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Author Topic: Admitting to Bias
JWatts
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It's somewhat surprising to have Academics come out and admit bias. It's even more surprising for someone to publish the results. But they did:

quote:

Numerous surveys have found that professors, especially those in some disciplines, are to the left of the general public. But those same -- and other -- surveys have rarely found evidence that left-leaning academics discriminate on the basis of politics. So to many academics, the question of ideological bias is not a big deal.
...
A new study, however, challenges that assumption -- at least in the field of social psychology. The study isn't due to be published until next month (in Perspectives on Psychological Science), and the authors and others are noting limitations to the study. But its findings of bias by social psychologists (even if just a decent-sized minority of them) are already getting considerable buzz in conservative circles. Just over 37 percent of those surveyed said that, given equally qualified candidates for a job, they would support the hiring of a liberal candidate over a conservative candidate. Smaller percentages agreed that a "conservative perspective" would negatively influence their odds of supporting a paper for inclusion in a journal or a proposal for a grant
...
Percentages of Social Psychologists Who Would Be Biased in Various Ways

A "politically conservative perspective" by author would have a negative influence on evaluation of a paper Self 18.6% Colleagues 34.2%

A "politically conservative perspective" by author would have a negative influence on evaluation of a grant proposal Self 23.8% Colleagues 36.9%

Would be reluctant to extend symposium invitation to a colleague who is "politically quite conservative" Self 14.0% Colleagues 29.6%

Would vote for liberal over conservative job candidate if they were equally qualified Self 37.5% Colleagues 44.1%

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G3
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I, for one, am shocked at these results! Shocked I say!
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LetterRip
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Just looked at their questionnaire and it was useless, to see if there was bias they would need to ask the same questions with liberal candidates.

Eg - if there were two candidates and one was known to be extremely liberal, would you choose the more conservative candidate.

Thus we can't differentiate between an antiextremist or politically overt bias against (which is actually desirable since individuals at either extreme tend to be less rationale and hence are not appropriate hires) versus an anticonservative bias which would be inappropriate since it reduces diversity of viewpoints.

[ August 09, 2012, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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PSRT
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Critique
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drewmie
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We've got to accept the reality that educational institutions and academia are liberalizing influences in the classical sense. They will always be somewhat further to the left than society at large. It's the nature of areas like education, journalism, and science. Constantly asking questions and carrying a more objective attitude are requirements for the job, and those are simply not conservative principles. To be otherwise would be to do your job less effectively or to be less interested in the field in the first place.

P.S.- Even a place like BYU shows this. The biology, political science, and fine arts professors are regularly having to deal with small-minded students who think their professor is too liberal. In fact, the student is usually just too stubbornly ignorant. I saw it first hand at BYU time and time again. They even try to preempt it by giving Biology 101 students who are LDS an evolution packet so they don't freak out when they learn they're wrong.

[ August 09, 2012, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

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Pete at Home
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When I was there, Reed Benson used to run the other side of the war on heaven, with that blue packet of prophetic misquotes which he circulated in violation of school policy. [Big Grin] And somehow he stuffed that into his BoM class, so as to brainwash the newbies. Go figure.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Critique

From the critique:
quote:
Similarly, I bet dollars to donuts that bright conservative types are simply going to find academic life unattractive compared to what else they could do with their talents. After all, they would make relatively little money, they would need to spend a large number of years in extremely low paid and temporary positions (graduate student, postdoc, untenured professor), they would have to withstand constant razor sharp criticism of their ideas (for grant proposals and publications), and they would find themselves in an institution that values things for which they often have little sympathy, such as open discourse, critical thinking, equality, questioning of authority, and so on.
[DOH]

Yes, that's a perfect description of all us cave man conservatives. Ugg, hate open discourse. Must club skinny weak liberal man. Bam! Bam! Bam! Ugg, that show him and his stupid thinkin. Now he no not to question authority of caveman with club.

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Pete at Home
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"questioning of authority"

Lefties don't do that anymore, now that they have authority.

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drewmie
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
Yes, that's a perfect description of all us cave man conservatives. Ugg, hate open discourse. Must club skinny weak liberal man. Bam! Bam! Bam! Ugg, that show him and his stupid thinkin. Now he no not to question authority of caveman with club.

It's not meant to be a blanket indictment. It is meant as a very generalized comparison between conservative and liberal cultures. Saying that conservatives are generally less open to critical thinking is a cultural difference. It does not mean that conservatives are stupider. It just means, for example, that they are somewhat more likely to favor cultural preferences over a more objective (i.e. value-less) framework. That is not always a bad thing. It just isn't as conducive to an effective academic environment.
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AI Wessex
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"Lefties don't do that anymore, now that they have authority."

Yes, of course. Next will come family values.

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Pete at Home
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" Saying that conservatives are generally less open to critical thinking is a cultural difference."

