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Author Topic: Republican National Convention
AI Wessex
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I agree that Obama will be quite credible in the debates, but the heavy lifting he is capable of won't dislodge too many voters, I'm afraid. When Reagan used the debates in 1980 to confound expectations he was still new to that particular national stage. Obama is a well-known quantity and nearly everyone has already made up their minds about him already. Some small fraction of independent voters are still drifting back and forth between the candidates, but that's in the 1-2% range. The hopefully good news is that most of that waffling is among voters in the so-called battleground states. The bottom line is that Obama will prove in the debates that Romney is a liar and that the most vile opinions of him are vicious lies, and yet he still won't be believed.
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threads
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
I think the average voter understands that businesses depend on roads and the police and courts. But they also don't think that "we all built it" is a fair assessment of how businesses are built in this country.

The average person realizes that the Republican slogan is a simplification of what Obama said, but that it captures the essence of the argument. It boils down to a private enterprise vs big government argument.

Liberal's are lying to themselves when they think that they are way smarter than the average man.

Sweeping generalizations for the lose. How on earth do you know what the average person thinks? Or what "liberals" (100+ million people) think about a single issue? If you think that the Republican slogan captures the essence of Obama's argument then argue for that. If you think that sp thinks that he is way smarter than the average man and that he is lying to himself about that then argue for that. Don't appeal to fabricated majority opinions that you have no way of knowing.
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AI Wessex
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"The average person realizes that the Republican slogan is a simplification of what Obama said,"

It's a simplification only in the sense of it being a carefully culled subset of his words. It's in no way a real subset of what he was actually saying. You're basically saying the "average person" isn't interested in content or context, only in hearing what they want to hear or what they are being told to believe.

"Liberal's are lying to themselves when they think that they are way smarter than the average man."

The fact that you make that statement at all shows a lack of insight into how other people view problems we all share in common.

[ August 31, 2012, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I don't know what Romney plans to do when in office about foriegn policy. I am afraid he's going to do a Bush on this, put his trust in his advisors, but then pick people like John Bolton and Wolfowitz to advise him.

Obama's foriegn policy is to a large degree the same as Clinton and G W Bush, just less openly belicose.

I agree with your analysis. And I expect Romney's foreign policy to be in line with his 3 predecessors. But whereas I don't expect Romney's foreign policy to be any better than Obama's I expect his economic policies to be better.

I certainly don't want to wake up in the morning 4 years from now and listen to Jay Carney explain how the poor economy is still Bush's fault.

But if Romney wins the "Obama wasn't interventionist enough!" lie wins and the Neocons gain power. He's already stated that he's open to sending troops into Syria in support of a rebellion about which we seem to know very little. Does that seem wise or prudent to you?

What is it you expect Romney to do about the economy anyway?

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JWatts
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by threads:
Liberal's are lying to themselves when they think that they are way smarter than the average man.

Sweeping generalizations for the lose. How on earth do you know what the average person thinks? Or what "liberals" (100+ million people) think about a single issue?
I did not say that all Liberal's felt this way nor do I think that or mean to imply it. Indeed, it's a pretty distinct minority. However, Liberal's who do think this way are deluding themselves.
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AI Wessex
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As would be a distinct minority of conservatives, Christians, atheists, Dodger fans and gun enthusiasts, among other groups.
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DonaldD
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quote:
I did not say that all Liberal's felt this way nor do I think that or mean to imply it. Indeed, it's a pretty distinct minority. However, Liberal's who do think this way are deluding themselves.
So you are saying that the subset of liberals (or were you talking specifically of "Liberals"? [Wink] ) who think they are smarter than the average man are not in fact smarter than the average man? Or or you simply saying that the subset of liberals who think they are smarter than the average man but are not smarter than the average man are in fact not smarter than the average man?

Something to think about: depending on how you define 'average man', fully 50% of men (less one man) are smarter than the average man. Suggesting that liberals who think they are smart are actually less smart than average is a pretty radical idea, one that needs more than hand-waving support - unless, that is, you assume that liberals are in large number dumber than the average man, which would require a whole other bunch of strong support.

Maybe you meant that this subset of liberals thinks that all liberals (not just themeselves, or not just the set that you lumped together as those holding the position) are smarter than average. But that wasn't evident in your wording.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
As would be a distinct minority of conservatives, Christians, atheists, Dodger fans and gun enthusiasts, among other groups.

