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Author Topic: Hillary plays brilliantly
G3
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This is a brilliant move, Hillary shows why the Clinton's remain a force in American politics. The calculation here is spot on and the risk so well managed it virtually doesn't exist. When you play the game of politics, they don't come much better than Hillary.

What am I talking about? How she took credit for Obama's Benghazi failure of course.
quote:
Hillary looks like A-the loyal soldier and B-the only one who is going to stand up and say, "something awful happened on my watch and I'm going to look in the mirror to see who is in charge and not like some other people I could name, look around for scapegoats".
She tried to throw it off at first but saw the way things were playing out, adjusted, and now looks like the only adult in the room at the oval office.

There was no risk of her actually being held responsible. Who would? MSNBC? CNN? NYT? Any other MSM outlet? Hardly. No, she's not going to be held responsible for this despite taking it on - not even the GOP is taking that up. By 2016, nobody will think of this either, ancient history. She's going to come out clean on this unless something truly, amazingly, unbelievable happens. She looks like the kind of person willing to stand up and take responsibility, address the issues and, as a bonus, be loyal to the team. She looks presidential.

That last is important. Romney is running a campaign based on his leadership and Obama's unwillingness and abject inability to lead. Hillary has just stepped into the power vacuum and teed it up for Mitt to hit it out of the park on the "empty chair" presidency tonight. The timing is too good to be purely coincidence - the eve of the debate. Yeah. Frigging brilliant.

There's a lot of things that can be said about Hillary but [edit] she plays the game better than anyone. 2016 is gonna be interesting.

[ October 16, 2012, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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AI Wessex
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"That last is important. Romney is running a campaign based on his leadership and Obama's unwillingness and abject inability to lead. Hillary has just stepped into the power vacuum and teed it up for Mitt to hit it out of the park on the "empty chair" presidency tonight."

For a rare change, I was agreeing with everything you wrote up til this comment. What *you* fail to see is that the man behind the curtain isn't Hillary. Want to guess who it is? I bet everyone else here can guess immediately, but you'll never make that leap. Too bad.

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G3
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Developing the meme ...
quote:
But in 2008, then Senator Clinton criticized then Senator Obama during the Democratic primary seizing on comments Obama had made about being a President who would inspire and provide a vision for the country and not make sure “everything’s running on time.” …

Hillary Clinton also said at rally in Missouri in January, “I believe we need a president who believed what Harry Truman believed. That buck stopped in the Oval Office.”

Yeah, now when that 3 AM call comes, it stops at the Sec of State's office it seems ... BTW, video of that moment is now making the rounds. Delicious! [LOL]


quote:
... wondered whether Barack Obama would magnanimously assure people in tonight’s debate that the buck stops at his desk. Frankly, it’s too late for that now. Hillary may or may not have intended to take some heat off of the White House after Joe Biden’s Sergeant Schultz “We knew nothing” declaration at Thursday’s debate, but all she ended up doing is making Obama look tremendously weak by contrast. Obama had almost five weeks to get in front of a camera and state the obvious — that he’s ultimately responsible for anything that happens within his administration. In fact, he’s has five weeks to get in front of a camera and address the American people about what turned out to be the first successful terrorist attack on an American diplomatic mission in 14 years — and he still hasn’t done so. Instead, he’s doing sports talk shows while his White House staff try to shift blame onto State and the intel community.

It’s a jaw-dropping display of a leadership vacuum, which Hillary ended up having to fill herself. This is exactly what Hillary warned voters about in 2008. The contrast between her moment of leadership in this crisis and Obama’s lack of leadership since the very beginning of it will not help Obama make the case for another four years of buck-passing at the top, not even when Obama showed leadership on the Nicki Minaj-Mariah Carey feud.

And tonight is the "foreign policy" debate. Will Romney use some variation of the words "leadership vacuum"? I hope so, I will laugh and laugh if he takes Hillary's gift and runs with it. So will Bill and Hillary I bet.

The empty suit candidate became the empty chair president.

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AI Wessex
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There's an aphorism that in a democracy you don't elect the leaders you need, you elect the ones you deserve. If there are a lot of voters out there like G# and Romney wins, that won't say much good about us as a nation.

My suspicion is that G# will be unhappy with the results and he will scuttle away until he comes up with new nastiness to share.

I forget, is there a reason we think he adds value to this forum or is he still here because we are just such good liberals and don't think people who lack normal social skills should be discriminated against?

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D.W.
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I think this time G3 may be onto something. Exploiting this perceived weakness will most likely be attempted. And I think he'll be thrilled with it regardless of the response.

Also someone who is this fascinated with an American Idol judge feud is quite likely indicative to our populace Al. Hate to break it to you.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
There's an aphorism that in a democracy you don't elect the leaders you need, you elect the ones you deserve. If there are a lot of voters out there like G# and Romney wins, that won't say much good about us as a nation.

