this sham trial on to appease the black folk. Let's hope there is another option.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Gangsta is pretty close to the word 'cool', or 'hip' from previous generations. Other words of equivalent meaning 'balla'/'baller', 'playa'/'player' It has zero connotations of being a gang banger.

LMBO! "Gang"sta and "gang" banger have "zero" relationship... LMBO!

The ONLY people I know that call themselves "gangstas" are people--whites, blacks, latinos--that are into drugs, wild parties, collecting STDs, and the like. Zero connotation my backside!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe Martin would have been better off behind locked doors, weapon in hand, with police on the way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you believe that this 17-year-old black boy, still slightly high on pot, should have thought the smart option would be to barricade himself inside his house, obtain a weapon, and call the police?

I'm just putting this out there so you can understand why that probably would not have occurred to him.


I appreciate that your comments finally, finally, finally admit that Martin made some poor decisions.

[ July 11, 2013, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It's pretty clear what's going on here, this trial has highlighted the extreme racism that goes on in America....
The N word makes someone lose their livelihood even if it was said 30+ years ago.

Dear lord, Seneca, you are a walking example of the problems with white privilege. And the scary thing is that I honestly believe you're so dismissive of the term "white privilege" that you'll write the whole thing off the instant I mention it; to your core, you reject the possibility.

Like, just as an example, you think the whole Paula Deen thing was about her using the word "nigger" 30 years ago -- because that fits the narrative of persecution against white people that you think is happening. Of course, that's not the case at all, and even a little research into the topic will reveal what was actually problematic about her situation. But you haven't bothered to do that research; you're completely comfortable with what's been spoon-fed to you, and that suits you -- sitting in your position as a white guy in a country that systematically rewards being a white guy -- just fine. You don't see white-on-black racism because you don't see any need to go looking for it; what gets your goat is those few times when it looks like a white person is inconvenienced, because those strike closer to home and get some press.

I'll take a moment to respond here, though I'd usually let this pass as I've decided it's best to ignore you. It's clear that you behave as badly as you want to with no restraint: insulting others, accusing them of conspiracy to commit murder, calling them racially privileged, etc.

Here's a shocker for you. I am not white.

I am half Japanese, a quarter black and a quarter Ashkenazi Polish Jew. My father was interned illegally by the American government despite his being born here. My mother's great-grandmother was a slave in Alabama. My mother's father emigrated from Poland before the rest of our family was rounded up and slaughtered there.

You continue to embarrass yourself with your absurd statements that are pulled out of thin air with no basis in fact.

I have lived real discrimination in my youth, and I can tell you, for the most part it has mostly disappeared from modern America to be replaced by reverse discrimination which is now deemed "politically correct."

MLK did not want "protected classes." He wanted true equality.

But hey, don't let reality blind you to your agenda.

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AI Wessex
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"So you believe that this 17-year-old black boy, still slightly high on pot..."

Another good bit of prejudiced thinking. There's absolutely no proof that he was high on pot.

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Seneca
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Regarding the judge's crazy behavior, I recommend anyone interested in this aspect of the trial listen to today's Mark levin radio show.

http://www.marklevinshow.com/

He is a lawyer himself, and he had a former federal Prosecutor, Andy McCarthy on, to talk about the finer points of jurisprudence and procedure and the myriad ways this judge has screwed up including:

-refusing to allow defense to get the rationale for their objections on record in an attempt to skew judgment later by an appeals court looking at court recorder transcripts

-interrogating the defendant and bypassing their counsel before the defense has rested on whether the defendant will testify

-overruling objections before she knows what the objections are even BEFORE rationale is attempted to be given

-chastising defense objections for the prosecution's attempt to introduce new charges in the closing arguments

etc etc etc

This judge, frankly, should be disbarred as a lawyer and should be removed. You almost have to wonder if the judge is purposefully doing all this to force a mistrial or re-trial because the prosecution did such a crappy job.

[ July 11, 2013, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Nicely done. You dismissed the entire legal process as incompetent, biased and not up to doing its job, but you'll accept the verdict. [Smile]

This is the crux of the problem right here. That is NOT what he said. Pizza and soda!! [DOH]

quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"So you believe that this 17-year-old black boy, still slightly high on pot..."

Another good bit of prejudiced thinking. There's absolutely no proof that he was high on pot.

This is quite funny. Would read again. TomDavidson said that, not me. Consistency done fouled you up...

