I mean... the motive behind the riots is not "race" or skin color, but the fact that the government is dumping an infinite number of illegal refugees and work immigrants at the poorest quarters of Tel Aviv.
Crime is getting rampant in those places, people are afraid and because they are poor they have no political sway.
These people were ignored for years and after a series of violent crimes in tel aviv that originated from illegal immigrants the situation exploded.
it is not because they are black, or white, or from sudan, or ivory coast or whatever.
That being said, I cannot vouch that there were'nt racists present there, but this was not the cause for the riots
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Is there any organization in the world more pathetic and useless ?
The UN, just like any other political entity in the world, acts only when it is convenient for it, or if acting outweighs the inconvenience it generates.
An Israeli appeal to the UN (and by the way, I am quite positive Israel brought this up) will take years of committees and decisions and resolutions and endless discussions that will generate absolutely nothing <- and this is if someone will even pay attention to what Israel has to say.
What exactly does the UN do to support the Syrian population I wonder ?
Guys, lets be honest with ourselves, Israel is on the receiving end of this influx of illegal immigrants, no other country would like to see those immigrants at its doorstep, no other country wants to offer help, just as the UN does not offer any help. Asking for help is pointless.
This is just how things are, we all see how the US treats illegal immigrants, dont give us lectures as if you guys are the epitome of goodness.
Israel cannot accommodate tens of thousands of immigrants without skills, education, capital, language without nothing.
The israeli government handled this INTERNAL crisis very poorly, dumping the illegals in poor areas in Tel Aviv. The people who live there have every right to protest about it. Why didnt they dump them at the richest neighborhoods ? no need to answer this question right ?
Sure, Miri Regev is a buffoon, but dont cling to the unimportant decorations. At the core Israel has every right to defend itself from being overrun and no other country would act differently.
quote:Originally posted by Hannibal: Guys, lets be honest with ourselves, Israel is on the receiving end of this influx of illegal immigrants, no other country would like to see those immigrants at its doorstep, no other country wants to offer help
So you say. But like America with the Jewish boats during our Depression, Israel is kind of being an massive international wussy if it doesn't even put the question out. And when its backwater moron leaders use words like "cancer" to describe victims analogous to the Jewish escapees from Krystalnacht, your fine nation compounds its moral cowardice with a grotesque species of bullying.
All I'm saying is that Israel would look better if, rather than demonizing the Eritreans, if Israel appealed to the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (which obviously isn't the same thing as the UN ) for assistance, saying that these are victims of repressive regimes, but that Israel lacks the space and resources to keep them. If the international community declines to help at all, your request still places you in a better light. I don't understand why that's such a bitter pill for you to swallow.
quote:At the core Israel has every right to defend itself from being overrun and no other country would act differently.
If you'd truly paid attention to what I'd said, you might have noticed that I specifically pointed to a better example: MACEDONIA.
And if you misconstrue what I've said into "America would do better," I will do what I can within the limits of Ornery rules to make you feel very very stupid. Yes, America has elected some folks that are at least as ignorant as your pitiful Miri Regev. Yes, we have anti-immigration buffoonery in droves. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to yell when your politicians approach the stupidity of those in my own country re Immigration.
I personally think that the international community demonizes Israel beyond reason. I hate it when you elect idiots that begin to give them reason to treat you the way that you do.
OrneryMod: Edited to remove quotes and responses to moderated sections of other posts.
posted
Seems to me that when government representatives call for imprisonment of human rights activists and insight race riots (these riots were against a specific racial group Hannibal) that Israel is on a slippery slope towards isolation.
quote: This is just how things are, we all see how the US treats illegal immigrants, dont give us lectures as if you guys are the epitome of goodness.
In the past 30 years the town I'm living in in New Jersey has seen a demographic shift to become majority latino. There's no way that many lations came here legally. Yet many of the immigrants here have become established enough to own decent homes and vehicles. White people aren't coming into this township rioting and beating up shopkeepers.
Politicians may talk about dealing with illegal immigration, but one that argued that latinos threatened the American charachter would be roundly denounced by both parties.
