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Author Topic: Duh Debates
AI Wessex
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"As far as energy goes, a quick note: I don't know how gas prices were where they were debating, but /my/ gas went over $4.00 a gallon well before Obama took office, and I'm in Texas for goodness' sake."

Gas prices nationally in Jan/08 were about $3 and in Dec/08 were under $2. Obama is right that the reason for the drop was the economic downturn as there was no particular change in the supply to justify it.

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DonaldD
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CPI annual increases averaged 1.9% over Obama's tenure, whereas they increased on average by 2.8% during Bush's terms. CPI has been higher of late, however, but if one is going to lay recent increases at the president's feet, then one should also accept that he was responsible for lower increases earlier in his term (both claims being silly, but it is the silly season)

Or we're you simply disputing the basic concepts of MMT, noel? In which case, being dismissive of Pyrtolin for accepting a different yet established monetary theory than you, rather than pointing out your disagreement with the theory, actually makes you look, well, silly.

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AI Wessex
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Pete, I found the transcript by googling "Biden Ryan debate transcript" several days ago. I'm on my cell now and can't mix links with typing.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Pyrtolin,

I was already aware that you live in an alternate reality.

But were you aware that he lived in an alternate reality of the alternate reality? An (alternate reality)^2. [Razz]
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Economic growth is all well and good, but there's not much evidence to support the notion that US gas prices will fall dramatically if we only ramp up domestic production. Oil is priced by a global market and the US' ability to affect it through increases in domestic production is limited.

Sure, I agree with that. However, that's a far cry from saying that increased production won't have any relation to domestic gas prices. Furthermore, the economic effects of the domestic oil production are significant in their own rights, in addition to any beneficial lowering of gas prices.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Or we're you simply disputing the basic concepts of MMT, noel? In which case, being dismissive of Pyrtolin for accepting a different yet established monetary theory than you, rather than pointing out your disagreement with the theory, actually makes you look, well, silly.

Plenty of economists (probably most) think neo-Chartalism is completely unrealistic, if not silly. It's a fringe theory, though it's certainly not a completely crackpot idea. However, Pyrtolin often takes stances that are on the fringe, even for neo-Chartalists.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Pete, for the sake of the country, I hope Obama makes an issue of Romney's parting with Church policy on illegal immigrants. It would afford a perfect juxtaposition of National vs. International ecclesiastical interests. That contrast worked very well for JFK.
The last thing Mitt Romney needs to be doing right now is drawing attention to his religous beliefs beyond bland generic statements along the "people of faith" line.

[ October 17, 2012, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Let's see who attacks her. The winner's side never attacks the moderator.

More than that I really want to hear what G# thought [Smile] [Big Grin] .

I don't recall a lot of "Jim Leher was useless" comments from Republicans after the first debate.

[ October 17, 2012, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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noel c.
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Donald D,

The price of gold has risen from -$800/ounce to almost $1,900/ounce during the same four-year period that fuel doubled in price.

Would you attribute this to supply reduction, demand increase, or something more obvious?

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Gas prices hit about $4/gallon toward the end of Bush's last term, but plummeted to about $2 right before Obama was elected, allowing for the technically correct but disingenuous statement that gas prices went from $2 to $4 while Obama was in office.

The gist of what Obama was going for here is that gas prices then were low because the economy was in the dumper - and they're high now because the economy is so great! Yeah, good point there Barry. Idiot.
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Viking_Longship
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Lewis Grizzard once described political debates as being like a rat shoot. The rats claim victory "look how many of us lived!" and the shooters claim victory "of course we let SOME of them live, we want to have another rat shoot!".
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AI Wessex
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"The gist of what Obama was going for here is that gas prices then were low because the economy was in the dumper - and they're high now because the economy is so great! Yeah, good point there Barry. Idiot."

It's clear that the opposite of any point is that Obama is an idiot. Reminds me of Gingrich complaining about how Obama handled Libya 18 months ago. When he was taking too long to get engaged he was showing weakness, and when he then made his moves he was acting rashly.

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noel c.
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VL,

You're probably right. If Romney avvoids the illegal immigration problem, nobody will notice that he is Mormon.

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G3
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So who "won"? We all like the polls, let's go to them. CBS and CNN's post-debate polls give the edge to Barry:
quote:
In a CBS News poll, 37 percent of 525 uncommitted voters who watched the debate declared Obama the winner, compared to 30 percent who said the same of Romney; 33 percent said it was a tie. A CNN ORC International poll of 457 registered voters gave the debate to the president by a 7 percentage point margin, 46 percent to 39 percent.

The CBS News poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points; the CNN poll's margin is 4.5 points.

