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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » The NSA's warrantless wiretapping is a crime, not a state secret (Page 3)

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Author Topic: The NSA's warrantless wiretapping is a crime, not a state secret
djquag1
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Was King David that good of a ruler? Always seemed a bit of a dick to me.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
AI Wessex,

you should read 'Why Nations Fail' the cynical view matches history extremely well. It suggests that the only reason we aren't living in a political (feudal lords and serfs) and technological world not much different from the middle ages is that the black death wiped out enough people to give serfs labor mobility and limited mobility to become tradesmen, which in turn allowed them to accumulate wealth to force power sharing. Then labor shortages during English settlement of the US and Australia again resulting in reasonably inclusive government and economic institutions.

I haven't read it yet, but I'll add it to my list. Another book that illuminates the subject with different causes and effects (and mostly unintended consequences) is "1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created". He doesn't address the political changes moving from feudalism to the post-feudal state as directly, but demonstrates how the discovery and extraction of silver in the Americas led to profound changes in European society and explores a variety of other factors in the changes in the social, economic and political realms over the succeeding centuries.
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Wayward Son
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Just for the record, it does matter who is doing the wiretapping, at least to partisans.

According to a recent Pew poll:

quote:
Today, only about half of Republicans (52%) say it is acceptable for the NSA to obtain court orders to track phone call records of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism. In January 2006, fully 75% of Republicans said it was acceptable for the NSA to investigate suspected terrorists by listening in on phone calls and reading emails without court approval.

Democrats now view the NSA’s phone surveillance as acceptable by 64% to 34%. In January 2006, by a similar margin (61% to 36%), Democrats said it was unacceptable for the NSA to scrutinize phone calls and emails of suspected terrorists.

(Note: Don't know/Refused responses not included.)

So, yeah, it does matter to a lot of people. [Smile]

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Seneca
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That is the part that boggles my mind. Partisanship in the US is so bad that all the liberals who were excoriating Bush for "shredding the Constitution" are now supporting Obama's EXPANSION of those activities!

...

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Viking_Longship
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I also have to wonder what the response to this or to the inecusable abuse of Bradley Manning would be if it had been the Bush administration doing these things.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Partisanship in the US is so bad that all the liberals who were excoriating Bush for "shredding the Constitution" are now supporting Obama's EXPANSION of those activities!
Technically, only half of them are.
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G3
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Before we take such polling data too seriously, lets think this through. "Hello, I am stranger on the telephone conducting a poll. Do you approve of government monitoring?"

You gonna say what you really think or you gonna say the smart thing?

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Wayward Son
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Well, almost a quarter of Republicans suddenly decided to say the "dumb" thing, while almost a third of Democrats were more comfortable saying the "dumb" thing while Bush was in the White House. So it looks to me like they were just speaking their minds. [Smile]
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G3
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No doubt some were. I think also some were saying whatever they thought would keep the IRS from noticing them.
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LetterRip
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See the discussion I started a few days ago - essentially many partisans answer polls based on how it will reflect on their team regardless of their actual beliefs.

So it could be they actually care who does the act, or it could be that they are 'supporting their team'.

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AI Wessex
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Just a thought, maybe the world has changed?

Question, how many of you think it's ok for the government to collect phone call information in case there's a need to investigate terrorist activity, but not ok for the government to know anything about your guns?

[ June 12, 2013, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Viking_Longship
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Waving hand excitedly "oh oh I want to be Al's strawman!".

Believe it or not there are many people who aren't happy with either one.

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AI Wessex
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"Believe it or not there are many people who aren't happy with either one."

You first, Viking. A lot of people who are adamantly opposed to gun registration were solidly behind the Patriot Act, so I know they're out there.

I'm really curious to see who is worried about which rights, and then of course there is the followup to find out if they thought differently in the past and when they changed their minds and why. Statistically, most Americans are ok with some level of government surveillance of their phone records to protect them against terrorism. How does that group overlap with people who don't want the government to know that they bought a gun to protect their homes from robbers?

All of that presumes that people would answer the questions honestly, which is the real strawman.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
A lot of people who are adamantly opposed to gun registration were solidly behind the Patriot Act, so I know they're out there.


Fair enough, but I don't think a lot of those people are on this forum.
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Seneca
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Some defenders of FISA and the PRISM program have tried to say the 4th Amendment doesn't apply and that the founders never could have envisioned situations like today, however there was an interesting piece I read online that I'm looking for to re-post here which talked about one of the main agitations behind the American Revolution: British Writs of Assistance/General Warrants. They work almost exactly the same way that PRISM and the FISA court do.

In fact, several colonies refused to ratify the constitution unless the 4th Amendment was added, and their suggestions for the wording of it were extremely specific with regards to naming these "writs of assistance" and "general warrants" for mass, non-specific searches.

