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Author Topic: Martin and Zimmerman
Greg Davidson
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There is no reason to believe that the jurors had to be racist to reach this verdict. The issue may be more one of Florida law

quote:
‘not guilty’ was certainly a reasonable result in this case. As I told in friend in Tampa today though, if you’re ever in a heated argument with anyone, and you’re pretty sure there aren’t any witnesses, it’s always best to kill the other person. They can’t testify, you don’t have to testify, no one else has any idea what happened; how can the state ever prove beyond a doubt is wasn’t self-defense?

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
You know nothing about who cared about it at the time
I know I never saw any Ornery thread about it, any Hatrack thread about it, any BBC coverage about it.

quote:
and that's completely irrelevant to the actual discussion at hand anyway.
Really?

You know how "structural racism" works in a society like America whose ideology is (nominally, supposedly) anti-racist? It works by indifference.

Thousands of young black people are being allowed to be killed by other black people (whether followed, following, minding their own business, whatever -- by knives, guns, or fists and feet) -- and there wouldn't be the tiniest sound of interest by the supposed anti-racists. No protests, no calls for action, no president talking about how a victim looked like a son of his would look like, nothing.

Because politicized anti-racism works not by actually helping the lives of the underprivileged, but rather by finding villainous racists to oppose.

And if there are none, you'll manufacture some. Like the Duke Lacrosse case, like the Zimmerman-Martin case.

And in the meantime, while those supposed white racists are being decried, thousands of young black people behaving with Treyvon Martin's attitude will be killing thousands of other black people. And you won't be giving a bloody damn.

And *that's* structural racism; *that's* what's killing thousands of young black people, and ones significantly more innocent than Treyvon too.

But the high-profile cases where a white criminal may be involved, oh joy. How easily you can use them to prove your anti-racist credentials, while not doing an actual bloody damn to save actually innocent black people from being murdered.

[ July 14, 2013, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Gaoics79
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quote:
But the high-profile cases where a white criminal may be involved, oh joy. How easily you can use them to prove your anti-racist credentials, while not doing an actual bloody damn to save actually innocent black people from being murdered.
The irony of this case is that Zimmerman was no more "white" than Barrack Obama. When the facts don't fit the racialized narrative we prefer, we twist the facts until we get the story we like, facts be damned.

Treyvon Martin, a little "boy" out from buying candy at the store was innocently skipping home singing "tralalala" when evil "white" Latino man, Zimmerman, "stalked" and "threatened" Treyvon until Treyvon "defended" himself, which then led to Zimmerman shooting the poor "kid" in cold blood.

Here come the riots. I predicted this months ago. It wouldn't matter what the verdict was. The moment Martin's mom waved that cutesy picture of Treyvon in front of the camera (what was, he 12 in the photo?) and Al Sharpton appeared the result (guilty or not) was inevitable.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
There is no reason to believe that the jurors had to be racist to reach this verdict. The issue may be more one of Florida law
Yes, because only in Florida is "self defence" a defence to murder [Roll Eyes]

One of the biggest myths of this case has been that this trial was being decided on some particularity of Florida law such as "stand your ground" when in reality it was simply a straight up self-defence case.

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philnotfil
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I think that the fundamental thing that is giving people trouble is that someone was killed, and the person who did the killing appears to be the person who initiated the confrontation, and is now going to get away without any meaningful consequences.

The issue has gotten clouded because some groups have tried to make it about race, and other groups are pushing back just because that is what they do (if the Democrats are for it, the Republicans have to be against it, even if it makes sense), but underneath all of that, it just doesn't feel right.

Speaking as a parent, when my kids fight with each other, they both go to the corner, when I find out who started it, that one stays in the corner a little longer.

With Trayvon dead after Zimmerman was told to stop following him, it feels like justice isn't being served by Zimmerman walking away a free man.

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AI Wessex
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There's been one riot, in Oakland CA, of about 100 people. They smashed windows and caused other mayhem and damage. Otherwise, it appears that there are a lot of small but peaceful protests in different parts of the country.

OTOH, there is a drumbeat of warnings of impending riots and claims of black-on-white violence stoking fears of backlash over the verdict on Conservative blogs all over the country. It's as if they want things to get out of hand so they can indulge in further demonizing of liberals and blacks, nominally because they wanted Zimmerman to be held accountable for an unarmed person's death, but really because they just plain aren't like them in the ways that matter.

