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Author Topic: Duh Debates
Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
[DOH] Yes, the ambassador died of smoke inhalation. The attackers couldn't reach him in the secure room so they set the building on fire with diesel fuel. And then he died of smoke inhalation. The attackers killed him. It wasn't some incidental event.

Did the attackers even know that he, specifically was in the building? Were they sure that he would just happen to be there on Sept 11? I didn't say that they didn't kill him, but the claim was that they were actively targeting him for assassination. His death was incidental to the attack, not the point of it.

quote:
It was a planned attack that succeeded in killing the ambassador. The administration spent weeks claiming that the attack was not planned, but was a spontaneous riot. Ambassador Rice went on the Sunday talk shows to do damage control and try and shift blame away from the administration. It was all a snow job. And anyone defending it at this point is denying the clear facts.
Do you have any proof that intelligence was not initially reporting it to be unplanned. The only way that accusation can stand is if the initial reports did not, in fact suggest that it was a protest that evolved into an attack.

quote:
The frigging US State Department has said that it never believe the whole 'spontaneous' attack story. It's pretty obvious that the administration was making the story up for political cover.
It's pretty obvious that, because they didn't buy the story, they kept up the investigation until they had evidence that told a more plausible story, not that the initial reports, that were all the administration had to work with until all the facts were it, didn't indicate something different from what they eventually put together.

[ October 18, 2012, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I'm wondering why the issue of LDS paternalism hasn't been brought up. Maybe Pete or someone else can correct me, but it's my understanding that women can not have leadership positions in LDS. Is that true? Romney handled the question of women's equal pay poorly, and not just with his reference to "binders of women". How does that translate to Romney's appointment of women to leadership roles in his Massachusetts Administration?

First of all, Romney was given several binders of profiles of qualified women on the day he took office, so he didn't send out for them. Second, if he *did* do that, isn't asking for such binders equivalent to affirmative action? Third, he didn't address the question of equal pay at all. Then there's the role of women in his Administration and the progress of women's roles throughout his tenure:
quote:
An Obama campaign spokesperson cited a 2007 study (PDF) by MassGAP and the Center for Women in Politics and Public Policy at the University of Massachusetts-Boston Wednesday, criticizing Romney’s administration for contributing to “the lack of overall growth in women’s representation in top positions” between September 2002 and July 2004.

According to the study, women replaced other women in 24 percent of Romney’s appointments during that time period, while men replaced men 37 percent of the time. And during the same period, women appointees replaced men 18 percent of the time, while men replaced women in 21 percent of similar cases.

In an email to The Raw Story, a MassGAP spokesperson said both Romney and Democratic opponent Shannon O’Brien agreed before the 2002 gubernatorial election to “make best efforts” to appoint a “proportionate” amount of women to state positions, as well as to meet with the group during the appointments process.

“Following the election, MassGAP formed committees for each cabinet post in the administration and began the process of recruiting, interviewing, and vetting women applicants,” the statement said. “Those committees selected top applicants for each position and presented this information to the administration for follow-up interviews and consideration for appointment.”


I am not sure how relevant the role of women in LDS leadership would be. You could, for example, say pretty much the same thing about Catholics but, Catholics in general (if not necessarily the Church "leadership") are not less supportive of women in the secular workplace than other people.
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AI Wessex
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"I am not sure how relevant the role of women in LDS leadership would be."

That's the question, is it significant for him? He has a history of not giving real power to women in executive positions. Bain had 7 women in Director roles or higher out of 87 positions during his tenure there. As Governor the article I cited above and other news stories suggest that women in the Mass. Executive were relegated to minor roles, were more likely to be replaced by men and their ranks dropped by 50% by the time he left office.

Chance?

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kmbboots
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Possibly not but I am not sure that motive is as important as his record and his record is sufficiently poor to stand on its own. Public speculation about whether his record is so bad because of his religious beliefs opens a can of worms we probably don't want to open.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
Kmbboots,

If you turn out to be right, Obama is unprepared to utilize a viable excuse. Do you really believe that is the case more than a month later?