True, but I see it far more often among Liberal's. It's also noteworthy that no Liberal's on this board have actually taken offense at any of the bigoted comments. You would think that the bigots on the board would have to defend their posts, not the conservative who is claiming:

quote:
I don't believe that the average person is as gullible and stupid as you seem to think they are.
These comments represent bigotry in my opinion:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
...Instead, it appears to be a highly deceitful manipulation of the ignorant perceptions of the stupid plebes
..dumb folks...
the stubbornly ignorant masses.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I don't believe that the average person is as gullible and stupid as you seem to think they are.
Sadly, the average person is probably more stupid.
Do the posters who express such views have to defend them? No. Instead, I'm attacked. Seriously go get some perspective.
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DonaldD
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That is not bigotry, you understand.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
But if Romney wins the "Obama wasn't interventionist enough!" lie wins and the Neocons gain power. He's already stated that he's open to sending troops into Syria in support of a rebellion about which we seem to know very little. Does that seem wise or prudent to you?

I don't see that his position is notably different than Obama's position.

quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
What is it you expect Romney to do about the economy anyway?

I expect him to repeal Obamacare. I expect him to limit Federal regulatory growth. I expect him to tone down the anti-business/anti-Wall Street rhetoric.
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Adam Masterman
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JWatts, weren't you the one arguing that the GOP's deceptive parsing of an Obama soundbite would be "effective"? That doesn't imply much confidence in the competence of average voters either. "We can cull the context and get people to think that Obama said this outrageous thing, what an effective strategy." That doesn't feel any less contemptuous of the voting public than Tom's statements. Tom *is* contemptuous of the voting public, as is sp, but they both own it pretty straightforwardly. Its honest, at least...
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
JWatts, weren't you the one arguing that the GOP's deceptive parsing of an Obama soundbite would be "effective"?

No.
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AI Wessex
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"True, but I see it far more often among Liberal's.

Again, it says something about you, that you cheer the home team even when they're behind and aren't willing to say anything nice about the opposition. You're saying that the above comment doesn't apply equally to conservatives, which suggests that you may well actually belong to the group of conservatives who are less intelligent than the average person. [Also, I have to agree with SP that you used the possessive and also capitalized the term. Are you aware you are doing that?]

"It's also noteworthy that no Liberal's on this board have actually taken offense at any of the bigoted comments. You would think that the bigots on the board would have to defend their posts..."

You haven't attacked SP or Tom, either. I don't argue with what seem to me to be informed opinions, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

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AI Wessex
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"Do the posters who express such views have to defend them? No. Instead, I'm attacked. Seriously go get some perspective."

You're attacked because you're defending lies and trying to argue for their utility. They are offering personal opinions.

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Viking_Longship
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You expect him to repeal Obamacare. Which will fix the economy in what way? Obamacare hasn't even been implemented. You think that will convince employers to start hiring?


You expect him to limit Federal regulatory growth. Why? In what areas? Where would you like less Federal oversight?

You expect him to tone down the anti-business/anti-Wall Street rhetoric. Is Wall-Street above criticism as well as the law?

I don't see waiting for Wall Street and big buisiness or the president to save our economy as very conservative.

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Viking_Longship
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Liberals is the plural of liberal btw.
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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
JWatts, weren't you the one arguing that the GOP's deceptive parsing of an Obama soundbite would be "effective"?

No.
Adam, to be fair to JWatts, his claim of effectiveness was limited to a specific Romney quote
quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
Here was a response from Romney:

"“I know that there’s some people that think what the president said was just a gaffe,” Romney said last week at a truck company in Roxbury. “It wasn’t a gaffe. It was instead his ideology. The president does, in fact, believe that people who build enterprises like this really aren’t responsible for it, that in fact it’s a collective success of the whole society that somehow builds enterprises like this.”"

That's a pretty effective argument to make. It will sway some votes.

So in practice, JWatts' claim was limited to Romney's deceptive parsing not the GOP's (as has been pointed out numerous time and as JWatts disputes, by the words in that very speech the president does NOT " believe that people who build enterprises like this really aren’t responsible for it".)

[ August 31, 2012, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: DonaldD ]

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D.W.
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And you expect this will have a beneficial effect. Don't forget that part.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Liberals is the plural of liberal btw.