So that's your headline and that's all you need to know right? But, let's check the specifics, shall we?

quote:
Romney was seen as better able to handle most issues. he had an 18-point edge among registered voters on the economy (58 percent to Obama's 40 percent ); a 3-point edge on health care (49 percent to 46 percent); a 7-point edge on taxes (51 percent to 44 percent); and, largest of all, a 23-point edge on the deficit (59 percent to 36 percent).
And finally, it's Romney at 49-46 on Leadership.

If you dig into it, you see that Romney comes out ahead on almost all issues. The headline of "Obama Wins" is kind of like saying the Patriots won Super Bowl XLVI. Yeah, Giant's scored more points, sure, but lets give the Patriots the win. Similarly, Romney scored more points, sure, but lets give the Barry the win.

Most telling:
quote:
MSNBC's panel of undecided voters swayed toward Mitt Romney after tonight's presidential debate.
MSNBC, the home of Leg Tingles hisself can't go in the bag deep enough to cover it up. That tells you more about actual winners and losers in the debate than anything else.
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AI Wessex
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" That tells you more about actual winners and losers in the debate than anything else."

Whatever you say, boss, whatever you say. You should go here if you need an endorphin booster.

[ October 17, 2012, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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TomDavidson
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It's actually kind of funny how G3 gets all interested in drilling down into issues and looking for nuance when he needs to confirm his existing biases. [Smile]
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noel c.
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G3,

I think that the left is encouraged because Barry appears to have recovered his testicles, at least stylistically.

Where he is headed for trouble is what most already suspect intuitively... that fact-checking is his downfall.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
It's actually kind of funny how G3 gets all interested in drilling down into issues and looking for nuance when he needs to confirm his existing biases. [Smile]

Even funnier, how you don't. Here, just for you: [FootInMouth]
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AI Wessex
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"Where he is headed for trouble is what most already suspect intuitively... that fact-checking is his downfall."

Noel, do you think Romney made any fact-checking errors? If so, might he suffer from them, too?

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
G3,

I think that the left is encouraged because Barry appears to have recovered his testicles, at least stylistically.

I think you're right. The re-emergence of "Angry Barry" is what the left has been craving. They love the hate, fo sheezy.

quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Where he is headed for trouble is what most already suspect intuitively... that fact-checking is his downfall.

I disagree. Fact checking has never really been done on Barry's utterances - at least not by the media. I don't see them starting now.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
VL,

You're probably right. If Romney avvoids the illegal immigration problem, nobody will notice that he is Mormon.

Hey I'm all for Romney making his religion an issue a few weeks before the election.
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Viking_Longship
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G3 you going to provide a link to that MSNBC story or do we just have to take it on faith?

Undecided Walmart Moms say Obama won

Story on CNN and CBS pol

Romney was visably nervous through much of the debate, his voice was pitched higher and he kept stuttering. In the second part of the debate he seemed angry ehough to get past his fear.

Why is he so hot to give guns to Syrian rebels who we know are working with Al Queda and have been deliberatly starving unarmed Christian villages?

[ October 17, 2012, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Or we're you simply disputing the basic concepts of MMT, noel? In which case, being dismissive of Pyrtolin for accepting a different yet established monetary theory than you, rather than pointing out your disagreement with the theory, actually makes you look, well, silly.

Plenty of economists (probably most) think neo-Chartalism is completely unrealistic, if not silly. It's a fringe theory, though it's certainly not a completely crackpot idea. However, Pyrtolin often takes stances that are on the fringe, even for neo-Chartalists.
You could say the same thing about the Austrian school theory as well, but that wouldn't excuse someone of being dismissive of an Austrian school proponent.

Actually, I take some of that back - I doubt most economists think either is "completely unrealistic" but rather that some of the assumptions and therefore the conclusions are misplaced. Regardless of proclivity, there are valid ideas within both.

[ October 17, 2012, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: DonaldD ]

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noel c.
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Al,

Where Romney is vunerable to fact-checking is on the consistency of positions over his political career, and that does concern me a great deal. During this presidential run, he has simply avoided specifics that would sour the entitlement consumers within the electorate. Actual misrepresentation he has done a pretty good job of avoiding, and on economic issues he served Barry his head.

VL,

Odd as it may seem, Romney did make his faith a point of emphasis during the debate. It remains to be seen what the effect will be.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
VL,

Odd as it may seem, Romney did make his faith a point of emphasis during the debate. It remains to be seen what the effect will be.

Maybe I missed that, when?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Anyone have whole debate links for the VP debate or for the whole debate?

Complete VP debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3roG09O6T4
Transcript:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/vice-presidential-debate-transcript-danvilel-ky-oct-11/story?id=17457175#.UH7Gg8XWzTo


Complete 2nd President Debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEpCrcMF5Ps

Transcript:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/2012-presidential-debate-president-obama-and-mitt-romneys-remarks-at-hofstra-university-on-oct-16-running-transcript/2012/10/16/ be8bfb9a-17dd-11e2-9855-71f2b202721b_story.html

Note from that transcript:
quote:
Each candidate has as much as two minutes to respond to a common question, and there will be a two-minute follow-up. The audience here in the hall has agreed to be polite and attentive -- no cheering or booing or outbursts of any sort.
So when Romney kept claiming that he should get the last word on any given issue, he was wrong- the rules as presented there defined who got to got first and who got to go second, and nothing about order after that when the moderator allowed them more open discussion for additional follow ups.