I think that the President is less willing to play armchair quarterback when the political football concerns the deaths of his staff than Gov. Romney is.
And in case we were unconvinced of Governor Romney's willingness to make hay out of American tragedy, take a look at this:


http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/mother-jones-posts-full-video-of-romney-fundraiser

It's about 4 minutes into the first video. A partial transcript:

quote:
Questioner: When Carter was president, we had hostages. Ronald Reagan was able to make a statement even before he became, he was actually sworn in, and the hostages were released…

Mitt Romney: On the day of his inauguration.

Questioner: Right. So my question is really how can you sort of duplicate that scenario?

Romney: I could ask you, I could ask you how you do I duplicate that scenario?

Questioner: I think it had to do with the fact that the Iranians perceived Reagan… That’s why I’m suggesting that something that you say over the next few months gets the Iranians to understand that their pursuit of the bomb is something that you would prevent. And I think that’s something that could possibly resonate very well with the American public.

Romney: I appreciate the idea. One of the things that’s frustrating to me is that in a typical day like this, when I do three or four events like this, the number of foreign policy questions I get are between zero and one. And the American people are not concentrated at all on China, on Russia, Iran, Iraq. This President’s failure to put in place a status of forces agreement allowing ten to twenty thousand troops to stay in Iraq- unthinkable! And yet, in that election, in the Jimmy Carter election, the fact that we had hostages in Iran, I mean, that was all we talked about. And we had the two helicopters crash in the desert, I mean, that was the focus, and so him solving that made all the difference in the world. I’m afraid today that if you simply got Iran to agree to stand down on nuclear weapons, they’d go, “Now hold on. It’s really a-” I mean, if something of that nature presents itself I will work to find a way to take advantage of the opportunity.

(Bolding mine)

Seriously. Between that and the 47% remark, he had better have raked in the big bucks at the fundraiser.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"I am not sure how relevant the role of women in LDS leadership would be."

That's the question, is it significant for him? He has a history of not giving real power to women in executive positions. Bain had 7 women in Director roles or higher out of 87 positions during his tenure there. As Governor the article I cited above and other news stories suggest that women in the Mass. Executive were relegated to minor roles, were more likely to be replaced by men and their ranks dropped by 50% by the time he left office.

Chance?

Cough. Screaming bloody ignorance. Cough. You might as well be talking about black people and fried chicken.

While priesthood leadership is male in the church, Mormons have a better history of placing women in SECULAR leadership than most other groups. My ancestresses were voting before yours were. Brigham Young used church funds to send women back east to med school and law school. What were your ancestresses doing at that time? Do you even know their names? Remember anything about their lives? I know mine.

Please be careful how you extrapolate from the microscopic amount of information that you have about the LDS church to generalizations.

[ October 18, 2012, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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AI Wessex
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Pete, I really was asking for information and made mention of my ignorance, but thanks for reminding me, anyway.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
"I am not sure how relevant the role of women in LDS leadership would be."

That's the question, is it significant for him? He has a history of not giving real power to women in executive positions. Bain had 7 women in Director roles or higher out of 87 positions during his tenure there. As Governor the article I cited above and other news stories suggest that women in the Mass. Executive were relegated to minor roles, were more likely to be replaced by men and their ranks dropped by 50% by the time he left office.

Chance?

"Jesse Jackson has a history of making babies while not publically acknowledging his own offspring. He's also black. Coincidence?" Could you see how that could lead to offense?
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noel c.
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Kmbboots,

Personally, I am angered by the circumstances leading to, and equivocation following, the murder of our Libyan ambassador. "Making Hay" of the tragedy is one possible characterization of my response to Obama's handling of the entire affair.

Competent, honest, leadership upon the world stage is more than a campaign talking point... at least to me as an individual.

Perhaps that is the reason that I am less inclined than you are to impugn Romney's motives in holding Barry's feet to the fire. The issue will follow him into the next debate, and beyond, because it is a substantive indicator of charactered leadership.

[ October 19, 2012, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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AI Wessex
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As long as you agree that Romney's constant attempts to misrepresent what happened for political advantage are also inappropriate, perhaps a discussion is possible.
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noel c.
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Even if I agreed with your premise Al, which I do not, Obama's failure is unmitigated by the quid pro quo of another's leadership deficiencies. Compound this with the self-satisfied expression on the Secretary of State's face as she assumed "complete responsibility", and it is enough to make me hurl.