Thank you VL. I'll make a note of that.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
You expect him to repeal Obamacare. Which will fix the economy in what way? Obamacare hasn't even been implemented. You think that will convince employers to start hiring?

You expect him to limit Federal regulatory growth. Why? In what areas? Where would you like less Federal oversight?

You expect him to tone down the anti-business/anti-Wall Street rhetoric. Is Wall-Street above criticism as well as the law?

I don't see waiting for Wall Street and big buisiness or the president to save our economy as very conservative.

VL, you've got access to the internet. You can pretty easily look up this information yourself. The Romney campaign has a web site dedicated to his positions.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I expect him to repeal Obamacare. I expect him to limit Federal regulatory growth. I expect him to tone down the anti-business/anti-Wall Street rhetoric.
Put simply, you expect him to go back to the kinds of policies that caused this mess in the first place, in a vague hope that things will turn out differently this time, rather than trying to actually trying to use tools that can work to enable and promote growth.

How exactly to Romeny's nominal plans to shrink the money supply even further and open the door to even more more nonproductive financialization and fraud lead to growth?

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Wayward Son
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The thing is, JWatts, is that when we liberals look at this Obama quote-mine, taking his words out of context and twisting them into something he didn't say because Conservatives know, in their hearts, that Obama really believes it in his heart--well, that's a pretty dumb contention. [Smile]

And, as you indicated, it is very effective with some people. Otherwise, Republican leadership wouldn't be constantly repeating such a dumb contention whenever they can, even at their national convention.

So what are we poor liberals supposed to believe? That our analysis of Obama's speech is wrong? (If it is, please show us how.) Or that Republicans are pushing a lie and a whole bunch of other Republicans are buying it? How can they not see, in a case so plain as this, that the contention is an out-and-out lie? What is preventing them from parsing sentences as well as we can?

It's not that liberals want to believe that we are smarter than the average conservative; conservatives are forcing us to believe that, because they are acting so dumb. [Smile]

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
It's not that liberals want to believe that we are smarter than the average conservative; conservatives are forcing us to believe that, because they are acting so dumb. [Smile]

Or alternately, the conservative explanation for Obama's statement makes sense and Liberals are denying it due to cognitive bias. And it's not average conservatives that are in doubt. They are mostly going to vote for Romney anyway, just like most average liberals are going to vote for Obama.

These campaign slogans are pitched at the non-committed voters more than anyone. And you don't see any outcry from the middle about the slogan: "We Did Build It".

So, we have
Theory 1) Average person is stupid, because the Republicans have taken a comment out of context and they don't realize they are being duped.

Theory 2) Average person realizes the slogan does actually capture a valid difference in world view between the sides and tend to lean towards the Republican point of view on this issue.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

It's not that liberals want to believe that we are smarter than the average conservative; conservatives are forcing us to believe that, because they are acting so dumb. [Smile]

I hope you, and all the other liberals, continue this arrogance and convince yourself of your superiority for another couple of months. I'm pretty sure you can.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
You expect him to repeal Obamacare. Which will fix the economy in what way? Obamacare hasn't even been implemented. You think that will convince employers to start hiring?

You expect him to limit Federal regulatory growth. Why? In what areas? Where would you like less Federal oversight?

You expect him to tone down the anti-business/anti-Wall Street rhetoric. Is Wall-Street above criticism as well as the law?

I don't see waiting for Wall Street and big buisiness or the president to save our economy as very conservative.

VL, you've got access to the internet. You can pretty easily look up this information yourself. The Romney campaign has a web site dedicated to his positions.
I am asking why they're your positions. A lot of what the Romney website says is unspecefic.

I will say if his website is any indication of where he's at in regards to foriegn policy he's a bomb waiting to go off. You don't just put on the web for all to see that you're planning to undermine the government of a nuclear power.

Very imprudent.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
These campaign slogans are pitched at the non-committed voters more than anyone. And you don't see any outcry from the middle about the slogan: "We Did Build It".
You're falsely conflating "non-committed" and "middle" (as you often do with "independent" and "middle" as well)

You're also setting up an impossible condition, because if there was such an outcry from someone, they'd no longer fall completely into the "uncommitted" in the short term at least. Rather it's those that have not yet committed to voting for either of the major candidates (or anyone at all, for that matter) that are specifically the audience here, not the ones presenting a case.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I am asking why they're your positions. A lot of what the Romney website says is unspecefic.