[ July 11, 2013, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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Mark Levin should be shut up in a loony bin. Just sayin' the man is as certified crazy as a paranoid loon. If he thinks the judge is prejudiced and acting inappropriately I think that helps to reassure the rest of us that she's probably acting correctly.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Mark Levin should be shut up in a loony bin. Just sayin' the man is as certified crazy as a paranoid loon. If he thinks the judge is prejudiced and acting inappropriately I think that helps to reassure the rest of us that she's probably acting correctly.

Obama et al wish they were half as wise as Levin. They are a pale flicker of light to his beaming brilliance.
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LetterRip
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DarkJello,

quote:
LMBO! "Gang"sta and "gang" banger have "zero" relationship... LMBO!
If you hear a teen use it to describe themselves or something else, there is little likelihood that it is meant to convey the individual is a gangbanger or otherwise violent. Just as if I call something 'hot' - unless the very specific context is clear that the object produces heat, I'm likely not declaring something about its temperature.

The most likely interpretation of a teen calling something gangsta is 'cool' without any gangbanger interpretation.

If we were in the early 1980's then 'gangsta' could be safely interpreted to have that meaning. In 2013 with the word used by a teen, a gangbanger interpretation is highly unlikely without specific gangbanger context.

Seneca,

quote:
I have lived real discrimination in my youth, and I can tell you, for the most part it has mostly disappeared from modern America to be replaced by reverse discrimination which is now deemed "politically correct."
No it hasn't 'largely disappeared'. Some states and cities have very little prejudice, others have extremely high prejudice. A pastor from my church did a tour of US capitals and was shocked by how frequently she observed blatant racism in the majority of state capitals.
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DarkJello
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There would be a LOT less racism if the race pimps were dethroned. JJ and Sharpton come to mind. Obama has made hyper-racial remarks to score political points.

@LetterRip:

If I have almost exclusively heard the word "gangsta" used by shady types to describe other shady types, what other conclusion should I draw? That is how I have heard the word used. Martin appears to have been a hoodlum to me. And that means what it sounds like it means.

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AI Wessex
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"This is quite funny. Would read again. TomDavidson said that, not me. Consistency done fouled you up..."

I'm beginning to wonder about youse all.

DJ: "Obama et al wish they were half as wise as Levin. They are a pale flicker of light to his beaming brilliance."

So you think Obama is an inflitrator from the Muslim Brotherhood? Be honest, now. Mark is sure of it.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Here's a shocker for you. I am not white.
It's not actually shocking to me; I knew you were half-Japanese and a bit Polish. I didn't know your mother was black, though, and that does come as a small surprise. Do you think she'd agree with you that racism is no longer a problem in America?

I'm curious, though: what discrimination did you personally experience in your youth? I'd be interested in hearing how that shaped your belief that we've stamped out racism over the last few decades.

--------------

quote:
There would be a LOT less racism if the race pimps were dethroned.
I hear a lot of people say that they wouldn't have any problems with black people and gays and whatnots in general if they didn't keep making demands and being all pushy about, y'know, wanting basic rights and privileges.

To be fair, yes, there are some bad apples out there who make it hard to sympathize. But that's part of why the whole "privilege" thing is so important: can you imagine if, when called upon to form a mental image of a white politician, even white people could only come up with Richard Nixon? The fewer representatives you have, the narrower people will perceive your perspective as being -- and the more vulnerable you are to flaws in those representatives.

[ July 11, 2013, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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DarkJello
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Originally posted by AI Wessex:

Do you:

1. Believe the jury will render what they believe is a fair and impartial verdict?

2. Think the judge has been fair and impartial?

3. Plan to accept the jury's verdict whatever it is?
------------------------------------------------------------

#1) I believe that the jury probably will deliver what they believe to be a fair verdict.

#2) I think the judge should stop using the magic 8 ball.

#3) I won't accept the verdict "whatever it is", just like I don't accept laws just because they were passed.

I decline to comment on your opinions from that same post, as it would not be helpful.


@Seneca in r/t TomDavidson's query:

Instead of "white guilt" they probs think you have a slightly less common version known as "half japanese, quarter black, & quarter Ashkenazi Polish guilt" so your point is 100% refuted. How does it feel to get owned so hard by the "progressives" that are leading America to great success? Good, amirite? [Wink]

[ July 12, 2013, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
DJ: "Obama et al wish they were half as wise as Levin. They are a pale flicker of light to his beaming brilliance."

So you think Obama is an inflitrator from the Muslim Brotherhood? Be honest, now. Mark is sure of it.