It *was*.

Liberal Culture has ain't what it used to be.

As William Hazlitt predicted
,
quote:
If reform were to gain the day, reform would become as vulgar as cant of any other kind. We only shew a spirit of independence and resistance to power, as long as power is against us. As soon as the cause of opposition prevails, its essence and character are gone out of it; and the most flagrant radicalism degenerates into the tamest servility.
... It is essential to the triumph of reform that it should never succeed.
...
whenever any two individuals agree about any one thing, they begin to cant about it, and take the echo of one another's voices for the verdict of truth. Half-a-dozen persons will always make a quorum of credulity and vulgarity.

That's what's happened to liberalism ever since the hippies became the establishment
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Lefties don't do that anymore, now that they have authority."

Yes, of course. Next will come family values.

Yes, once you control the definition of family, you will become great advocates of family values. That's inevitable.
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AI Wessex
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Yes, of course. Lefties are attending courses lately to learn how to defend family values while violating them at the same time. It's a tricky proposition, but if Righties can do it so effortlessly Lefties should be able to master it. Perhaps Newt offers one of the courses online.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
It's not meant to be a blanket indictment. It is meant as a very generalized comparison between conservative and liberal cultures. Saying that conservatives are generally less open to critical thinking is a cultural difference. It does not mean that conservatives are stupider. It just means, for example, that they are somewhat more likely to favor cultural preferences over a more objective (i.e. value-less) framework. That is not always a bad thing. It just isn't as conducive to an effective academic environment.

This certainly sounds like a blanket indictment:

"they would have to withstand constant razor sharp criticism of their ideas (for grant proposals and publications), and they would find themselves in an institution that values things for which they often have little sympathy, such as open discourse, critical thinking, equality, questioning of authority, and so on."

You'll notice how he ended the quote. I think a reasonable person might interpret this to believe that the author finds many despicable qualities with conservatives and he was just listing the worst, not all of them. Thus the concluding "and so on". I would be inclined to think a person who would make such a quote, is not someone who is very objective when discussing a potential Liberal bias among Academia.

I'm curious if I said something like:
"Liberals wouldn't generally enjoy working in the corporate world, where they would have to spend a lot of overtime to get ahead, where they would have to withstand constant razor sharp criticism of their ideas (for ROI calculations and product engineering), and they would find themselves in an institution that values things for which they often have little sympathy, such as customer service, critical thinking, collaborating with international partners, dealing with governmental regulations, tax authorities and so on."

Would you consider that to be a reasonable, objective statement that belongs in a counter-critique of Conservative bias in corporations? Or would you instead, consider that to be an indicator of the conservative bias.

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Pete at Home
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I didn't accuse lefties of being more hypocritical than the Right-wads.

Basically, Lefties have reduced critical thought to the same sort of meaningless self-serving gibber to which Right-wads have reduced "family values." Note that right-wads have no problem tearing husbands from wives and parents from children when it comes to the prison system or immigration. Any more than modern lefties have to rimming authority when it's a lefty at the reins. But the wheel turns, and eventually right-wads will realize that critical thought cuts against corrupt lefties, and lefties will realize that family values cut against corrupt rightwads. Then you'll corrupt those terms as well.

And the wheel keeps turning.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Lefties don't do that anymore, now that they have authority."

Yes, of course. Next will come family values.

Yes, once you control the definition of family, you will become great advocates of family values. That's inevitable.
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Yes, of course. Lefties are attending courses lately to learn how to defend family values while violating them at the same time. It's a tricky proposition, but if Righties can do it so effortlessly Lefties should be able to master it. Perhaps Newt offers one of the courses online.

That's very funny, Al.

If you took the time to understand what I just said, though, you'd be able to make funnier jokes, and perhaps might have some interesting insights.

But that aside, there are family values issues already where Democrats might better take the lead over Republicans.

For example, does it make sense to cut a single mother's welfare off and send her to work with subsidized day care, so she can earn less than the state is paying for her day care, rather than letting her raise her own child?

Does it make sense to deport undocumented but otherwise law-abiding workers who are married to American citizens and supporting American children?

Think about it.

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Greg Davidson
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I wonder how the same questions would work with economists, or professors of marketing or business?
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Critique

From the critique:
quote:
Similarly, I bet dollars to donuts that bright conservative types are simply going to find academic life unattractive compared to what else they could do with their talents. After all, they would make relatively little money, they would need to spend a large number of years in extremely low paid and temporary positions (graduate student, postdoc, untenured professor), they would have to withstand constant razor sharp criticism of their ideas (for grant proposals and publications), and they would find themselves in an institution that values things for which they often have little sympathy, such as open discourse, critical thinking, equality, questioning of authority, and so on.
[DOH]

Yes, that's a perfect description of all us cave man conservatives. Ugg, hate open discourse. Must club skinny weak liberal man. Bam! Bam! Bam! Ugg, that show him and his stupid thinkin. Now he no not to question authority of caveman with club.