This is the same fat, highly painted, woman that fabricated stories of being under fire at a secure Middle Eastern airport to bolster her credentials as a front-line foreign policy veteran. The closest Hillary ever came to combat was when her motorcade killed a police escort.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
This is the same fat, highly painted, woman...
Yeah, noel, you're a real class act.
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noel c.
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... Should I add that she was sweating like a pig.

Sorry for offending your highly refined sense of decorum Tom, but these juveniles just got four individuals killed.

I will work on a better balancing of my priorities.

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TomDavidson
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Yeah, that's right. The president and the secretary of state are personally responsible for the deaths of some embassy staffers. And, of course, George Bush is responsible for the death of those two FEMA personnel in Louisiana.

Look, this kind of shameful blame-tossing is just pathetic and sad. I didn't do it with 9/11 or Katrina or Kabul or Kandahar, and I think it's a shame people are trying to do it now. It's one thing to argue that people are dying as a consequence of policy or systematic deficiency, and then acting to fix that deficiency -- like, say, grafting more armor onto the underside of troop transports, or deciding that we're actually going to listen to prioritize critical requests from environmental safety experts in the future -- but it's quite another to say, "Yeah, you should have somehow known that this specific possible threat was the most serious threat, and your failure to throw resources at it represents gross negligence."

I prefer to cut our leaders some slack when it comes to the fortune-telling parts of their jobs. Part of that is that it's way too easy to let our natural predisposition to prioritize bad news throw our perspective out of whack; if we're going to blame them for every wrong call or bit of bad luck, we should technically give them credit for every luck break, as well -- but we don't, obviously, and it's not human nature for us to do so. So I'd rather resist the tendency to pretend that everything that has ever happened could have been perfectly predicted by competent people, as tempting as that is.

Also: do you believe that calling someone fat -- or "painted," or "sweaty" -- is justified if you believe your anger at them is justified? And, of course, if the person in question is female?

[ October 19, 2012, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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noel c.
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"... this kind of shameful blame tossing..."...

You must be talking about the administration's finger-pointing at the intelligence community.

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AI Wessex
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"Even if I agreed with your premise Al, which I do not..."

You don't agree that Romney jumped in before we even knew that the Ambassador had been killed to blame Obama for apologizing for something he never apologized for was inappropriate? How can we even have a civil conversation when you are so completely blinded by your own prejudices?

"This is the same fat, highly painted, woman..."

That is about the most revealing and disgustingly misogynistic characterization of a female Secretary of State I can possibly imagine. You are *worse* than I had already thought. I have absolutely no respect for you or your opinions from this point on.

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noel c.
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I am not talking about "a" female Secretary of State, I am talking about *this* female Secretary of State... she is not our first, and certainly not our best qualified.

I am an equal opportunity critic of incompetence.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You must be talking about the administration's finger-pointing at the intelligence community.
The intelligence community is part of the administration, you realize.

quote:
I am an equal opportunity critic of incompetence.
And, apparently, makeup.

[ October 19, 2012, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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kmbboots
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Last night, David Letterman reran the show from September 18 where he interviewed President Obama. It was clear from what the President said then that he considered the attack in Benghazi to be an attack by terrorists.

"You had a video that was released by somebody who lives here, sort of a shadowy character who -- who is an extremely offensive video directed at -- at Mohammed and Islam, making fun of the Prophet Mohammed. This caused great offense in much of the much of the Muslim world. But what also happened was extremists and terrorists used this as an excuse to attack a variety of our embassies."

Which circumstances leading up to the attack are you talking about? If we should have known about the attack, isn't that an intelligence failure?

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noel c.
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"The intelligence community is part of the administration..."...

Are you serious Tom? That is like saying that the military is "part" of the administration. You were making an attempt at humor, right?

"And, apparently, make up."...

If a hillbilly in the White House colored his hair gray to present himself as an elder statesman, I would have the identical criticism... and according to Jim McDougal, he sweat like an over fed pig all over an expensive office chair... now that I think about it, we are talking about the same team.

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AI Wessex
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"I am an equal opportunity critic of incompetence."