Ann Coulter actually called for whites-only riots if Zimmerman was convicted. You have to wonder what she was thinking, but she's not alone in manning the barricades against enemies of what they believe is the traditional establishment status quo. Phony pictures of a post-verdict riot in Miami are already circulating on the right. 75% of Washington Times readers expect widespread race riots.

Here are a couple of today's blog headlines to think about:

...Trayvon Martin Supporters Planning To Riot & Loot If Zimmerman acquitted (mrconservative)
...Obama Plans Nationwide Race Riots If Zimmerman Is Found Innocent (beforeitsnews)
...Hundreds threaten to riot and/or murder over Zimmerman trial (topconservativenews)
...Ex-Chicago Cop: Zimmerman Acquittal to Cause Race Riots (Infowars)
...Zimmerman Acquittal Could Lead to LA Style Riots (Alex Jones)

etc.

Some of our right-wing members are probably good examples of how those kinds of people think. For some, finding even years-old isolated instances of reverse-racism and claiming that that is a bigger problem in our society than inherent social and race-based injustice, while bashing year-old stories of events that contradict that narrative.

Grant is right that it's not over, but what's not over is the "culture war" in our society between the oppressed white majority and the militant over-privileged black minority led by their dear Socialist leader. Is anything short of complete victory possible?

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
There is no reason to believe that the jurors had to be racist to reach this verdict. The issue may be more one of Florida law
Yes, because only in Florida is "self defence" a defence to murder [Roll Eyes]

One of the biggest myths of this case has been that this trial was being decided on some particularity of Florida law such as "stand your ground" when in reality it was simply a straight up self-defence case.

It was SYG because they say it was SYG. Even though defense did not push that angle. The facts got in the way of "justice" in this case. [DOH]

Wessex:

All of those headlines seemed accurate to me. Black "leaders" have been whipping up hatred. Many black youth have initiated a perverse contest of who can hate Zimmerman more, based on they creativity of their death threat and associate picture. Seems quite dangerous. It appears that innocent folks, of whatever color, will pay for all the "racism" in this trial. The same folks that ignored evidence, will continue to ignore the facts and run around acting on almost pure emotion. Your own stance has been highly suspect. Any other verdict would have been a miscarriage of justice. I hope Zimmerman sues the pants off of the lying media. They certainly earned enough sensationalizing this "white" on black "crime". Time to pay the piper.

Death threats are being made against the 6 female jurors now. Sounds like a war on women to me...

[ July 14, 2013, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Seneca
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This is just more of an example of the polarization of America.

The people here who are convinced that Zimmerman was guilty are incapable of believing otherwise. They have committed themselves religiously to this belief and would not change it even if the heavens opened and God himself came down and told them it wasn't true.

Maybe OSC is right, maybe we are headed toward an "Empire" type situation. There is so little real, good faith discourse or persuasion that is capable these days and the truth is lost through all of it.

This trial was a farce, a show trial to divide America even more than it already was for the benefit of the politicians and the media and it looks like it's working.

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djquag1
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i.imgur.com/4sCvnMZ.jpg

I didn't make this, just passing it on.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The people here who are convinced that Zimmerman was guilty are incapable of believing otherwise.
You believe Zimmerman was innocent. Are you capable of believing otherwise?
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D.W.
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I believe(d) he was legally innocent. If he was convicted that belief would have been proven wrong. I think I am pretty good at accepting reality regardless of my opinion on how things SHOULD be.
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LetterRip
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Discussion of this case reminded me of a scene from 'The Messenger'

Joan of Arc found a sword in a field. She interprets this as a sign from God that she is to lead the French armies against the English. God/'The Conscience' is talking with her about her interpretation of the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOE

quote:
You didn't see what was. You saw what you wanted to see.

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PSRT
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quote:
Really, don't you think that it would instead give licence to every bloodthirsty thug out there to beat another person to death, and then claim "he was following me, and I was feeling threatened", and their victims won't be able to have a right to defend themselves?
You're an idiot, Aris, and you're wrong. The only things we know ACTUALLY happened are that Zimmerman followed Martin, continued to follow him after being told not to, and then a confrontation happened in which Zimmerman was being beaten up (whether that physical altercation was started by Zimmerman, or Martin, we have NO IDEA), and then Zimmerman (i.e. the man who initiated the contact between these two men) ended up shooting Martin.