How did you get that inference out of my comment? [Confused]

I have no idea if Obama is a MB infiltrator. Why would I waste time pursuing that angle when Mr. Obama is systematically demolishing our constitutional republic? He and his cohorts are trashing America's economy at record speed. His socialist pipedream is being realized. He is a divider of epicsauce proportions, and a politician's politician if ever one lived. Kudos and such on all the nifty progress towards oblivion. Haters gonna hate, but I calls it like I see it. Oh, and have a great weekend! Enjoy life while you can, cause it is a flash in the pan. (That is a groovy maxim).

Toodles,

Overlord of Gelatin


Edit:

It won't let me edit the prior post now. I meant to type:

"half japanese, quarter black, & quarter Ashkenazi Polish privilege"

[ July 12, 2013, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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LetterRip
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DarkJello,

quote:
If I have almost exclusively heard the word "gangsta" used by shady types to describe other shady types, what other conclusion should I draw?
That you have very limited exposure to young people, especially those from poorer urban areas. Also that you probably have an overly broad definition of shady.

quote:
That is how I have heard the word used. Martin appears to have been a hoodlum to me. And that means what it sounds like it means.
He seems a typical teen to me. Have you known any significant numbers of actual hoodlums - individuals who have committed serious crimes etc.?

Personally, I think most individuals have prejudged the case, and it makes it easier to judge it as a 'self defense' if you can cast Martin as an evil thug out doing no good. Similarly it makes it easier to condemn Zimmerman if you cast him as a vigilante racist. We have this predisposition to not allow shades of gray. Thus you can't have Zimmerman as someone who is probably a mostly ok guy who made a few questionable choices that led to the death of an innocent young man.

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DarkJello
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LetterRip:

Some fair points for sure. I have gobs and gobs of exposure to kids and teens, being a medical provider and all. It is a rural area, but not sure if that cancels out my experiences. My definition of shady is broad, no doubt. Lots of stuff considered "normal" is total crap to me, since it ruins lives and causes so much depression etc.

Agree on the prejudge comment. The facts sure have not changed my opinion though. But I am fallible just like everyone else.

The entire altercation is beyond unfortunate. A young man died. Another is not exactly winning in life. Very sad, but nature is capricious like that. (I say nature to mean "how the world is and such" so please nobody freak out). I honestly do worry about some kind of crazy and terrible mob action if Zimmerman is acquitted. Savvy?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Another is not exactly winning in life.
Luckily for Zimmerman, enough people have sympathized with him and sent him money that he is likely to be a millionaire after the trial.
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AI Wessex
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DJ: "How did you get that inference out of my comment? [Confused]"

Because Mark Levin said he does, and he is brilliant.

Tom: "Luckily for Zimmerman, enough people have sympathized with him and sent him money that he is likely to be a millionaire after the trial."

He'll need it to pay the lawyers for the civil suit if he's acquitted.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
DarkJello,

quote:
If I have almost exclusively heard the word "gangsta" used by shady types to describe other shady types, what other conclusion should I draw?
That you have very limited exposure to young people, especially those from poorer urban areas. Also that you probably have an overly broad definition of shady.

quote:
That is how I have heard the word used. Martin appears to have been a hoodlum to me. And that means what it sounds like it means.
He seems a typical teen to me. Have you known any significant numbers of actual hoodlums - individuals who have committed serious crimes etc.?

Personally, I think most individuals have prejudged the case, and it makes it easier to judge it as a 'self defense' if you can cast Martin as an evil thug out doing no good. Similarly it makes it easier to condemn Zimmerman if you cast him as a vigilante racist. We have this predisposition to not allow shades of gray. Thus you can't have Zimmerman as someone who is probably a mostly ok guy who made a few questionable choices that led to the death of an innocent young man.

From a strictly legal point of view, the worst possible outcome is a "compromise" verdict. This is mostly because the two charges on the table, murder 2 and manslaughter do not fit this situation at all. Murder 2 is not usually used in one on one situations, from what I understand it is used when one is intending murder but not murder on a specific individual, ie: massive attacks on groups or letting loose a danger upon a crowd with intent to kill, etc. It was a ridiculous charge to bring. Manslaughter is used when death is not sought and is completely inadvertent, which again does not necessarily apply as Zimmerman purposefully used deadly force to defend himself via FL's law.