Trust me, Noel, I'm probably twice your age and have dealt with a *lot* of people and their prejudices and opinions in my lifetime. You are *far* from the high minded analytical thinker that you imagine yourself to be. Consider that you transfer your disapproval of Clinton's job performance into a direct attack on her physical appearance and that you attempt to justify it as a criticism of her incompetence.

Would a reasonable person ever do such a thing? Ever? Really?

[ October 19, 2012, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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noel c.
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You might want to take an early nap Al.
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TCB
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quote:
If a hillbilly in the White House colored his hair gray to present himself as an elder statesman, I would have the identical criticism... and according to Jim McDougal, he sweat like an over fed pig all over an expensive office chair... now that I think about it, we are talking about the same team.
He's got you there, guys. It's pretty well known that Democrats are sweatier than Republicans.
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noel c.
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... Which particular Democrats would you be thinking of TCB?
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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
I am an equal opportunity critic of incompetence.

No more so than I am, noel.

I hope this helps: the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.

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noel c.
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You have veered into the truth Donald, possibly without even knowing it.

Behind all the pretentious inexperience, the first step to recovery is what this election is about.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
That is like saying that the military is "part" of the administration.
I feel perfectly comfortable that saying that, yes, the military is indeed a function of the Department of Defense, itself a part of the executive branch, and furthermore commanded by the Commander-in-Chief. Certainly military failures reflect upon the president and his chosen subordinates. As do intelligence failures. As do diplomatic failures. In fact, arguably the military is more directly an arm of any president's administration than almost any other major federal department.
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noel c.
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Tom,

You were serious.

I am hard pressed to construct a more effective rebuttal than the one that you have offered of your own free will.

[ October 19, 2012, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"The intelligence community is part of the administration..."...

Are you serious Tom? That is like saying that the military is "part" of the administration. You were making an attempt at humor, right?

"And, apparently, make up."...

If a hillbilly in the White House colored his hair gray to present himself as an elder statesman, I would have the identical criticism... and according to Jim McDougal, he sweat like an over fed pig all over an expensive office chair... now that I think about it, we are talking about the same team.

This was disgusting. Do you want to be taken seriously here or are you just playing a game to see how angry you can make the liberals?
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DonaldD
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Disgusting is a bit strong, VL. But if noel doesn't already understand how badly his recent posts reflect on his reputation (for whatever an internet/BBS reputation is worth) I don't think your post will help him realize it.
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AI Wessex
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See the tone of the responses, Noel? Nobody is disagreeing with the content you think you were expressing. Everyone is pointing out that you yourself have some personal issues that allow you to make such uncontrolled statements. You respond to us by doubling-down and accusing everyone else of having blinders on that prevent them from seeing themselves clearly.

Get it, Noel? You should consider Donald's [first] response as the most constructive one and read it slowly and repeatedly until it begins to make sense to you.

[ October 19, 2012, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
VL,

I think that is a fair evaluation.

Romney has gone to greath lengths to present himself as a person of great faith while downplaying his religion. He has been aided and abetted in this since his nomination by pastors on the religous right who have essentially told their flocks that Obama is so bad we shouldn't think about Romney's religion, simply remember that Obama is a socialist and must be removed no matter the cost.

What most evangellicals think the LDS teaches is that Jesus came to the Americas and preached to native tribes, that they used to be polygamists and that they baptize the dead. Weird but acceptable.

Were they to do a little research online they would be informed that Mormons believe that God lives on the planet Kolob, is six feet tall, that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and that a vast cicilization for which there is no archeological record existed in North America. Now you can tell me I have some or all of that wrong, but that's irrelevent. It's what they would learn.

That's not something Mitt Romney needs to happen a few weeks before the election.

[ October 19, 2012, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Disgusting is a bit strong, VL. But if noel doesn't already understand how badly his recent posts reflect on his reputation (for whatever an internet/BBS reputation is worth) I don't think your post will help him realize it.

It was gross, and where I'm from "hillbilly" is considered the equivelent to the N word.
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noel c.
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"This was disgusting."...

This reminds me of the "salacious" epithet that attached to anyone that had a problem with a Commander in Chief getting serviced by teenage interns during conference calls with field commanders.