Everything else is pure speculation. Calling Martin a "bloodthirsty thug" is far FAR FAR beyond the available evidence, and demonstrates your EXTREME bias in this situation.

Manslaughter, under any set of reasonable laws, should absolutely have been returned. Florida law is currently not reasonable, and this case is an example of why.

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D.W.
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quote:
Manslaughter, under any set of reasonable laws, should absolutely have been returned. Florida law is currently not reasonable, and this case is an example of why.
Which is why all the outrage should be focused on getting laws changed. Anything else is a waste of time and energy.
(or damaging and counter productive)

PSTR, in the quote by Aris he didn't necessarily state that Martin was a bloodthirsty thug. Rather that the decision would have given those types license to indulge in bloodthirsty thug behavior. Whether he implied it or not is another story. The statement isn't idiotic even if it is speculative on what others may do.

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cherrypoptart
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There is nothing wrong with Florida law either. If someone is beating your head against the concrete that is nothing less than attempted murder and you have every right to defend yourself with deadly force.
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cherrypoptart
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And you've gotta love this assertion that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Trayvon would not have been murdered...

So if there is a black person walking around, everyone else has to stay in their vehicles until the police arrive on scene and give the all clear?

What if you are already walking around and you see a black person? What do you do then? Run to your car or home and lock yourself in it and call the police? What if they are between you and your sanctuary? What do you do then? Run in the other direction? Run in circles, scream and shout, pop your bubble and hearth on out? Stop, drop, and roll?

What do you do? What do you do!?!

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cherrypoptart
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And one take away from all of this just in case others find themselves in a similar situation is that if all you bring to a gun fight is a bag of skittles, you'd best be ready to share.
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PSRT
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Everything about ARis's behavior in regards to this case(as well as a fair number of other people on this site, but from them its expected) has been idiotic. He has also in previous posts called Martin a bloodthirsty thug and similar, so I don't think its unreasonable to call him out on it, even if in this particular case he was being more general.

Yes, D.W., we should be working to get laws changed. But we should ALSO be calling out people who are doing what Aris is doing: I.E. making leaps of judgement based on his own biases, rather than the evidence.

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AI Wessex
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DJ: "All of those headlines seemed accurate to me. Black "leaders" have been whipping up hatred."

Cite them, please. Meanwhile, back in the real world what we see are serious discussions in churches and meeting places about the role of race in our society. Let's see if those are portrayed as blacks stirring up racial hatred.

Seneca: "This trial was a farce, a show trial to divide America even more than it already was for the benefit of the politicians and the media and it looks like it's working."

Right, yours is clearly not a polarized perspective.

Cherry: "As for Martin being a bloodthirsty thug, before you dismiss that you should see the video of him involved with the beat down of a homeless man."

I'm glad you brought that up. IT WAS A HOAX PERPETRATED BY O'MARA. He retracted it later, but the retraction got only a fraction of the airplay that the phony representation did, and so it sticks in the minds of people who would like to believe it was true.

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cherrypoptart
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Cherry: "As for Martin being a bloodthirsty thug, before you dismiss that you should see the video of him involved with the beat down of a homeless man."

> I'm glad you brought that up. IT WAS A HOAX PERPETRATED BY O'MARA. He retracted it later, but the retraction got only a fraction of the airplay that the phony representation did, and so it sticks in the minds of people who would like to believe it was true.

Glad you guys are on top of this. I had just deleted that post right before you posted this because when I went to get the link to post it here I found out exactly what you are saying. So did Martin even record it on his cell? Is that him laughing about it or did it have nothing to do with him?