True, but the problem is that if Obama wins, that won't say much good about us as a nation either [Smile]
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yossarian22c
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Hillary isn't running against Obama in 2016. Her prospects are probably improved if Obama wins because running against an incumbent is usually harder. That doesn't mean Romney won't end up attacking Obama over this but the number of security guards at individual consulates across the world is not a presidential level decision.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
I think this time G3 may be onto something. Exploiting this perceived weakness will most likely be attempted. And I think he'll be thrilled with it regardless of the response.

I'll be thrilled with it only if Romney uses it effectively.

quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Also someone who is this fascinated with an American Idol judge feud is quite likely indicative to our populace Al. Hate to break it to you.

Not sure what you mean. I'm not fascinated with it (in fact, I didn't even know this was on American Idol - I thought that was Paula Abdul ... I don't watch that show). What does fascinate me about the "feud" is, only weeks before the election, that is the interview that Barry gives. Of all that's facing the nation, Barry is grilled on what side he'll take in a inconsequential and ridiculous pop culture tiff. You don't question that at all?
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by yossarian22c:
Hillary isn't running against Obama in 2016. Her prospects are probably improved if Obama wins because running against an incumbent is usually harder.

I think Hillary has done the numbers and is betting Barry has blown this and won't close the deal next month; so she's running against a incumbent Romney in 2016 no matter what. She's making a tough calculation, which seems to her strong suit, and making her play to set up for 2016. She may end up wrong on that calculation (although current polling suggests she's spot on) but there's not much downside for her if she is.

quote:
Originally posted by yossarian22c:
That doesn't mean Romney won't end up attacking Obama over this but the number of security guards at individual consulates across the world is not a presidential level decision.

It's not about "the number of security guards at individual consulates across the world". Breaking it down to inconsequential details like that is not valid. If that's all it was about, the amateurish cover up of the last few weeks would not have occurred.

This is about ignoring multiple security threats, skipping intelligence briefings, rejecting multiple requests for more security and the cover up of the most serious attack on a U.S. diplomatic installation in 14 years. It's about a nation devoid of leadership and responsibility - if you follow Hillary along. I think the smart Democrats just might.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What does fascinate me about the "feud" is, only weeks before the election, that is the interview that Barry gives.
You're aware that he gives other interviews, right? I mean, I don't recall your getting upset by his appearance on Reddit. [Smile]
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AI Wessex
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"True, but the problem is that if Obama wins, that won't say much good about us as a nation either"

Neither says anything good about us?

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AI Wessex
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[G#:] "It's not about "the number of security guards at individual consulates across the world". Breaking it down to inconsequential details like that is not valid. If that's all it was about, the amateurish cover up of the last few weeks would not have occurred."

Well, consider that you break every story in which Obama is involved down to the smallest possible detail until you find dirt and then you swell that piece of dirt until it replaces the whole story that you started with so you can blame him for something. Aren't you even a little bit ashamed of twisting facts so hard to make them in a pretzel shape that mirrors your thinking process?

You realize that by demonizing Obama to such an extent you implicitly anoint Romney as the angel of your salvation. You do that even though you overlook mountains of dirt in your enthusiasm to get 'er done.

[DW:] "I think this time G3 may be onto something. Exploiting this perceived weakness will most likely be attempted. And I think he'll be thrilled with it regardless of the response."

What he's onto is the FOX program of character assassination and he's full up with KoolAid on that. *Every* politician and elected official has things that can be used to tear them down in the eyes of people who want nothing other than that. G# has found more of them than even Michelle Bachmann, and like her he likes a compelling story and has no regard for pesky facts.

We all have fun here (or try to), but his childish games diminish us all.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Neither says anything good about us?
Out of the hundreds millions people in America that are eligible for the presidency, the American political system has already effectively dismissed everyone but two.

If those two are both horrible choices, indeed it wouldn't say much of anything good for the political system and the American people if either gets the presidency. One choice probably says slightly less bad things than the other, since it would be a strange coincidence if both choices were *equally* bad.

Greece has a similar problem, except that in our case all 7 of the parties in the parliament are horrible; (though different in level of horribleness -- ranging from e.g. mere incompetent populists in the government, all the way to the Neonazi party)

[ October 16, 2012, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
What does fascinate me about the "feud" is, only weeks before the election, that is the interview that Barry gives.
You're aware that he gives other interviews, right? I mean, I don't recall your getting upset by his appearance on Reddit. [Smile]
I don't follow Reddit ... I know he's doing Us Magazine next. Maybe he'll do TV Guide.
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D.W.
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Al, what I meant was this topic has far more substance than his usual scatter shot attacks. It has at least some likelyhood of factoring into the debate if not the election. Even the specter of a cover-up would be a serious problem.

G3, you may be right on the American Idol thing. I'm alergic to these types of shows so no clue which one Nicky/Mariah are on.

On the bright side we should have the hard hitting question regarding pizza toppings tonight!

[ October 16, 2012, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pete at Home
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Aris, by Neonazis, do you mean the Golden Dawn party?

Thanks. (I'm not arguing; just informing myself)

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starLisa
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And now Obama is doing the only thing Hillary has left him. "Wait! No, I take responsibility, too!"
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AI Wessex
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"I don't follow Reddit ... I know he's doing Us Magazine next. Maybe he'll do TV Guide."