I'm not sure what charges WOULD have been accurate, maybe some form of murder 3 via regular assault or possibly a modified form of murder 1 or a different form of manslaughter but there was excellent analysis from several lawyers I was listening to on how the prosecution brought the complete wrong set of charges and the worst thing will be for a jury to set a bad precedent by reaching a "compromise" verdict when these charges don't even come close to matching this situation.

[ July 12, 2013, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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AI Wessex
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What would have been the "right" charges?
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Another is not exactly winning in life.
Luckily for Zimmerman, enough people have sympathized with him and sent him money that he is likely to be a millionaire after the trial.
He's likely to get more money from his lawsuits against ACB, CBS and NBC that selectively edited tapes and otherwise fabricated the stories about him.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
He seems a typical teen to me.
Then you live in a completely messed up society, if that's what a "typical teen" is like for you.

I suggest that if people like Tom, Al, etc bothered to expend even a tenth of the energy they do bashing licensed gun-owners to criticize the "gangsta" subculture that produces people like Martin, you'd be living in a far better world *and* Martin would still be alive.

But you wouldn't want to appear racist. So you don't say a word, except in acceptance of that sick culture you describe. Anything goes, as long as it's not racist.

Not that I don't understand the historical reasons behind that. You had your civil war (against racists), and then you had World War II (against some more ultra-racists), and then you had your Civil Rights Movement conflict (against even more racists). So racism is pretty much the Big Bad of the entire American history - I GET IT.

Much like conservatives who, as a creation of the 1950s, have communism as their Big Bad, since (unlike progressive who have a longer history) communism it's the Big Bad of *their* entire history.

Nonetheless, nothing is going to change until some of you find the guts to stop tolerating the "gangsta" culture where seemingly kids gain status by who is going to cause other people to bleed the most.

Perhaps if Martin didn't feel the need to make Zimmerman bleed, he's be alive. Perhaps if you cared to criticize the subculture of bloodthirsty thugs, he wouldn't have been a bloodthirsty thug.

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AI Wessex
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Aris, you seem to be demonstrating a lack of understanding of US culture here by lumping Martin in with a sub-culture as if he is a perfect avatar of the image you have of what you think it is.

"Perhaps if Martin didn't feel the need to make Zimmerman bleed..."

You never give up pushing your own vision of what must have been going through Martin's mind, even though there is no actual evidence to support it.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I suggest that if people like Tom, Al, etc bothered to expend even a tenth of the energy they do bashing licensed gun-owners to criticize the "gangsta" subculture that produces people like Martin, you'd be living in a far better world...
I suggest that you have no understanding at all of what "people like Martin" are actually like.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Aris, you seem to be demonstrating a lack of understanding of US culture here by lumping Martin in with a sub-culture as if he is a perfect avatar of the image you have of what you think it is.

"Perhaps if Martin didn't feel the need to make Zimmerman bleed..."

You never give up pushing your own vision of what must have been going through Martin's mind, even though there is no actual evidence to support it.

There is plenty of evidence to support it. "creepy a$$ cracka"... "rapist"... marijuana... texts... testimony by his friend...

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I suggest that if people like Tom, Al, etc bothered to expend even a tenth of the energy they do bashing licensed gun-owners to criticize the "gangsta" subculture that produces people like Martin, you'd be living in a far better world...
I suggest that you have no understanding at all of what "people like Martin" are actually like.
Aris appears to be on target, while you and others have idealized Martin's lifestyle. He probably started the fight. We know he liked fighting.
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AI Wessex
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"There is plenty of evidence to support it. "creepy a$$ cracka"... "rapist"... marijuana... texts... testimony by his friend..."

From that you know he "[felt] the need to make Zimmerman bleed"? Jeantel testified that he asked Zimmerman why he was following him and Zimmerman didn't even give him an answer but demanded to know what Martin was doing there. Why don't you assume that Martin figured that the neighborhood had had a recent crime spree and this guy was casing the area and following him to his house? That seems like a pretty plausible speculation when he saw a guy who had just called him out as a fukcing punk.

"He probably started the fight. We know he liked fighting."

We know Zimmerman trained himself in martial arts and carried a gun, and he followed Martin when he was told not to. It's an even more reasonable speculation that Zimmerman was flexing his neighborhood watch muscles against the skinny punk.

[ July 12, 2013, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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LetterRip
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quote:
Aris appears to be on target, while you and others have idealized Martin's lifestyle. He probably started the fight. We know he liked fighting.
We have far more evidence that Zimmerman liked fighting.