Save the "I'm rubber you're glue" defense. The issue here isn't whether Israel should be expected to absorb illegals. It's the use of dehumanizing rhetoric and violence.
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"This is just how things are, we all see how the US treats illegal immigrants, dont give us lectures as if you guys are the epitome of goodness."
Who has claimed that the US is the epitome of goodness with regard to illegal immigration? Yes, we have some politicians that are just as hateful and stupid as the ones quoted in this article. That doesn't make your politicians less hateful and stupid.
If Israel does something stupid, does that mean that you can't criticize America when it makes the same mistake? Where is that written?
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Miri Regev is backwater and a moron, but she is not a leader
She is just a low ranking parliament member who wishes to be heard and to appeal to the lowest quality of people who exist in every country.
Nobody takes her seriously, I think she even doesnt take herself seriously.
The fact that such low quality grade people even made it to the Israeli parliament is worthy of its own topic.
"There's no way that many lations came here legally. Yet many of the immigrants here have become established enough to own decent homes and vehicles. White people aren't coming into this township rioting and beating up shopkeepers."
This might be a nice story, which you think can be corralated but it is not.
First of all, are those immigrants sleeping in the city parks by the hundreds? secondly the people who come here have nothing, can you compare that to the vast spanish ecosystem that exists in the US ? Thirdly, in the US a homeless is much more common than in Israel, this is one thing we that you have and we dont aspire to have as well.
You might not appreciate the scope of the situation but we are talking tens of thousands a year, most of them are gathering in poor quarters where there are also several thousands people. we are not talking about a "state" that had an antropological shift
Where did all your "indigenous" New Jersians leave? to a different city, to a different place. There is plenty of room in the US. There is not that much room to go to in Israel.
"Politicians may talk about dealing with illegal immigration, but one that argued that latinos threatened the American charachter would be roundly denounced by both parties."
Again... seriously this is so far from being the same case. there are 50M latinos in the US, there are more "non white" babies born in the US than white. (I am not saying its a bad thing, I am just bringing you the scope) ofcourse no politician in the US will say anything that will infuriate 20% of the population. This is not the case in Israel
"if Israel appealed to the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY"
Seriously dude, the international community does not help in such matters, they only rub their hands and silently smirk that it does not happen to them.
This is an INTERNATIONAL problem right? the Sudanese are going quite a way untill they reach Israel, where exactly is the evolved first world ?
And now that the story is in the new, why nobody from a country with an evolved sensibility rises up and say "yes, we can have them"
Come'on you guys.....
"If Israel does something stupid, does that mean that you can't criticize America when it makes the same mistake? Where is that written?"
Feel free to criticize, but then expect me to say "tend to your own backyard before you solve other people's problems where you might know far less than you actually think you do"
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I do tend to my back yard. When an American politician uses such terms, I shout them down. And when a country that lives and thrives on my tax dollars elects a leader that uses such terms, I shout them down too.
Do you tell us to mind our own business when European and Iranian leaders say hateful and inhumane things about Jews and Israelis?
[ May 30, 2012, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]
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"When an American politician uses such terms, I shout them down."
I'm sorry, I thought we are thinking about the situation/problem -> the important subject. I thought we moved beyond the idiot parliament member phase.
You should understand Pete, and other fellow Americans, Israelis dont talk the same way as you do, we are far less politicly correct, far less calculated the way we speak and much more blunt (I much prefer the Israeli way over the American one by the way). What you might consider as an extreme, we wont and vice versa. There is a cultural gap between us, we are not the same people even though I am using your language to communicate with you, my culture is different than yours.
And again, I dont know how many times over I need to repeat my opinion about PM Miri Regev and her friends. Shortly after her stupid remark, a demonstration began outside of her house. Israelis also did not like what she said and how she said it.
That does not mean that there is no problem, and that the basic idea behind Regev's poorly worded statement is not correct
Our prime minister did not use an inflammatory term, in a rare occasion I am going to defend him. What he did say is that the phenomenon is dangerous for Israel and I totally agree with him. There are tens of thousands of illegals, and there are hundreds of thousands if not millions on the way.