Look, he actually admitted it [Smile]
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JWatts
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quote:

quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
[DOH]

Yes, that's a perfect description of all us cave man conservatives. Ugg, hate open discourse. Must club skinny weak liberal man. Bam! Bam! Bam! Ugg, that show him and his stupid thinkin. Now he no not to question authority of caveman with club.

Look, he actually admitted it [Smile]
Admit what? Don't understand. Head hurt! Grab club. Bam! Bam! Bam! Feel much better now. [Cool]
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
[DOH]

Yes, that's a perfect description of all us cave man conservatives. Ugg, hate open discourse. Must club skinny weak liberal man. Bam! Bam! Bam! Ugg, that show him and his stupid thinkin. Now he no not to question authority of caveman with club.

Look, he actually admitted it [Smile]
Admit what? Don't understand. Head hurt! Grab club. Bam! Bam! Bam! Feel much better now. [Cool]
As a Mormon missionary I once jokingly responded to a man who demanded to know how many wives I had, that I wasn't a very good Mormon, so I only had three wives. His jaw dropped and he stared at me for about a second before screaming out, "I knew it!" and slamming the door before I could make it clear that I was only joking. [Smile]
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Pete at Home
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That story pains me even as an Xmo.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
they would find themselves in an institution that values things for which they often have little sympathy, such as open discourse, critical thinking, equality, questioning of authority, and so on.
This doesn't describe any institution of higher learning I have attended or worked for. Institutions that put "women and minorities are encouraged to apply" on their job postings is not an instition that values equality.

Universities put layer upon layer of policies and procedures and beaurocrat on top of beaurocrat so as to make questioning authority impossible. (Sure you can be mad at the president, but that's like blaming Ronald McDonald because you got a bad hamburger.)

There is no open discourse in higher education if one is critical of women and minorities unless you are a woman or a member of said minority, and even then you need to watch your back.

Now if you are already a minstream liberal you may not see it that way (at least point 1 and 3, point 2 is apolitical) but that's like mainstream conservatives who really think Fox News is fair and balanced.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
but that's like mainstream conservatives who really think Fox News is fair and balanced.

I've always thought that slogan was awesome. It's a deliberate poke in the eye at every left leaning media outlet that continuously proclaims it's 'Journalistic neutrality'. [LOL]
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
but that's like mainstream conservatives who really think Fox News is fair and balanced.

I've always thought that slogan was awesome. It's a deliberate poke in the eye at every left leaning media outlet that continuously proclaims it's 'Journalistic neutrality'. [LOL]
I have no patience for those who deal in lies regardless of whom those lies please. Fox News conspires to wipe out any conservative that doesn't toe the Neocon line. You think that's funny?

[ September 16, 2012, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I have no patience for those who deal in lies regardless of whom those lies please.

So, I assume you don't follow Terran news or politics? [Wink]
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I have no patience for those who deal in lies regardless of whom those lies please.

So, I assume you don't follow Terran news or politics? [Wink]
I read.

Crazy huh?

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I have no patience for those who deal in lies regardless of whom those lies please.

So, I assume you don't follow Terran news or politics? [Wink]
I read.

Crazy huh?

No problem. As long as you stay away from books, magazines and newspapers written by humans, that is. [LOL]
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I have no patience for those who deal in lies regardless of whom those lies please.

So, I assume you don't follow Terran news or politics? [Wink]
I read.

Crazy huh?

No problem. As long as you stay away from books, magazines and newspapers written by humans, that is. [LOL]
Seriously what was your point in posting this in the first place? Were you taking issue with the liberal bias in academia or were you just saying "hey look, we're all liars!" ?

If it's the former you shouldn't be celebrating Fox. If it's the latter, I wish you aspired to be something more than just one more lie-monger.

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threads
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He was joking [Razz]
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G3
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Good place for this:
quote:
NBC News Senior Investigative Correspondent Lisa Myers appeared on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" to discuss the growing AP scandal involving the Dept. of Justice secretly obtaining phone records of reporters with the Associated Press.

Myers maintained that it was unlikely that the president knew about the wire tapping because "from a political standpoint," it would anger "one of the president's most important constituencies, the press." Given that, said Myers, "it's hard to imagine they would have green-lighted this thing."

Sometimes the mask slips.
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AI Wessex
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So, now you're saying that the likelihood that Obama *didn't* know about this is more evidence that he orchestrated it. Gotcha.

It looks like the IRS kerfuffle may turn out to be less than people like G3 would hope for, and it may also turn out that nobody high up in the Administration was connected to the AP phone logs, either. Bummer, man, like serious bummer.

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