We have some slight evidence that Martin engaged in a single fight - that was structured in rounds. By that evidence one would have to conclude that I love fighting. By that evidence almost every teen male in the US 'loves fighting' - there is about a 1 in 3 chance that a teen male will have been in a fight in the 'past year'. There is a world of difference between street brawling and choosing to fight in structured rounds.

The proof of Martins 'thugishness' have been based on

1) He smoked marijuana - something like 40% of US teen males have, about 25% smoke regularly. The percentages are higher for urban males.

2) He had some interest in guns - again a huge majority of US teen males do. With 20% of homes having a firearm. If you have five friends (or even 2 or 3), chances are there will be a gun in one of their homes. One doesn't need to be a gangbanging thug to have a picture of oneself with a gun.

3) He used urban slang, and negative language to describe someone who was FOLLOWING HIM at night.

Those factors describe about half of young urban males.

So yes, he is a 'typical teen' male. I seriously doubt he was any sort of 'gang banger'. Those of you disparaging him as a thug - seem to have a grossly distorted view of what typical teen males are like.

[ July 12, 2013, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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G3
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This "typical teen male" meme is so dishonest. Half way through the school year, Martin was on his third suspension. How many suspensions does the "typical teen male" get a year?
quote:
Hurley’s [M-DSPD Police Chief Charles Hurley] detectives, all of them veterans with excellent records, told a different story under oath when questioned by Internal Affairs. They knew the shell game was about to be exposed upon first learning that Martin was one of their students and outside agencies would be requesting his records.

“Oh, God, oh, my God, oh, God,” one major reportedly said when first looking at Martin’s data. He realized that Martin had been suspended twice already that school year for offenses that should have gotten him arrested – once for getting caught with a burglary tool and a dozen items of female jewelry, the second time for getting caught with marijuana and a marijuana pipe.

In each case, the case file on Martin was fudged to make the crime less serious than it was. As one detective told IA, the arrest statistics coming out of Martin’s school, Michael Krop Senior, had been “quite high,” and the detectives “needed to find some way to lower the stats.” This directive allegedly came from Hurley.

The kid's behavior was whitewashed to save the school and police stats. How many "typical teen males" require the same treatment?

I find it incredible anyone believes the meme created by the MSM around Martin. Willful denial in action.

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TomDavidson
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You think he should have been arrested for having a screwdriver in his backpack? Because that's what's being called a "burglary tool," here.
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AI Wessex
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Another cute G3-ism. Martin was suspended three times for: truancy, possession of an empty bag with traces of marijuana and graffiti. Hardly the record of a hardened criminal who you would expect to be intent on murder.

On the last one, the school security guard searched his backpack and found a "bag with women's jewelry" and a screwdriver, which he described later as a "burglary tool". None of those events were reported to the police, because none of them were considered serious enough to justify it.

Zimmerman was arrested for violently resisting arrest but the charges were dropped because he agreed to take part in an alcohol awareness course. From that and other reports we know that Zimmerman tends to get aggressive and violent when he's been drinking. We'll never know if he had been drinking the night he killed Martin, because the police chief overruled the lead investigator (Serino) that night who wanted to arrest Zimmerman, so they did not run toxicology tests on him.

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djquag1
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If I were Zimmerman, and acquited, I'd flee the country to avoid the civil suit.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
If I were Zimmerman, and acquited, I'd flee the country to avoid the civil suit.

Why would he need to avoid the civil suit? Tracy Martin committed perjury in an attempt to harm Zimmerman. Zimmerman has been libeled by nearly every major MSM network. If I was Zimmerman I'd be suing the pants of all those people and organizations to the tune of a few hundred million, the cost he'll need to maintain private security guards for the rest of his life.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
You think he should have been arrested for having a screwdriver in his backpack? Because that's what's being called a "burglary tool," here.

You think that's all he had in his backpack? What is it you think "a dozen items of female jewelry" is a euphemism for? Seriously, what does "a dozen items of female jewelry" mean when filtered through your abject guilt about being white?

If you actually read and understand what happened, you know that what he was suspended for was a white washed version of what he was really doing. They fudged his actions to make them less serious so they could avoid arrests and have better stats. The image of Martin you're being fed is not what he really was and is a long way from the "typical teen male".

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If you actually read and understand what happened, you know that what he was suspended for was a white washed version of what he was really doing.
I think that if you want to see a "thug" badly enough, you'll see one.
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G3
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I think that if you want to see "cowboy" badly enough, you'll see one.
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