It is you however who seems to cling to the side issue and not to the important one
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quote:Originally posted by Hannibal: "When an American politician uses such terms, I shout them down."
I'm sorry, I thought we are thinking about the situation/problem -> the important subject. I thought we moved beyond the idiot parliament member phase.
You should understand Pete, and other fellow Americans, Israelis dont talk the same way as you do, we are far less politicly correct, far less calculated the way we speak and much more blunt (I much prefer the Israeli way over the American one by the way). What you might consider as an extreme, we wont and vice versa. There is a cultural gap between us, we are not the same people even though I am using your language to communicate with you, my culture is different than yours.
And again, I dont know how many times over I need to repeat my opinion about PM Miri Regev and her friends. Shortly after her stupid remark, a demonstration began outside of her house. Israelis also did not like what she said and how she said it.
That does not mean that there is no problem, and that the basic idea behind Regev's poorly worded statement is not correct
Our prime minister did not use an inflammatory term, in a rare occasion I am going to defend him. What he did say is that the phenomenon is dangerous for Israel and I totally agree with him. There are tens of thousands of illegals, and there are hundreds of thousands if not millions on the way.
It is you however who seems to cling to the side issue and not to the important one
I do see the important issue. And I've repeatedly agreed with you that Israel does not have the space or resources to permanently settle all of these Eritreans within Israel. I'm just saying that if you made even a hopeless effort to get international help for them, that this would make it less embarrassing for your allies to continue to defend you when your enemies accuse you of "apartheid." Just pretend to care, if that's all you can muster.
You could also pretend to consider resettling them in the occupied territories. Then when the international community starts screeching, renew your request for alternatives. Posts: 35618 | Registered: Jun 2001
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"Shortly after her stupid remark, a demonstration began outside of her house. Israelis also did not like what she said and how she said it."
That's very good news. I wish that we had more of that sort of response in the US when our politicians say horrid things about immigrants. Kudos to the Israeli people for that.
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"that this would make it less embarrassing for your allies to continue to defend you"
You can simply point out to those who accuse us, that on their way to Israel, these people pass through other much more enlightened places such as Egypt, where they take care of the problem by simply shooting illegals on the spot.
So when Arabs accuse israel of apartheid and use this as an example.... just bring that up and you will be fine.
"Just pretend to care"
Israel, just to remind you, provides a far better safety net to its population, including immigrants, than for instance - the US.
Just saying.
We could always solve it the San Francisco way, and simply throw them to the streets begging for food and money
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"Israel, just to remind you, provides a far better safety net to its population, including immigrants, than for instance - the US."
Yes, Hannibal, thank you; I'm sure that will be extremely helpful when we use our time, money, and influence to try to influence the international community on your behalf.
I meant pretend to care about a non-Jewish life. Stop making it a national priority to validate antisemitic claims that Jews only care about the lives of other Jews.
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"Yes, Hannibal, thank you; I'm sure that will be extremely helpful when we use our time, money, and influence to try to influence the international community on your behalf"
I dont see the French or the Germans complaining to the US about Israel's maltreatment of illegal immigrants
I dont understand your point. Are you somehow tying this to the Arab-Israeli conflict ?
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quote:You could also pretend to consider resettling them in the occupied territories. Then when the international community starts screeching, renew your request for alternatives.
That is a fantastic idea Pete!
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"You could also pretend to consider resettling them in the occupied territories. Then when the international community starts screeching, renew your request for alternatives."
LOL I agree, I wish Israel would be a crazy enough country to do that, but this is not how countries in the playground, that Israel wants to be in, play
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I'm not saying the story corrolates, I'm saying you can't use US treatment of immigrants as a way to blow off criticism. US treatment of immigrants may be exploitative but white people aren't running around the barrio beating up shopkeepers.
If you want to move on from the rhetoric fine. Please explain how the violence was justified.
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Perhaps Israel could ship them to some of the illegal settlements that had been evacuated, and say it's a temporary measure until another host nation can be found...
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1) These aren't your classic race riots, but there is a significant race tone to it. Again: Ethiopian Jews are heavily screwed here. One was assaulted today when mistaken for a migrant/refugee
2) At least 70% of all Eritreans+Sudanese who reach 1st world countries are recognized as refugees.
