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Author Topic: Duh Debates
AI Wessex
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quote:
This was a good line from Romney:

quote:Jim, I had the great experience -- it didn't seem like it at the time -- of being elected in a state where my legislature was 87 percent Democrat. And that meant I figured out from day one I had to get along and I had to work across the aisle to get anything done.

Why was that a good line? If the MA legislature was as closely divided as Congress will be he wouldn't have the same dynamic and wouldn't have needed to find so much "common ground". Both sides lie, but a key difference for me is that Romney stood up and made promises there is no way in the world he'll be able to keep, even if he isn't faced with a rolling crisis that Obama walked into on Day 1. I wonder how many filibusters the Democrats would throw at him?
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EDanaII
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Psst, don't look now, but Health Care is a major part of the economy. Mitt would get rid of Obamacare and replace it with... something that has all the things he admits are good about it. He'd just replace the "bad" parts, which are secret.

And it doesn't take effect until years later! Even if I accepted that Obama care was good for the Economy - I don't - it didn't take effect right away. The house was burning down and Obama ran off to look for truffles...

You wanna know why he lost last night? Why he looked like he'd rather have been somewhere else? You wanna know why he stumbled over his words and repeated half-baked facts? Because he was forced to defend the indefensible. And he's the one the placed himself in that very nonstrategic spot when he failed to address the economy at the very beginning of his term.

Ed.

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G3
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Holy crap. I had thought this would be what the Ryan/Biden debate would look like. Talk about being shown as a total SCOAMF, Barry better hope ObamaCare covers the thorough ass kicking he just received. Such a debate hammering hasn't occurred since Reagan chewed up Carter and Mondale. I really didn't expect such a beat down.

Chris Matthews, ol' leg tingles himself:
quote:
“Where was Obama tonight? He should watch — well not just Hardball, Rachel, he should watch you, the Reverend Al, Lawrence. There’s a hot debate going on in this country, here on this network is where we’re having the debate. We have our knives out, we go after the people and the facts. What was he doing tonight? He went in there disarmed.”

“Obama should watch MSNBC. He will learn something every night. This stuff we’re watching, this is like first grade to most of us. We know all of this stuff.”

Obama delivered a first grade like performance. Heh.
From the campaign itself:
quote:
After tonight’s debate, Obama deputy campaign manager Stephanie Cutter admitted that Mitt Romney did well in tonight’s debate.

“Yes, he absolutely wins the preparation and he wins the style points,” she said.

When even your own campaign staff is calling it a defeat, you know you lost - badly. Pundits are starting to refer to this debate as The Mile High Massacre. Heh.

The CNN flash poll - CNN:
quote:
Finally -- among independents (not all RV's), Romney decimated Obama, 75-17.
Holy crap. When an organization as deeply in the tank for Obama comes up with those numbers, you know it was a deep tissue ass whupping. 75-17. Heh.

James Carville:
quote:
“I had one overwhelming impression,” he said. “I did everything I could not to reach it, but it looked like Romney wanted to be there and President Obama didn’t want to be there.”
Andrew Sullivan, I'm going to break my personal moratorium on linking so you can all drink his sweet, sweet tears.Heh. Because I'm such a generous and caring person, here's a sampling for the vast majority of you who refuse to follow links:
quote:
Look: you know how much I love the guy, and you know how much of a high information viewer I am, and I can see the logic of some of Obama's meandering, weak, professorial arguments. But this was a disaster for the president...

<snip>

And is it me, or does he even sound like Reagan?

<snip>

That he [Romney] is more persuasive on this than the president is a staggering personal failure on Obama's part. And now Obama is saying he is the candidate of "saying no". Just staggering incompetence on his part.

<snip>

I find myself bored silly by Obama. If I am bored silly by this wonkish lecture, and his refusal to rebut specific points, i.e. lies, Obama's in trouble.

<snip>

Romney is kicking the president's ass.

<snip>

A nervous but competent beginning by Obama, but I'm struck by the visuals. Romney just looks like a classic president and Obama a very different one. The visuals are with Romney. And his answer was a total re-boot on compassion. This first round goes solidly to Romney.

BWAHAHAHA. Staggering incompetence.