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LetterRip
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cherry,

quote:
It's patently obvious what happened here. Pretending like it's some big mystery and we'll never really know is just being silly.
It actually isn't obvious what happened. The evidence seems most in line with the narrative I provided. Which implies Zimmerman grabbed Martin which initiated the confrontation - which would have supported a guilty verdict.

quote:
As for Martin being a bloodthirsty thug, before you dismiss that you should see the video of him involved with the beat down of a homeless man.
By involved do you mean that he filmed two homeless guys who were fighting over a bike? Or were you mistakenly implying something else?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/03/trayvon_martin_homeless_fight_video_zimmerman_team_concedes_video_isn_t.html

quote:
There is nothing wrong with Florida law either.
I'd say that is highly debatable [Smile]

quote:
. If someone is beating your head against the concrete that is nothing less than attempted murder and you have every right to defend yourself with deadly force.
Yes but the facts don't support the claim that that occurred. There was only evidence of the single punch to the nose. Nothing to imply that anyones head was 'beaten against concrete'.

[ July 14, 2013, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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Seneca
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There are still people who believe Zimmerman was following Martin after being told not to.

In reality he was never told "not to." He was told by a civilian non-LEO dispatcher with NO authority that they didn't "need him to" which is different than an LEO saying "DON'T do X."

Besides all that, when the dispatcher said they didn't need him to, he said "OK," and stopped then simply got out of his truck to ascertain his location by finding an address or street sign. But even if he had continued following past this point it was NOT in violation of any lawful order from a legit LEO.

The jury obviously understood this.

Will we ever know for sure exactly what happened in every single second? No. But there was sufficient evidence to prove that self-defense was a plausible reason for the shooting and there was not sufficient evidence for a Murder 2 or manslaughter conviction.

I am by no means a fanatical person. I am very logical and fact-driven. When shopping I tend to research products quite a bit, when formulating opinions on subjects I am the same way. My logic and rationale in this case has been entirely dispassionate. It also helps I am not white so when the race baiters are running around accusing anyone who agreed with this verdict of racism based on absurd emotional grounds, it serves as a decent buffer when they see my skin color and avoid mouthing their stupidity. Not that non-white people can't be racist, we see it every day, and we saw it in this trial as per Trayvon's "cracka" comments, but it's tougher for the liberal PC crowd to decry me as the stereotypical "white" racist gun owner.

[ July 14, 2013, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
I believe(d) he was legally innocent. If he was convicted that belief would have been proven wrong. I think I am pretty good at accepting reality regardless of my opinion on how things SHOULD be.

We need more of this logic, and less race pimping and hate/fear mongering.

I don't understand why a black being killed by a "white" person every so often is WAY worse than the thousands of killings by other blacks.

quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
[QUOTE]The only things we know ACTUALLY happened are that Zimmerman followed Martin, continued to follow him after being told not to, and then a confrontation happened in which Zimmerman was being beaten up (whether that physical altercation was started by Zimmerman, or Martin, we have NO IDEA), and then Zimmerman (i.e. the man who initiated the contact between these two men) ended up shooting Martin.

Manslaughter, under any set of reasonable laws, should absolutely have been returned. Florida law is currently not reasonable, and this case is an example of why.

And because "we have no idea", Zimmerman was found not guilty. We also know this case ran the gamut, and 6 women made a unanimous decision. And we know that gobs of people are happy to make money via slander, libel, and flat-out lies. Well played MSM, your numbers were good. So what if hundreds of lies were told... it aint no thang.

So now Florida law is the problem??? Make up your mind please. Your analysis is causing vertigo.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkJello:
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
I believe(d) he was legally innocent. If he was convicted that belief would have been proven wrong. I think I am pretty good at accepting reality regardless of my opinion on how things SHOULD be.

We need more of this logic, and less race pimping and hate/fear mongering.

I don't understand why a black being killed by a "white" person every so often is WAY worse than the thousands of killings by other blacks.

Because the liberal PCers don't want to admit gang violence even exists.
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D.W.
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quote:
If someone is beating your head against the concrete that is nothing less than attempted murder and you have every right to defend yourself with deadly force.

Yes but the facts don't support the claim that that occurred. There was only evidence of the single punch to the nose. Nothing to imply that anyones head was 'beaten against concrete'.

Seems like the jury probably accepted that part. Unless they reached self defense standards with a single punch to the nose. (which did cause some lacerations to the back of Zimmerman's head?)

quote:
Besides all that, when the dispatcher said they didn't need him to, he said "OK," and stopped then simply got out of his truck to ascertain his location by finding an address or street sign. But even if he had continued following past this point it was NOT in violation of any lawful order from a legit LEO.
Excellent points. Even if I find the whole, getting out to check the street sign, utter B.S. I thought that, what I perceived as lies, to make himself sound less suspicious, were what may have been the cause of a guilty verdict.