3) Israel, while not willing to flat out lock down the borders and refuse all entry and shoot at all who approach, also is not willing to concede that any of these people may be refugees, simply bars them from even applying for said status. So they can't get temporary residency and work rights, and they are here, and aren't being deported.
4) If Israel were to accept African refugees on a per-capita par with most of Europe, North America, Australia etc (which it is not obligated to, just saying), it would have to accept another 80K or so. On top of the estimated 60K in Israel now.
5) So these people manage to sneak across the border, without first falling prey to the hellish treatment of many Bedouins in Sinai. They are mysteriously picked up by bus and dumped in the neighborhoods of South Tel Aviv. Residents thereof, very very understandably, overwhelmed and at wits' end. But who dumps the "infiltrators" there?
quote: I can't remember the last time I heard ICE being accused of ethnic cleansing when they deport illegals, or demonstrations against illegals being called race riots.
posted
"Please explain how the violence was justified."
I am not going to explain that, because the violence is not justified.
What I said is that those people felt like they had no other means of generating impressions & air time. and I think that in this aspect they were totally right.
Look you are talking about the people who really felt like nobody cares about their problems or listens to their situation and nobody comes and offers solutions.
All they see is how its very convenient for Israel to "decide not to decide" about the problem (as Ricky described above) and in the meanwhile "dump" these immigrants where nobody looks.
Eventually you'll get a riot. Even normative people will riot eventually. I dont justify I am saying Israel mis managed this problem, until eventually it blew up in our faces.
You guys decided to cling to the superficial, low ranking PMs trying to generate support from the lowest echelons of the population.
I do think that Israel should have a very clear policy about this. It should finish the border wall to hinder immigrants efforts
I would also like to ask Ricky where/how he came up with his "per capita" numbers. I am interested to learn this for myself
I would want to add though to Ricky that there is a "network effect" in europe because all of these countries are tightly coupled and they can organize to take care of a problem. Israel cant organize with its neighbors and its far harder for Israel to organize with the europeans because we are not physically networked with them.
I also think that there should be a world charter regarding issues such as this,I would like to play a mind game with you guys
what happens if tomorrow 20,000 syrians flee riots from Syria towards Israel ? I honestly dont think this is too far fetched
What are we going to do? we cant let them blow up on the minefields or shoot them or can we? or what?
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quote: What I said is that those people felt like they had no other means of generating impressions & air time. and I think that in this aspect they were totally right.
That's you justifying the violence. You can't keep trying to have it both ways.
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I dont understand, maybe it is in all honesty a language barrier
where did I Justify violance ? or maybe I dont know the meaning of "to justify"
I dont support the violance, I think it will only deteriorate things, I just explained how the situation arrived to where it is.
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You just explained why violence was the only course of action left to the rioters. That's a justification for the riots.
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quote: I said they FELT like they had no other means. not that they really had no other means
quote: What I said is that those people felt like they had no other means of generating impressions & air time. and I think that in this aspect they were totally right.
Both of these statements can't be true.
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"What I said is that those people felt like they had no other means of generating impressions & air time. and I think that in this aspect they were totally right."
Really? The only way was to attack the other victims? The same amount of violent anger directed at government institutions and representatives wouldn't have been equally as impressive?
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I can see how you would come to that conclusion
I did not word this the best way possible, what I meant is that it would be the most "effective" way to get impressions not that they had other choice.
but the words definitely did not convey this
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More bad behavior. While I understand the frustrations of those living in South TV failure of leadership to condemn these actions is certainly giving a green light to thugs.
There always seems to be some kind of justification of these behaviors. They take our jobs rape our women manipulate my government. We are frustrated because the government doesn't do anything. It is ironic that in many of these cases the justifications are just plain wrong. There is NO justification for these behaviors.
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) for assistance, saying that these are victims of repressive regimes, but that Israel lacks the space and resources to keep them. If the international community declines to help at all, your request still places you in a better light. I don't understand why that's such a bitter pill for you to swallow.![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
Then when the international community starts screeching, renew your request for alternatives. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