Ok, but that's a lot of questions and I like to think about things before I answer so let's take it one question at a time.

quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I will say if his website is any indication of where he's at in regards to foriegn policy he's a bomb waiting to go off.

VL, I just don't see this as a realistic concern. I might well have voted against Newt Gingrich were he the Republican candidate because I think he is too intemperate for the position. But Romney strikes me as a cautious (and yes somewhat boring) leader who's primary focus is the domestic economy.

quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
You don't just put on the web for all to see that you're planning to undermine the government of a nuclear power.

Very imprudent.

Yet, this is Obama's stated goal. You do realize the Obama administration has enacted economic sanctions against Iran and is actively seeking to force the Iranian government to change it's policies and forgo nuclear weapons development. In addition, the Stuxnet virus released in 2010 was more than likely a joint Israeli and US effort that sabotaged Iranian nuclear centrifuges.

quote:
President Barack Obama says he means it when he insists it's unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon. "I don't bluff," Obama said in an interview published Friday.

In his most expansive remarks on the issue, Obama told The Atlantic magazine that Iran and Israel both understand that "a military component" is one of a mix of many options for dealing with Iran, along with sanctions and diplomacy.
...
"I think that the Israeli government recognizes that, as president of the United States, I don't bluff," he said in the interview. "I also don't, as a matter of sound policy, go around advertising exactly what our intentions are. But (both) governments recognize that when the United States says it is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon, we mean what we say."
...
Obama also rejected as unreasonable a more limited policy of containment in confronting Iran's nuclear efforts.

"You're talking about the most volatile region in the world," he said. "It will not be tolerable to a number of states in that region for Iran to have a nuclear weapon and them not to have a nuclear weapon. Iran is known to sponsor terrorist organizations, so the threat of proliferation becomes that much more severe. "

He also pointed to economic turmoil in Iran and reiterated that sanctions against the Iranian regime are starting to bite.

Link

I could understand how you could refuse to vote for either candidate over the foreign policy stance. Clearly both are far more hawkish than Ron Paul is.

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DonaldD
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I didn't realize that Iran was considered a nuclear power, yet...
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Viking_Longship
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JWatts I'm talking about him saying he's trying to undermine the Russian government and going to attempt to gain greater influence in their "near abroad."

If he is willing to post this openly he's either NOT cuatious or he's NOT intelligent.

You live in Tennesse so you're voting for Romney whether you want to or not. I live in New Jersey so really I'm voting for Obama even though I'm pulling the lever for Johnson.

But let's not engage in wishful thinking in the meantime. Romney appears not only unprepared for foriegn policy but dangerously hubristic.

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philnotfil
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From Romney's acceptance speech:
quote:
Americans have supported this president in good faith.
Is he implying that Republicans aren't Americans?
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Ron Lambert
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I never realized Clint Eastwood was that good a comedian. It was like a celebrity roast of Obama.

All the personal testimonials from common people who have been helped by Mitt Romney--some really emotional, impressive stuff--surely should give the Obama propagandists pause before they launch any more negative attack ads trying to depict Romney as uncaring about people. The testimonials about how Romney and Bain Capital saved their company and saved thousands of jobs, should make it suicide for the Obama campaign to try to demonize Bain Capital any more. It is beginning to look like Romney is one of the most truly good men who have ever run for president. But then, if the Obama campaign stops trying to characterize Romney as a "vampire capitalist," what else will they have to run on? They certainly can't run on Obama's record. But since the word is out about the truth of Romney's actual generosity and compassion, such tactics can only blow up in their faces.

Commentators on NBC and CBS as well as FNC could only complain that the Romney campaign had not put forward these testimonials earlier.

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velcro
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JWatts wrote
quote:
As I've said in the past, I'm not in anyway responsible for meeting any standards that you create. Feel free to post what you want. But don't:

a) Call me out by name as if you have the authority to force me to answer your questions
b) Insinuate I'm lying when I state an opinion.
c) Call into question my credibility


Obviously I can't force you to answer any questions. I can only point out your most egregious contradictions and give you the opportunity to explain. When you respond with obfuscation, I repeat the question, addressed to you, so your avoidance of the question becomes more obvious to the casual reader. This really brings out the point that you have no argument or supporting sources, and makes the established facts stand out in the overall discussion. If that bothers you, then either address my perfectly valid questions, or come up with some arguments and facts that are valid, and I will stop.