One of my favorite quotes, and I can't recall where it was so no idea who said it but it was something along the lines of "This is what you get when you use John Kerry to prepare". Love the tying of Barry to Kerry, all we need is a picture of Barry in a bunny suit now.

What you have here is a guy that is a total SCOAMF. Barry *needs* his teleprompter. He doesn't know what to say or how to say it unless he's told. Nearly 4 years of a sycophantic media and addresses with controlled crowds and pre-planned questions shows up in his performance. Barry tossed up strawman after strawman and seemed genuinely befuddled when they were so casually shot down and something of substance was delivered back. Watching the side by side split screen, I now know the look that must perpetually be on Al Wessex's face when he reads my posts. Heh.

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TCB
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I watched the debate and skipped the commentary after. I thought it was pretty boring (no one said anything we didn't know, there were no interesting "gotcha" moments), and more or less a tie. But the media take is remarkably monolithic, and it seems the polling agrees, so it seems my perception was highly atypical. [Smile]

It's true that Obama was a bit listless, but have all the pundits who were shocked by it watched a press conference in the last three years? Except at campaign rallies, he's always pretty calm and low-energy.

I have three basic problems with Romney's arguments:

1) Romney proposed a $5T tax cut a year ago in order to win the Republican nomination. It was highly implausible that he could cut deductions and loophoples such that it would be revenue-neutral. Now that he's won the nomination he says that anyone who holds him to the $5T number is misrepresenting him, and that we should only pay attention to the "revenue neutral" aspect. It reveals the tax cut proposal was mere pandering.

It's illustrative of the principles of the kind of man who sometimes runs to Ted Kennedy's left, sometimes to Rick Perry's right, and other times as a moderate alternative to Obama. If we shouldn't hold him to the tax cut, which current promises should we ignore?

Of course, I'm glad he'll abandon that ridiculous plan if he's president, and Republicans seem fine with him abandoning it, as well, so there's a silver lining.

2) Romney's supposedly going to keep tax revenues neutral, spend trillions more on defense, $700B more on Medicare, and eliminate the deficit by...cutting funding for renewable energy and PBS. Is this one of the "hard truths" he and Paul Ryan are always bragging about telling us?

3) Romney's claim that his plan will protect people with pre-existing conditions is more or less a lie. He only protects pre-existing conditions for people who are continuously insured, not for people with lapsed coverage. It's uninsured people who have to worry about pre-existing conditions not being covered, not the continuously insured.

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AI Wessex
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"You wanna know why he lost last night? Why he looked like he'd rather have been somewhere else?"

Agreed. Not sure why he planned it that way, unless like at the Correspondents' Dinner last year he was working on the plan to go after the Libyan embassy attackers and was distracted.

"You wanna know why he stumbled over his words and repeated half-baked facts? Because he was forced to defend the indefensible."

Hmmm, then why was Romney so happy given that he's making happy promises that there's no chance he will keep?

"And he's the one the placed himself in that very nonstrategic spot when he failed to address the economy at the very beginning of his term."

[Edit] If he had had more cooperation things might have gone better. But keep in mind that we kept losing jobs for the 4-5 months while he was trying to get his recovery plan through Congress and even though it's taken a long time the economy has recovered all of the jobs that it lost.

[ October 04, 2012, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Pete at Home
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Good Sullivan link, G3. Gracias.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by TCB:
[QB] I watched the debate and skipped the commentary after. I thought it was pretty boring (no one said anything we didn't know, there were no interesting "gotcha" moments), and more or less a tie. But the media take is remarkably monolithic, and it seems the polling agrees, so it seems my perception was highly atypical. [Smile]

That was about my take on it as well. Imagine my surprise when I woke up this morning to everyone talking about how great Romney was.
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D.W.
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I think I was watching a different debate…
The president should have pressed Romney to share his plan that supported these denials. He also should have explained more what HE would do rather than vilify what he believed Romney would do. He did seem a little unprepared for the “Nuh uhh” rebuttals. [Roll Eyes]

Other than that I think the surprise that Obama didn’t knock the debate out of the park is being interpreted somehow that Romney did. I will concede that by this debate alone it appears Romney would be a better Performer in Chief which I had not expected to be the case.

I didn’t hear much of substance that was all that persuasive other than Romney giving a few concrete denials to the characterization of his plans. If he can back these up this will be a huge asset to his campaign. If Obama can punch holes in those claims it will be a serious problem for Romney.