In truth, the 4th Amendment outlaws PRISM and the current operation of the FISA court both in exact wording and the context and spirit in which it was adopted. Our founding fathers are speaking to us from the grave and our leaders refuse to listen.

[ June 12, 2013, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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TomDavidson
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To be fair, were the Founding Fathers to speak to me from the grave, I probably wouldn't be paying too much attention to the content of their dialogue for the first few speeches, either.
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DarkJello
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I have been ghosting here for some time. The discussions have been lively, and almost always worth the read. +1 to the community.

The gooberment has finally brought me out of observation mode. Contrasting our current situation with the words of the founding fathers indicates, to me at least, quite a divergence from traditional American values. I don't believe America can take much more abuse without imploding, but I am optimistic like that. [Wink]

Finally, one of my fav quotes:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

--George Washington

[ June 13, 2013, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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AI Wessex
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DarkJello, welcome out of the shadows, and as we say to all new members, you are Wrong. In this case you probably are, because like a lot of famous quotes, it's not clear that Washington actually said what he said. We know that Glenn Beck wrote those words on a blackboard and attributed them to Washington, but there's no verifiable direct source from the man himself saying or writing that. So the man the quote is attributed to is revered for his honesty (i.e., he wouldn't have knowingly said something he didn't say, which would have been telling a lie), the source is obscure. Or as Donald Rumsfeld once said, "There are known nuns, unknown nuns and nuns we don't know."

[ June 13, 2013, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Viking_Longship
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Dark Jello,

I like the quote, regardless of who said it.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

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AI Wessex
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"In truth, the 4th Amendment outlaws PRISM and the current operation of the FISA court both in exact wording and the context and spirit in which it was adopted. Our founding fathers are speaking to us from the grave and our leaders refuse to listen."

This is interesting to me, because it implies that businesses can legally do what the government can't legally do. In other words, anybody can buy your web, twitter or phone history from the vendor who possesses it, because it belongs to that vendor rather than to you even though it contains your private information. You can buy it in aggregate or some of it online for a specific individual.

When you go to a web site to shop for a certain item, it's very likely that you'll start getting ads for that item on other sites you visit. You don't own your searches, the web site you searched on does, and your ISP likely has them, too. Google mines your emails, tags your pictures with people's names and stores the physical location where images were captured. Verizon analyzes your call patterns to find out when you make calls, how often, who you call most often, how long you talk and a lot more. Best Buy tracks your shopping history and Amazon will tell you what products you might like to buy based on what you and other people "like you" have bought. Facebook is famous for blatting your personal details all over the place, whether you want them to or not; they own you and want other people, even if they are strangers to you, to know as much about you as possible. Pandora will even tell you what music you probably will want to listen to.

You let all of those places do that. In most cases you *know* they're doing it and welcome that as a convenience feature of the information world we live in.

There was an article about Target last year where a teenage girl started getting flyers in the mail advertising special sales on maternity items. Her father was outraged that they were targeting his daughter for such things. He then found out that they analyzed her shopping patterns and discovered that she had been both buying and simply looking at those items online during a 4 week period. Their software concluded that she had to be pregnant. It turns out they were correct about that and the daughter finally confessed to her father.

Why are companies allowed to manipulate, sell or disclose at no cost information about you that the government can't have?

Do you really have any privacy or any expectation of privacy any more?

[ June 13, 2013, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
because it implies that businesses can legally do what the government can't legally do.
Well, yeah! Ofcourse private individuals and businesses are allowed to do lots and lots of stuff that we have forbidden our governments from doing.

Why is this a surprise to you?

quote:
Why are companies allowed to manipulate, sell or disclose at no cost information about you that the government can't have?
Because it's *our* government, and we can ORDER IT AS WE WISH, and if we tell it THOU SHALT NOT DO THIS THING, then it better frigging obey, or it SHOULD BE FIRED AT BEST, if we are very very lenient -- the proper course of action might even be throwing it in jail or executing its members en masse.

It's our government, our servant, and it SHOULD OBEY US WHEN WE TELL IT "NO!"

[ June 13, 2013, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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PSRT
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I don't think you answered Al's question.
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Seneca
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It's a dumb question.

If a business is doing something bad you can stop shopping there.

You can't get away from the government, literally. No matter where you shop in a country, the government can follow you and order any business you interact with to give up info. If you tried to go live up in the mountains, become totally self sufficient and not use any electricity or shop anywhere the government could still come spy on you with drones, people, etc.

Your only option then would be to leave the country, and the government also controls whether you do that or not. See the difference between government and business?

[ June 13, 2013, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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PSRT
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quote:
It's a dumb question.

If a business is doing something bad you can stop shopping there

That's a dumb answer. Way over 90% of our interactions with a given business have nothing to do with whether or not we shop there. In a lot of ways, businesses have more power over our day to day lives than government, and we have way less control over what businesses do to us than government.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
It's a dumb question.

