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Author Topic: Talking Tough
AI Wessex
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"Cite one single "lie" that Romney tried to pass off during the debates."

Get off Tom's ass, all of you. If you want a single lie use the binders of women. They were given to him the day he took office, not because he asked for them. You can use Google to find the site of the organization that gave them to him and read how they did it.

Romney lied about that. It was an egregious lie, not because he misstated a fact on purpose, but because he did so to brag about his sensitivity to women's issues.

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DonaldD
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Well, to be fair Romney may simply have misremembered; on the other hand, once the Massachusetts Women's Political Caucus pointed out that the Massachusetts Government Appointments Project (MassGAP) actually was the source of those 'binders', and that they were presented to both major party candidates prior to the election, he probably should have corrected his statement. Now, it is possible that he still doesn't remember the specifics of the case in much the same way he does not remember cutting off the hair of his fellow student while in school.  Which might be worrisome, since questions concerning his memory issues would no longer be limited to actions in his distant past.
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AI Wessex
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Let's assume that he simply misremembered. My wife can tell you important things that I remember differently than she does (and am therefore wrong about [Wink] ), but if he doesn't take the time to stop and correct himself after having been told what actually happened, it then becomes more than a lie, it becomes mendacious propaganda because he told this lie for a political purpose. And if he would lie about this relatively minor inconsistency, what else more important would he lie about?

[ October 21, 2012, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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DonaldD
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But what if he still does not remember, even after your wife shows him the receipts?
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AI Wessex
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In that case one might wonder if he would he remember he was President if elected or wake up and ask the WH Chief of Staff for the day's portfolio of investment opportunities for Bain. His first question in the daily Cabinet meeting might be: "OK, nobody leaves the room until I get a straight answer: Who put the dog on the roof of my car last night?"
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noel c.
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SP, Al, DD,

Tom is a big boy. Get out of the way and let him hang himself.

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AI Wessex
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[Smile] . You are *so* blind.
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noel c.
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Al,

If that had not come from you, I might consider that an insult. Thankyou Al [Smile] ... now let Tom have his spotlight back.

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TomDavidson
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I'm honestly confused, noel.

Are you telling me that, having reviewed the transcripts of the debates, you cannot find Romney's claim that he does not intend to reduce taxes paid by the wealthy? And that you cannot find the segments in which he explains the various potential efficiency savings and deduction eliminations (largely on the middle class) that might offset the cost of his proposed tax cut? Or are you unable to find, in his published fiscal proposal, a mention of a proposed tax cut for the wealthy?

Or are you asking for evidence of something else? The items above appear to be sufficient to make my point, but I suppose it's possible that you've a) just skimmed the text and don't know where to look or b) misunderstood my point.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Cite one single "lie" that Romney tried to pass off during the debates."

Get off Tom's ass, all of you.

Dude, that's gnarlier than the "off my leg" expression that you all begged me to give up a few months ago.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
That is not a "lie" until you prove he will reduce taxes upon the rich.
He has promised to reduce taxes upon the rich, actually. Do you think he was lying about that? I'm certainly okay with accepting either one of those as a lie.

Infocom released a text adventure in the mid-'80s based on Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. One of the key puzzles required that you break the brain of a sentient door by possessing the inventory objects "Tea" and "No Tea" simultaneously. If you dropped "Tea," you picked up "No Tea;" if you picked up "Tea," you dropped "No Tea."

I submit that Romney cannot hold taxes on the rich at their current level while lowering taxes on the rich (as described in his proposed fiscal policy).

Unless he eliminates some common loophole used by the rich, thereby approximately in net, keeping taxes on the Rich the same.
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AI Wessex
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"Dude, that's gnarlier than the "off my leg" expression that you all begged me to give up a few months ago."

It's catchier, and it wasn't about me. I would never tell anybody to get off *my* ass, as the image would probably disturb both of us. <pause> See?

[ October 21, 2012, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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TomDavidson
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For this, I suggest you Google any of the analyses out there on this possibility, which point out that even optimistic math doesn't make that feasible.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Dude, that's gnarlier than the "off my leg" expression that you all begged me to give up a few months ago."

It's catchier, and it wasn't about me. I would never tell anybody to get off *my* ass, as the image would probably disturb both of us. <pause> See?

I found your metaphorical description of folks piled on Tom's ass no less disturbing, Al. I may need therapy. [Wink]
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
That is not a "lie" until you prove he will reduce taxes upon the rich.
He has promised to reduce taxes upon the rich, actually. Do you think he was lying about that? I'm certainly okay with accepting either one of those as a lie.

Infocom released a text adventure in the mid-'80s based on Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. One of the key puzzles required that you break the brain of a sentient door by possessing the inventory objects "Tea" and "No Tea" simultaneously. If you dropped "Tea," you picked up "No Tea;" if you picked up "Tea," you dropped "No Tea."

I submit that Romney cannot hold taxes on the rich at their current level while lowering taxes on the rich (as described in his proposed fiscal policy).

Unless he eliminates some common loophole used by the rich, thereby approximately in net, keeping taxes on the Rich the same.
Which one? No one else can figure out where that magical loophole is, because none seem to exist that would match the size of the break.