(Sorry about the edit, got a bad recovery from my cut and paste after an explorer crash.) [Razz]

[ October 04, 2012, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Adam Masterman
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I watched about 10 minutes of the end, and thought Obama did poorly, so I can sort-of understand the "Romney won" meme. But the thing that was most frustrating about the president's performance is that he didn't call Romney on a bunch of really significant lies. Obama should have used language like "I don't for a second believe that he is going to find these loopholes. If Governor Romney plans to go in with a clearly defined cut, but only a vague and unspecified desire for closing loopholes, then what he'll get is a 5 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich, and a 5 trillion dollar reduction in revenue, one that either adds to the deficit, or cuts essential services. And as a former Governor, he knows this."

Hopefully these points will get made going forward, but it would have been nice to have a John Kerry performance here, calling a spade a spade with the whole country watching ("Sadaam Hussein did not attack us, Mr. President; Osama bin Laden attacked us"). There were plenty of opportunities, just in the ten minutes I watched.

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AI Wessex
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" Such a debate hammering hasn't occurred since Reagan chewed up Carter and Mondale. I really didn't expect such a beat down."

If Ornery had a "stopped clock" award I would nominate G3 for it. Romney was on his game, but Obama so underperformed against expectations that I have to wonder what was distracting him.

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yossarian22c
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I think a lot of that perception is because Obama failed to pound Romney on all his misrepresentations.

What I heard from Romney was this:
On taxes:
* I'll lower tax rates.
* Federal tax revenue will be be the same.
* Taxes on the rich won't increase.
* Taxes on the middle class won't increase.
* Taxes on the poor won't increase
* Taxes on small businesses will go down.

Not all of those statements can be true.

On government spending:
* More spending on defense, education, health care and seniors.
* I'll balance the budget by cutting spending alone.

I'm pretty sure both those statements can't be true as well.

Romney was more forceful in his delivery and more willing to lie. I think that drove the perception that he won among average viewers. I think Obama letting him get away with it meant the pundits decided Romney won because Obama missed so many opportunities to call him out on it.

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D.W.
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quote:
I think Obama letting him get away with it meant the pundits decided Romney won because Obama missed so many opportunities to call him out on it.
To be fair to the pundits if this was a high school debate existing in a bubble I would score it a Romney win because of this alone yossarian22c.
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Adam Masterman
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FactCheck doesn't say so explicitly (actually they do, but mildly), but they document way more egregious and substantive lying from Romney:

FactCheck.org

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
But the thing that was most frustrating about the president's performance is that he didn't call Romney on a bunch of really significant lies.

I see you got the talking points memo. Is there a set number of times to repeat this or you just go with it anytime the debate is brought up? I understood that you should put it in all caps or something to indicate the shrill hysteria that is being evoked but maybe you're more mellow than that. I think you are also supposed to mention how the altitude affected Barry and caused him to lose, at least that's Al Gore's excuse (for reals, google it up, friggin hysterical).

I think the left is so comfortable screaming "LIES" that it's the go-to strategy they rely on for just about anything that does not fit the ideological framework - I don't think they understand what a lie is any more other than a appropriate, state approved chant. So that's why it's the first chain pulled by the rank and file when they receive their marching orders.

Other lame excuses you're supposed to say as the 'lies' chant fails:
  • The free-flowing format was bad and let Romney dominate
  • The moderator, Jim Lehrer, let Romney win (that's the current "official" excuse from the Obama campaign).
  • Obama didn’t show up tonight, aka, he wasn't even really trying - so there.
  • Challengers have more time to prepare than do busy presidents.
  • Victim of high expectations.

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D.W.
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They both walked over poor Jim. Obama reclaiming his 5 seconds and then exceeding it by a fairly lengthy amount proves that.

I don't know if "Victim of high expectations" is a lame excuse or not but it's certainly true.

Obama didn’t live up to his rep as an excellent public speaker and Romney surprised a lot of people by showing he was no slouch.

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AI Wessex
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"I see you got the talking points memo. Is there a set number of times to repeat this or you just go with it anytime the debate is brought up?"

oooooh, sorry. That disqualifies you from the stopped clock award. The principle of serendipity is that if you're there when the bus comes you get on the bus, but if you're not you don't. You missed the factcheck local and it looks like you will have to wait a long time before you get another chance.