I am unapologetically critical of public employees who bring a bundle of unrestrained personal appetites to work with them. Granted, stealing White House furnishings has no direct connection to ignoring security requests, but the general pattern of avarice/gluttony that the Clintons exemplify is in perfect conformity with the Devil may care attitude that *this* Secretary of State displayed in accepting "full responsibility"... and it is disgusting.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"This was disgusting."...

This reminds me of the "salacious" epithet that attached to anyone that had a problem with a Commander in Chief getting serviced by teenage interns during conference calls with field commanders.

I am unapologetically critical of public employees who bring a bundle of unrestrained personal appetites to work with them. Granted, stealing White House furnishings has no direct connection to ignoring security requests, but the general pattern of avarice/gluttony that the Clintons exemplify is in perfect conformity with the Devil may care attitude that *this* Secretary of State displayed in accepting "full responsibility"... and it is disgusting.

Attacking people's personal appearance is not criticizing their work. If you want to be taken seriously here act like a grown up.

You can act like an adult and be respected here. You can act like a child and be regarded as an object of condescension even by other conservatives, like G3 is.

The crimes of the Clintons (and I'm no fan of the Clintons, now or then) aren't a blank check for you to go after them like an 11 year old.

"Hillary Clinton is an incompetant" is criticism "Hillary Clinton is a sweaty old witch, who sucks at her job and has cooties!" is name calling even if you insert a critical point in along the way. This is not the 6th grade.

[ October 19, 2012, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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noel c.
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VL,

Where I am from, "hillbilly" identifies the backwoods inhabitants of Oklahoma/Arkansas/Tennessee mountains, and they do not self-identify as "sophisticated", which is not inherently damming... unless you think it should be. Do you think WJC is comfortable with his roots?

Regarding Romney's religion; You are right. As a Christian, he would for example probably not relish the prospect of explaining the consumption of God's flesh, and blood, even symbolically within the context of a presidential bid. I don’t think people expect him to.

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noel c.
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P.S.

Is gluttony/avarice detectable in more than behavior?

To my knowledge, Cooties would not be symptomatic.

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
This is the same fat, highly painted, woman...
Yeah, noel, you're a real class act.
He just went on my list of people I would never take my eyes off, if they were in the same room as my wife or one of my daughters. Fortunately, that's unlikely to ever happen.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
VL,

Where I am from, "hillbilly" identifies the backwoods inhabitants of Oklahoma/Arkansas/Tennessee mountains, and they do not self-identify as "sophisticated", which is not inherently damming... unless you think it should be. Do you think WJC is comfortable with his roots?

Regarding Romney's religion; You are right. As a Christian, he would for example probably not relish the prospect of explaining the consumption of God's flesh, and blood, even symbolically within the context of a presidential bid. I don’t think people expect him to.

When country music was first recorded it was sold as "Hillbilly Music". When they tried marketing it in Appalachia our shopkeepers told them that there was no way they could sell albums with the word "hillbilly" on them. Thus it was repackaged as "Country Music". It's a slur.


You're not from Appalachia or the Ozarks, you've got no businness calling Clinton a "hillbilly", it's the same as calling Obama a darkie or calling Joe Lieberman a yid, and that's me being charitable.

If you are going to persist I am going to take it up with the mod. Do you understand? I'm not going to toy with you.

Oh and the difference between explaining communion and Mormon doctrine is that Romney has to have the vote of Christians who would find LDS doctrine extremely blashpemous. He doesn't have to have the votes of ancient Romans who thought Christians were cannibals.

[ October 19, 2012, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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noel c.
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VL,

We do not need to look to "ancient" Romans for the comparison to hold with complete fidelity. "Modern" atheists, and religious non-Christians for that matter, are in precisely the same boat. I have seen those misgivings expressed on this site, and your comments about Mormonisn are a mere sub-group refinement on the theme. If you think that after two presidential runs the evangelicals are unaware of doctrinal distinctions, then you are totally out of touch with a significant portion of the electorate. As Jerry Falwell stated in expressing support for Romney back in 2007; "We are voting for a Commander in Chief, not a Sunday School teacher." .

... And speaking of 11 year old behavior, since when have you folks developed such an intolerance for personal attacks (so-called). Virtually everyone of you has directed the label "liar" not to a political figure, but members of this board.

... Just an observation.

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