If a business is doing something bad you can stop shopping there

That's a dumb answer. Way over 90% of our interactions with a given business have nothing to do with whether or not we shop there. In a lot of ways, businesses have more power over our day to day lives than government, and we have way less control over what businesses do to us than government.
Wrong.

Shopping also now includes viewing/listening to/watching content supported by advertising. Don't like it? Don't go to certain websites, don't listen to certain radio, don't watch certain TV, etc etc etc.

[ June 13, 2013, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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PSRT
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That's a dumb definition of shopping. Since I can't know ahead of time who is going to be advertising at entertainment events I chose to engage in, that precludes me from not shopping with a business, by your definition of business. Further, advertising happens in public spaces, so I may have to quit my job in order to avoid a "shopping" at a business that is not my employer, simply because they advertise on the available routes to work. I may have to stop using public transportation because the city I live in accepts advertising.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
It's a dumb question.

If a business is doing something bad you can stop shopping there

That's a dumb answer. Way over 90% of our interactions with a given business have nothing to do with whether or not we shop there. In a lot of ways, businesses have more power over our day to day lives than government, and we have way less control over what businesses do to us than government.
[DOH]
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
[DOH]
This is nothing but an expression of contempt which is completely void of content, and frankly whenever someone does something like that they provide a datapoint that they're incapable of reasoned discussion.

I despise these "gremlins" and the "doh" gremlin is the worst of the lot. Signals nothing but a display of open contempt.

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G3
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And yet saying things like "That's a dumb answer" and "That's a dumb definition of shopping" escapes your critique. You feel compelled to review my use of the emoticon as "nothing but an expression of contempt which is completely void of content" yet gloss over repetitively calling the responses of others "dumb".

Just for you: [DOH]

[ June 13, 2013, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Shopping also now includes viewing/listening to/watching content supported by advertising. Don't like it? Don't go to certain websites, don't listen to certain radio, don't watch certain TV, etc etc etc.
Ask G3 how much he respects people who try to organize boycotts.
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G3
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yeah, ask him! [Roll Eyes]
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TomDavidson
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Alternately, if you don't want to talk to G3 -- and, really, who would? -- you can try to use this forum's execrable search function to get his opinion on the topic.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
[Aris:] Because it's *our* government, and we can ORDER IT AS WE WISH, and if we tell it THOU SHALT NOT DO THIS THING, then it better frigging obey, or it SHOULD BE FIRED AT BEST, if we are very very lenient -- the proper course of action might even be throwing it in jail or executing its members en masse.

It's our government, our servant, and it SHOULD OBEY US WHEN WE TELL IT "NO!"

Obviously not.
quote:
[Seneca] It's a dumb question.

If a business is doing something bad you can stop shopping there.

No, you can't.
quote:
[Aris] I despise these "gremlins" and the "doh" gremlin is the worst of the lot. Signals nothing but a display of open contempt.
You can't even make people stop insulting your intelligence, but you think you can make the government stop what it's doing when you already have known about it for years and (supposedly) have been objecting to it all along?

I heard a story on the radio a couple of days ago about a woman who dated a man briefly a few years ago. She stopped seeing him but he began stalking her and her family and friends online. She had to cancel every single one of her accounts, drop her cell phone service and literally drop out of the social and information realm in order to escape. She succeeded in that limited objective, but look what she gave up. I doubt sincerely Seneca is willing to do that in order to preserve his privacy.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Alternately, if you don't want to talk to G3 -- and, really, who would? -- you can try to use this forum's execrable search function to get his opinion on the topic.

Could you provide a link? I'd like to know his opinion...
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TomDavidson
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I'm sorry; I don't generally provide links.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'm sorry; I don't generally provide links.

[FootInMouth]
You never fail to meet my expectations with the passive-aggressive approach. [LOL]

I did the search for boycott and posts by G3, got one hit in a thread about Bruce Willis and Israel:
quote:
Originally posted by G3:
Yippee-ki-yay, mother****er. You were all thinking it.

So there you have it. Glad we answered that question!

[ June 13, 2013, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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TomDavidson
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Yeah, the search function here is pretty unfortunate. I suppose if Seneca cares enough, he could always ask you.
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G3
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[DOH]
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Aris Katsaris
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Al, you keep confusing the descriptive and the normative. Obviously the government doesn't obey us. What I said is that it SHOULD.

If you disagree with this, speak it clearly.

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Seneca
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Apparently I missed the army of jack booted thugs that Walmart sent out into neighborhoods to force people to shop there, or the armies that businesses are sending out to force people not to become farmers and grow their own food. Silly me.

Hell, our government under Obama has welfare programs designed to send out checks to anyone who claims to have wanted to farm but couldn't get a loan from a bank to purchase farm land because they felt "discriminated against."

Can anyone here really show how anyone is forced to partake of a business?

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