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Adam Masterman
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I seem to have touched a nerve...
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Wayward Son
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What G3 fails to realize is that the memo simply reads, "Tell them the truth." [Big Grin]

[ October 04, 2012, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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AI Wessex
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"Obama didn’t live up to his rep as an excellent public speaker and Romney surprised a lot of people by showing he was no slouch."

I heard a report on the radio today about a focus group of independents in Denver that was monitoring the debate in real time and recording their positive/negative impressions every second. They responded positively whenever Obama was speaking and negatively every time that Romney attacked him. They "scored" it much more favorably towards Obama. They ultimately were asked their opinion about who won and they all said that Romney did.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:

I heard a report on the radio today about a focus group of independents in Denver that was monitoring the debate in real time and recording their positive/negative impressions every second. They responded positively whenever Obama was speaking and negatively every time that Romney attacked him. They "scored" it much more favorably towards Obama. They ultimately were asked their opinion about who won and they all said that Romney did.

This agrees with my suspicion that we witnessed Romney stealing Obama's lunch money and thus was called the "winner", but not necessarily by being a stellar candidate that persuaded people with his argument. He made sure he was the one throwing punches - and you can't win a fight by defending. Obama isn't very good at debate-as-combat because he meanders too much.
With a little coaching, maybe next time he will come with some prepared "punches" to not let Romney take the position of aggressor again. He can't just sit there and defend. It would also be nice to see some fire outta him!

[ October 04, 2012, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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Pete at Home
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How'd you like the oh, btw, Jim, if I win, you're fired?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Obama didn’t live up to his rep as an excellent public speaker and Romney surprised a lot of people by showing he was no slouch."

I heard a report on the radio today about a focus group of independents in Denver that was monitoring the debate in real time and recording their positive/negative impressions every second. They responded positively whenever Obama was speaking and negatively every time that Romney attacked him. They "scored" it much more favorably towards Obama. They ultimately were asked their opinion about who won and they all said that Romney did.

Well, if you measured up who seemed to be wining second by second, then the US kicked Vietnam's butt, and the Brit's prevailed in the US revolution.
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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Obama didn’t live up to his rep as an excellent public speaker and Romney surprised a lot of people by showing he was no slouch."

I heard a report on the radio today about a focus group of independents in Denver that was monitoring the debate in real time and recording their positive/negative impressions every second. They responded positively whenever Obama was speaking and negatively every time that Romney attacked him. They "scored" it much more favorably towards Obama. They ultimately were asked their opinion about who won and they all said that Romney did.

It sounds to me like the "independants" were actually closet democrats.

I too respond negatively every time the Yankees hit a home run off a Red Sox pitcher. But I still know who has the most runs at the end of the game.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
" Such a debate hammering hasn't occurred since Reagan chewed up Carter and Mondale. I really didn't expect such a beat down."

If Ornery had a "stopped clock" award I would nominate G3 for it. Romney was on his game, but Obama so underperformed against expectations that I have to wonder what was distracting him.

I can guess that.

What surprised me was that Romney seemed to have changed his mind about wanting to lose.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:

What surprised me was that Romney seemed to have changed his mind about wanting to lose.

When you shake the etch-a-sketch as hard as he did last night, everything gets wiped out.
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Pete at Home
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Dream on, Pyr. Barry babbles on about "the real Romney," but Romney's record as an elected official is completely consistent with the sort of man we saw last night.

It's what I said all along: Romney spent a year bending over for the right-wing republican initiation, said their mumbo jumbo, and now he's back with us.

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Viking_Longship
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Obama mostly just sounded exhasperated and annoyed to me. The next debate is going to be about foriegn policy and Romney seems eager to go there. If Romney trots out a bunch of Neo-con utopian BS about being Democracy to the Middle East and implying that Obama gutted defense Obama's going to have to have a better defense than sounding exhasperated.

[ October 04, 2012, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Dream on, Pyr. Barry babbles on about "the real Romney," but Romney's record as an elected official is completely consistent with the sort of man we saw last night.

It's what I said all along: Romney spent a year bending over for the right-wing republican initiation, said their mumbo jumbo, and now he's back with us.