To be clear, I think Zimmerman was within his legal rights to fire his gun at Martin during the fight. I also think his story is suspect because he felt he may need to help it along to insure he was not prosecuted/convicted. The catch is I think he is / was acting like a power hungry bully with something to prove. I don't know how to protect society from people like that (if that characterization is true) while also allowing for legitimate use of deadly force in self defense which I strongly support.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Yes, D.W., we should be working to get laws changed. But we should ALSO be calling out people who are doing what Aris is doing: I.E. making leaps of judgement based on his own biases, rather than the evidence.

Are you including Sharpton, JJ, that Melissa "journalist", and gobs of other black "leaders" that have behaved in a much, much, much worse manner than Aris? You know, the ones scoring tons of cash off this matter. Should the race pimps, and all of the young black men and women they are pushing into a frenzy, also be held to this standard? Or is this just another hypocritical push for "justice" in America??

How did Florida turn from voting Obama last year, to total racists in such a short time? They were correct last year, but now the same people vote for laws they want/hope/wish will be used by 1/2 white 1/2 latino men to gun down innocent blacks that refuse to share skittles? Take me through the logic please. Prove that Florida law is the problem, and that Zimmerman would have fried in almost every other state. Links please. I will wait.

quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
DJ: "All of those headlines seemed accurate to me. Black "leaders" have been whipping up hatred."

Cite them, please. Meanwhile, back in the real world what we see are serious discussions in churches and meeting places about the role of race in our society. Let's see if those are portrayed as blacks stirring up racial hatred.

I cited a bunch already, and so did you. Why should I cite more?

I applaud all serious discussions about race. I am sure your wish will occur. A tiny minority will say terrible things about "racial hatred", and you will be right there to jump on it and "prove" the horror of white republicans. Meanwhile, gobs of mainstream liberals will continue to blame whites and "uncle toms" and anyone else that opposes their race pimping. Tons of polite discussion about "teabaggers" will occur on all the major broadcasts, and it will be proof of tolerance by progressives. Same cycle over and over is easy to predict. Some folks really, really, really need to focus on an internal locus of control instead of worshipping an external locus of control 99% of the time.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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Seneca: "In reality he was never told "not to." He was told by a civilian non-LEO dispatcher with NO authority that they didn't "need him to" which is different than an LEO saying "DON'T do X.""

The dispatcher explained that they are not allowed to say "DON'T FOLLOW HIM" for liability reasons, but NW patrols understand that it means exactly that.

Seneca: "Besides all that, when the dispatcher said they didn't need him to, he said "OK," and stopped then simply got out of his truck to ascertain his location by finding an address or street sign."

Look at a map. There's really ONLY ONE STREET in the subdivision, which is WHERE ZIMMERMAN LIVED. Videos of the area showed that there is a house number posted right where he parked.

Seneca: "I am by no means a fanatical person. I am very logical and fact-driven."

That is about the most self-deluded post I've ever seen on Ornery, bar none.

I hope the jurors get a chance to explain what drove their decision. My guess is that they followed O'Mara's advice and didn't yield to the impulse to "connect the dots" where there was no information, rather than they decided that Zimmerman had to be telling the truth. The gaps between the dots would have been Martin's side of the story, and he wasn't there to tell it.

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AI Wessex
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DJ: "Links please. I will wait."

I'm waiting for you to provide links of black leaders calling for violence.

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PSRT
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quote:
To be clear, I think Zimmerman was within his legal rights to fire his gun at Martin during the fight.
Is he within his rights to fire his gun at Martin if he got himself into a fight he couldn't win, and used deadly force to win it?
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
There was only evidence of the single punch to the nose. Nothing to imply that anyones head was 'beaten against concrete'.

That is a lie. Don't succumb to the dark side LR. It is powerful, but not stronger.

quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
DJ: "Links please. I will wait."

I'm waiting for you to provide links of black leaders calling for violence.

I said "whipping up hatred". Poor reading comprehension or lying? And what happened to accepting the verdict?

[ July 14, 2013, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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OK, as I originally asked, give some links to whatever it is you say they are doing.