[ October 17, 2012, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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noel c.
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VL,

It was early in the exchange, are you interested enough to have me review the video?

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:

Where he is headed for trouble is what most already suspect intuitively... that fact-checking is his downfall.

The most brutal fact-check of the campaign thus far.

What I find most telling about this part actually came after this clip ends: Romney's response gets drowned out by applause for Crowley. Mitt getting called on a lie went over really well with the crowd; too bad it was on such an irrelevant topic.

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Viking_Longship
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No I'll check the transcript pyr provided later. ( You've got kids, you know what watching TV is like with a baby, I seriously might have missed it while my daughter was fussing.)
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:

Odd as it may seem, Romney did make his faith a point of emphasis during the debate. It remains to be seen what the effect will be.

Actually, he rather skillfully managed to remind people he was a Christian, while avoiding the fact that he was LDS; he called himself a "pastor in my church", which was the first time I've heard that term used in place of Bishop in an LDS context. Pete, drewmie, is pastor a common LDS term, or was Mitt playing down his denomination?
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noel c.
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Adam,

"There you go again." The particular "lie" you are referring to was not a lie at all.

Romney should have pursued Obama's use of the word "terror" where his subsequent narrative was "spontaneous intolerance". The next debate will tear this scab open for a re-examination, just watch.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The particular "lie" you are referring to was not a lie at all.
I believe you're right. I believe it was a mistake.

Romney's "I asked for a binder full of women" line, though, was an actual lie.

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noel c.
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... Adam, he has used "pastor" before to describe the role of an LDS bishop, which is perfectly accurate.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
... Adam, he has used "pastor" before to describe the role of an LDS bishop, which is perfectly accurate.

I didn't ask if it was "accurate"; I asked if Mormons ever, or typically, call their Bishops "pastors". I can guess the answer from your response, but Pete or drewmie would just tell me directly, so I'll wait for that.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The particular "lie" you are referring to was not a lie at all.
I believe you're right. I believe it was a mistake.

Romney had a very aggressive pre-planned attack, centered on the idea that Obama never referred to the attack as terror until two weeks after it happened. Even a mistake, in that context, is a lie; if you want to claim something about what the president said, then you need to actually check what the president said.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by edgmatt:
- He did not answer the one man's question about Benghazi. He completely avoided it.

That's not true at all:

quote:
And when it comes to this issue, when I say that we are going to find out exactly what happened, everybody will be held accountable. And I am ultimately responsible for what’s taking place there because these are my folks, and I’m the one who has to greet those coffins when they come home. You know that I mean what I say.
That's a very direct answer to the question, even if it's somewhat unsatisfying because they're still in the process of determining where the breakdown occurred.
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noel c.
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... Not only can you guess the answer, but guess correctly. Honestly Adam, are you always this anal retentive? If Romney had said that he served as a Bishop, and Stake President for a total of ten years, are you implying that the flames of anti-mormonism would have been ignited?... or that listeners would have just wondered what that meant?

[ October 17, 2012, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lewis Grizzard once described political debates as being like a rat shoot. The rats claim victory "look how many of us lived!" and the shooters claim victory "of course we let SOME of them live, we want to have another rat shoot!".

I think Grizzard is wrong about that. Politicians aren't generally that humane nor do they tend to think that far ahead. [Wink]
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:

Odd as it may seem, Romney did make his faith a point of emphasis during the debate. It remains to be seen what the effect will be.

Actually, he rather skillfully managed to remind people he was a Christian, while avoiding the fact that he was LDS; he called himself a "pastor in my church", which was the first time I've heard that term used in place of Bishop in an LDS context. Pete, drewmie, is pastor a common LDS term, or was Mitt playing down his denomination?
It wasn't used in an LDS context. It was an LDS person talking to a bunch of nonmembers.

When talking with nonmember friends I always say minister when I mean Bishop.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
And when it comes to this issue, when I say that we are going to find out exactly what happened, everybody will be held accountable. And I am ultimately responsible for what’s taking place there because these are my folks, and I’m the one who has to greet those coffins when they come home. You know that I mean what I say.
That's a very direct answer to the question, even if it's somewhat unsatisfying because they're still in the process of determining where the breakdown occurred.
The question was:
quote:
We were sitting around, talking about Libya, and we were reading and became aware of reports that the State Department refused extra security for our embassy in Benghazi, Libya, prior to the attacks that killed four Americans. Who was it that denied enhanced security and why?
Obama did not answer the question.
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