I like the Romney I saw last night, but I don't trust that that was the real man.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
It's what I said all along: Romney spent a year bending over for the right-wing republican initiation, said their mumbo jumbo, and now he's back with us.
He may be back with you, Pete, but who are his advisors and cabinet going to be? [Wink]
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EDanaII
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@ AI Wessex:

quote:
Agreed. Not sure why he planned it that way, unless like at the Correspondents' Dinner last year he was working on the plan to go after the Libyan embassy attackers and was distracted.
Or maybe... just maybe... he was distracted by the fact that he can't marshal a good argument about why he couldn't have dealt with the Economy at the beginning of his term?

quote:
Hmmm, then why was Romney so happy given that he's making happy promises that there's no chance he will keep?
And when Romney fails to keep his promises, only then you will have a good point.


quote:
If he had had more cooperation things might have gone better. But keep in mind that we kept losing jobs for the 4-5 months while he was trying to get his recovery plan through Congress and even though it's taken a long time the economy has recovered all of the jobs that it lost.
He had a Democratic congress for the first two years of his term. He chose to deal with Democratic priorities instead of National ones. This is why he can't defend himself. "Gosh... I got people standing around doing nothing... I'll go buy them ice cream! That'll get 'em jobs!"

Ed.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I like the Romney I saw last night, but I don't trust that that was the real man.

Yesssssssss.

This is the real Romney. Bwua haha!

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AI Wessex
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"Or maybe... just maybe... he was distracted by the fact that he can't marshal a good argument about why he couldn't have dealt with the Economy at the beginning of his term?"

Anything is possible, but some things are very unlikely. That is one.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Or maybe... just maybe... he was distracted by the fact that he can't marshal a good argument about why he couldn't have dealt with the Economy at the beginning of his term?
You keep repeating that nonsense despite the fact that the ARRA was one of the first major acts out of the gate. Are you suggesting that he would have had any luck passing a second stimulus bill before the first was even fully under way?
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AI Wessex
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"And when Romney fails to keep his promises, only then you will have a good point."

Then please explain how he will implement a 20% tax cut across the board (and what taxes is he referring to) while remaining revenue neutral? He can't. Or don't you think that is necessary during an election campaign?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Dream on, Pyr. Barry babbles on about "the real Romney," but Romney's record as an elected official is completely consistent with the sort of man we saw last night.

It's what I said all along: Romney spent a year bending over for the right-wing republican initiation, said their mumbo jumbo, and now he's back with us.

Doesn't matter which one was the act, really; the magnitude of the change that he seems to be hoping that no one notices remains about the same.

And of course, he's still sticking to the worst of the mumbo jumbo- pushing for ideological economic nonsense and military escalation, while dodging the fact that his numbers don't add up.

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MattP
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He's being pretty careful in his language to obfuscate what he's really saying. He will cut rates but also cut deductions. So the net result is no net tax reduction or increase. (That's the definition of revenue neutral, neh?)

Some people may pay more, some may pay less. Since he won't tell us which deductions he thinks he would get rid of (all of them?) we can't know who will be the winners and losers there or verify whether the math even works.

[ October 04, 2012, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
I like the Romney I saw last night, but I don't trust that that was the real man.

You like the Romney who proposed major military escalation as his only remotely credible growth measure?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Some people may pay more, some may pay less. Since he won't tell us which deductions he thinks he would get rid of (all of them?) we can't know who will be the winners and losers there or verify whether the math even works.

We know how much he plans to reduce taxes by- that means that we can add up the currently available deductions and see that there's no way he can even come close without cutting heavily into those going to the middle class in greater proportion than the tax reductions he's offering.
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AI Wessex
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One of Romney's claims was that Massachusetts had the top rated school system in the country when he was Governor. It sounded to me like he wanted to take credit for that, but they have traditionally had one of the highest teacher salary scales in the nation and are perennially ranked as having the best or near best school systems. It might be a more honest claim to say that he didn't weaken it.
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G3
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quote:
Following last night’s nationally televised presidential debate, President Barack Obama’s 11-year-old daughter Sasha reportedly asked her father why he was “acting like such a goddamned pussy up there.” “Daddy, how come you were being such a little bitch?” asked the sixth-grader, who told the president she was “genuinely worried” that maybe somebody had “cut Daddy’s balls off” right before he took the stage.
The Onion. [LOL]
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