I do accept the verdict. We're talking about how other people are reacting to it.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
To be clear, I think Zimmerman was within his legal rights to fire his gun at Martin during the fight.
Is he within his rights to fire his gun at Martin if he got himself into a fight he couldn't win, and used deadly force to win it?
Is there evidence to show, conclusively, that Zimmerman initiated the fight? The only eyewitnesses with any shred of credibility have testified that they did not see the fight start but saw martin on top of Zimmerman raining blows on him.

I'm curious as to why so many people are brushing off the wounds Martin inflicted on Zimmerman as trivial. People die from single hits to the head all the time.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680107-overview

quote:
Deaths resulting from blunt force trauma are some of the most common cases encountered by the practicing forensic pathologist. Whereas other forms of traumatic death (eg, gunshot wounds, sharp force injuries) occur under a relatively limited number of circumstances, deaths resulting from blunt force trauma occur in a variety of scenarios. For instance, almost all transportation fatalities — including those involving motor vehicle collisions, pedestrians being struck by vehicles, airplane crashes, and boating incidents — result from blunt force trauma. Other deaths resulting from blunt force trauma involve jumping or falling from heights, blast injuries, and being struck by a firm object, such as a fist, crowbar, bat, or ball. Bite wounds and chop injuries may be considered variants of blunt force trauma, sharp force trauma, or a class of injuries untothemselves.
In short, it is 100% reasonable for Zimmerman to believe he was going to die at Martin's hands.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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AI Wessex
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Seneca: "In short, it is 100% reasonable for Zimmerman to believe he was going to die at Martin's hands."

What did Martin believe Zimmerman was going to do to him?

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PSRT
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quote:
Is there evidence to show, conclusively, that Zimmerman initiated the fight?
No.

But here's the problem: There is also not evidence to show, conclusively, that Martin started the fight.

Given that, reasonable laws should convict Zimmerman of manslaughter.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Seneca: "In short, it is 100% reasonable for Zimmerman to believe he was going to die at Martin's hands."

What did Martin believe Zimmerman was going to do to him?

Apparently rape him, and then kill all his neighbors. That is what "creepy a$$ crackas" do all the time after all. He profiled Zim and Zim profiled him. We should make that illegal. How dare you look at someone and form ANY judgement whatsoever!!

quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
Is there evidence to show, conclusively, that Zimmerman initiated the fight?
No.

But here's the problem: There is also not evidence to show, conclusively, that Martin started the fight.

Given that, reasonable laws should convict Zimmerman of manslaughter.

Prove that Florida law is the problem, or stop saying that. One or the other broham.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
Is there evidence to show, conclusively, that Zimmerman initiated the fight?
No.

But here's the problem: There is also not evidence to show, conclusively, that Martin started the fight.

Given that, reasonable laws should convict Zimmerman of manslaughter.

Why manslaughter? Zimmerman knowingly shot Martin, it wasn't an accident. He intended to use a gun, the gun didn't go off by accident. It's either murder or not in this case, and now, obvious "or not."
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D.W.
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quote:
Is he within his rights to fire his gun at Martin if he got himself into a fight he couldn't win, and used deadly force to win it?
If the prosecution showed beyond a reasonable doubt that he initiated the physical altercation, by attempting to restrain (illegally) or hit Martin first, then I don't believe he would have been within his rights. That was the job the prosecution had and failed to convince the jury of.
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D.W.
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quote:
Given that, reasonable laws should convict Zimmerman of manslaughter.
Prison time should NEVER be the default answer if you can't prove things one way or another. This is just crazy talk.
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cherrypoptart
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"But here's the problem: There is also not evidence to show, conclusively, that Martin started the fight.

Given that, reasonable laws should convict Zimmerman of manslaughter."

Doesn't that put the guilty until proven innocent idea backwards?

It seems like people are making up some improbable scenario in their own heads wherein Zimmerman would have started the fight. And some of the same people also insist that Zimmerman actually started the fight when he got out of his car.

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PSRT
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quote:
Prison time should NEVER be the default answer if you can't prove things one way or another. This is just crazy talk.
If I kill someone, and do not contest that fact, then I believe that, yes, I have to PROVE that I had a reason to kill that person.

Everything else is crazy talk. Imagine the possibilities otherwise. Murder becomes legal as long as no one sees you do it.

[ July 14, 2013, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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