Perhaps if you were aware of how many such appearances both Romney and Obama have made you wouldn't feel so sensitive about just this one. Oops, Romney just canceled his View appearance scheduled for Thursday. On Live with Kelly and Michael we learned that donuts is Ann's favorite guilty pleasure and Romney's is...never mind, I don't want Mod to censor me.

Question: If Obama is ultimately responsible for the Benghazi attack, isn't he also responsible for killing Bin Laden (Romney says Bush is), and for saving GM (Romney says *he* deserves a lot of credit for that).

[ October 16, 2012, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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TCB
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Starlisa said:
quote:
And now Obama is doing the only thing Hillary has left him. "Wait! No, I take responsibility, too!"
One thing I've learned in my years of working in a large institution is that major disasters don't happen without many people making many mistakes, whether as individuals or as managers. Obama, Clinton, whoever's in charge of State Department affairs in North Africa, and whoever's in charge in Libya specifically each bear some responsibility. So it makes sense to say that both Obama and Clinton are responsible.

quote:
Question: If Obama is ultimately responsible for the Benghazi attack, isn't he also responsible for killing Bin Laden (Romney says Bush is), and for saving GM (Romney says *he* deserves a lot of credit for that).
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. [Smile]
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Wayward Son
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This keeps reminding me of when President Reagan took "full responsibility" for the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing.

Meant nothing then. Means nothing now. [Frown]

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TCB:
Starlisa said:
quote:
And now Obama is doing the only thing Hillary has left him. "Wait! No, I take responsibility, too!"
One thing I've learned in my years of working in a large institution is that major disasters don't happen without many people making many mistakes, whether as individuals or as managers. Obama, Clinton, whoever's in charge of State Department affairs in North Africa, and whoever's in charge in Libya specifically each bear some responsibility. So it makes sense to say that both Obama and Clinton are responsible.
And yet the timing says something else. Obama sat on his hands until Hillary stepped up.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
And yet the timing says something else. Obama sat on his hands until Hillary stepped up.

Obama doesn't internalize blame. It's never really his fault. By waiting till weeks later after Hillary has admitted responsibility, he's just coming out saying "Me too" after the immediate danger is past.

G3 was right, this move make Hillary Clinton look like a better leader. She was taking a risk. She still is really, since if it goes sour, she'll be the administrations scape goat. Kudos to her for lets someone else take the hit.

I can see a Congressional hearing sometime in the future. It was [strike]Bush's[/strike] Hillary's fault.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
And yet the timing says something else. Obama sat on his hands until Hillary stepped up.

Good point. All the shifting stories and blame on others but when Hillary gets kudos for being the responsible adult, Barry comes running up shouting "Me too, I did it too!". This is a really child-like reaction, we see it in the sub 8 year old crowd often - or on the MAD TV skit about Stuart Larkin (great stuff there).

This only cements the image of Hillary as the adult and Barry as the little boy with a constantly dazed and vacant look on his face trying to distract us by saying, "Look what I can do!" and performing a strange spasmodic debate.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Aris, by Neonazis, do you mean the Golden Dawn party?
Yeah.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
All the shifting stories and blame on others but when Hillary gets kudos for being the responsible adult...
I think you need to examine the timeframe here. Why is undue haste in ascertaining what happened a virtue? Are you demanding that people give explanations for things before they know the explanation?
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
All the shifting stories and blame on others but when Hillary gets kudos for being the responsible adult...
I think you need to examine the timeframe here. Why is undue haste in ascertaining what happened a virtue? Are you demanding that people give explanations for things before they know the explanation?
No, I think *you* need to examine the timeframe here. They claimed they *knew* the explanation. Insisted on it for days. Then, when that was obviously not going to work, started shifting it and trying to deny details. Look at something besides DU, you'll see.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
They claimed they *knew* the explanation.
When you say "they," who do you mean? Is it your contention that the entire administration speaks with a single voice?
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
They claimed they *knew* the explanation.
When you say "they," who do you mean? Is it your contention that the entire administration speaks with a single voice?
[Roll Eyes] If you want to walk away from this, you should have done it one post earlier. [LOL]
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AI Wessex
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I think Obama and his senior staff knew the gravity of the situation in the eyes of the Muslim world. In the first days they were trying to pinpoint the root cause and attempt to isolate it in order to inoculate the US from further acts of retaliation or revenge.

It's unfortunate the facts didn't come out quickly enough for them to have a seamless story, and still are not 100% out. They're not perfect, but if you demand perfection you have to admit that this is not a fundamental mistake on the order of invading Iraq because of WMD, though, wouldn't you?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If you want to walk away from this, you should have done it one post earlier.
No, I don't think so. Do you believe the fifty gazillion people who've been interviewed on this topic, at all levels of government, have done so with a full understanding of Obama's desired policy and the manner in which that policy was implemented?

For my part, the answer is "well, duh, of course not." Do you disagree?

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