I never said you were lying. I said you were calling Romney's lie "an effective argument". Don't make false accusations about me again.

I called into question your credibility (on another thread) when you said something completely, demonstrably wrong and wouldn't admit it when clear, proven facts were presented to you by several posters.

There is such thing as truth and falsehood. When you spout falsehood, I call you out. Deal with it.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Or alternately, the conservative explanation for Obama's statement makes sense and Liberals are denying it due to cognitive bias.
This is the most likely explanation of why conservatives are believing the Republicans stance, too.

quote:
So, we have
Theory 1) Average person is stupid, because the Republicans have taken a comment out of context and they don't realize they are being duped.

Theory 2) Average person realizes the slogan does actually capture a valid difference in world view between the sides and tend to lean towards the Republican point of view on this issue.

Oddly enough, those two alternatives are not mutually exclusive. [Smile]

Of course, theory 2 rests on the idea that Republicans capture the world view of Democrats better than Democrats do themselves. (Which opens the possibility that Democrats capture the Republicans world view better than Republicans do themselves. [Wink] ) Which brings up a simple question:

Do you believe you will get a truer picture of someone's views from the opposition or from the person himself?

The answer to that question will show which theory is more likely. [Big Grin]

quote:
I hope you, and all the other liberals, continue this arrogance and convince yourself of your superiority for another couple of months. I'm pretty sure you can.
As I hope you and your fellow Republicans continue with your arrogance of believing you can lie to the voters (about "You Didn't Build That," about Obama eliminating the work requirement for welfare, about Obama being a Muslim Communist born in Kenya, about creationism being a scientific theory worthy of teaching at schools, about global warming definitely not occuring, about only liberals being arrogant and thinking the people are stupid, etc., etc.), because one of these days the people will see through you and slap you down so hard your ears will ring.

I look forward to that day. [Smile]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
... because one of these days the people will see through you and slap you down so hard your ears will ring.

I look forward to that day. [Smile]

Ever notice how often you guys go for violent imagery? Yeah ... go ahead, make my day. [Smile]

Speaking of favorite moments at the RNC, here's my top one:
quote:
Republican National Convention protesters sobbed in each other’s arms as their weeklong series of protests came to an abrupt and unremarkable end.

<snip>

Lash, 26, described himself as a “conservative” and “a member of the Libertarian Party for six years” as he sobbed on the shoulder of Mike, a fellow protester.

“I love that we have an anarchist forum here, and I really love us, but I hate that our forum can’t even talk with their conservative forum,” he said. “The police just silence us, the Republicans just silence us. We are just getting silenced everywhere we go. It’s like no one wants to even hear what we have to say.”

Yeah, it's exactly like that. [LOL] [LOL]

Well, at least the DNC is coming right up and they'll be welcomed with open arms there won't they!

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
The testimonials about how Romney and Bain Capital saved their company and saved thousands of jobs, should make it suicide for the Obama campaign to try to demonize Bain Capital any more. It is beginning to look like Romney is one of the most truly good men who have ever run for president.
Is that your standard for making determinations of who is the most truly good men to have run for President? So if you saw the same number of people making the same number of assertions about the positive characteristics of someone else, you would be similarly persuaded?.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Ever notice how often you guys go for violent imagery?
Strange. I would have thought that conservatives learned from their mommas that when you lie, you get spanked. [Wink]
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AI Wessex
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Gx has been posted his concerns for years about being the target of violence from liberals, people who think that AGW is a problem and other weirdos.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Well, at least the DNC is coming right up and they'll be welcomed with open arms there won't they!
I can't speak for the entire Democratic Party, but I personally would certainly welcome any libertarians who feel that the Republican platform represents oppressively intrusive social policies and excessively interventionist foreign affairs.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Well, at least the DNC is coming right up and they'll be welcomed with open arms there won't they!
I can't speak for the entire Democratic Party, but I personally would certainly welcome any libertarians who feel that the Republican platform represents oppressively intrusive social policies and excessively interventionist foreign affairs.
Right until they mentioned cutting social programs.
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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I don't believe that the average person is as gullible and stupid as you seem to think they are.
Sadly, the average person is probably more stupid.
"Think about how stupid the average person is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that."
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