What's more, he claims that the reason for the the break in to give businesses more money to invest in growth (which is a lie in and of itself, because if they invested in growth, then it wouldn't be taxed as income to begin with), but if he's also not going to change the net amount that they pay in taxes by cutting deductions. At most one of those can be true- lower net taxes on businesses (that operate as individuals) to encourage growth or no net tax change on that same level of income. They absolutely both can't be true- either he's trying to lower net taxes on high incomes, or he's going to make sure they stay the same.

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noel c.
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Tom,

"I'm honestly confused..."...

... Yes, you are.

"... are you asking for evidence of something else?"...

I am asking for you to deliver on the evidence supporting these statements:

- "He has promised in his published tax plan to reduce taxes on the rich."

- "... and then explained in the debates the ways some of the cost of that cut might be offset."

- "He has also pointed out that he believes the lower classes need to be paying more of their 'fair share' of tax.."

- "Romney's tax plan clearly proposes a tax cut for the rich."

The only acceptable evidence for your claims needs to come from the sources that you cited:

- The video record of the two debates, with time reference for the relevant segment.

- The published 156 page Romney economic recovery plan.

Note: Reference to what someone else believes he intends to do, conservative or liberal, does not constitute evidence, much less "data". Failure to make this distinction is probably why people routinely ignore the "data" that you collect in your professional life.

[ October 21, 2012, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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TomDavidson
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*laugh* So you're basically admitting that you're unable to read? That's lovely. noel, I think you've made my point re: the futility of providing sources better than I could have ever wished. [Smile]

As a side note: you misquoted me, and continue to do so. I said I used to provide data to people who failed to make good use of it. This is not a reflection of my current career, thankfully; it is actually one of the reasons I left journalism and went into a more technical field, where data is actually appreciated on its intrinsic merits.

[ October 21, 2012, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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noel c.
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Tom,

That is your response? [Smile]

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TomDavidson
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I'm asking if you're admitting that you're unable to read.

Is this work that you are unable to do, or simply unwilling to do? If you have some infirmity that makes you unable to read those transcripts, perhaps I'll take pity on you. But frankly, I think you're being willfully blind and stupid, and I don't like wasting my time on your willful stupidity. I have no doubt that you're going to keep slicing your pretend ignorance thinner and thinner, demanding more and more documentation of this most blatantly obvious lie, until it becomes obvious that your defense is simply going to amount to continued, stubborn refusal to accept what is presented.

It's not an uncommon rhetorical strategy, of course. But my goal in this conversation was not to somehow convince you or G3 of the wrongness of your religious beliefs -- after all, you're both self-aware cartoon personas. My goal here, as initially asked of me by edgmatt, was to present him with one example of an indisputable, non-opinion-based Romney lie that's fairly simple to research.

I've done so.

If edgmatt comes back and asks me to do the research for him because he for some reason is unable to do so, I might consider it. But that's because I'd be inclined to believe him. From you, though, I know it's just a deliberate and disingenuous stalling tactic, so I don't feel like being that charitable.

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noel c.
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Tom,

I am curious, what technical field are you in that tolerates such a facile concept of evidence?

I will pretend that you do not understand how citations really work, and help a little. The claims that you made come from two sources (according to you). To validate your assertions from the debate video give me the debate number, and the minutes/seconds into the video at which the relevant dialogue occurs. For the Romney policy paper give the page number (1-156) with a corresponding quotation.

See, it is simple. You do not need to concern yourself about my reading ability until you actually produce the source material.

If you have further questions, don’t be embarrassed, just ask. I'm here to help.

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TomDavidson
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noel, stop bull****ting me, okay? Your attempts at insults are more pathetic than anything else, but it is genuinely insulting that you don't seem to think that I know exactly what you're pretending to do. Give me some credit, please.
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noel c.
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Give you some credit?

OK, here is what I have so far:

You fancy yourself an under appreciated journalist, and could not bear to see thoughtful analysis disregarded by peers, and consumers of your work product.

You felt it prudent to bless an (as yet) unspecified "technical" field with your gifts (yes, that's where I would recruit a technician from), and are so occupied in the hours you are not pounding away at Ornery that you feel it superfluous to accompany any statement of fact with a supporting source.

Oh, and I should add that you are surrounded in this world by liars (conservative mostly).

Did I miss anything substantive?

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TomDavidson
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noel, please listen. You're not any good at insulting me. There have been people on this board who've pulled it off, but you're not of their caliber and don't understand enough about me to know why what you intend to be barbs are missing so badly. Like I said, you've insulted me worse by accident, by not realizing that I know exactly what you're trying to do; I suspect it's because you have a very high opinion of what you think is a subtle rhetorical talent and don't realize that only a complete idiot wouldn't find your technique transparent, but it still feels like it reflects on me a little.
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Pete at Home
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Several years back, Thing One and Thing Three were calling each other "poo poo head" and other childish insults. Trying to introduce a little levity, I told Thing One that his insults were too childish and toilety, and suggested that instead he call Thing Three a "cheeseburger."

To my horror, and to Thing One's delight, Thing Three found "Cheeseburger" more offensive than any other insult since the dawn of time.

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AI Wessex
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G#, you'd better get in here quick. Noel is threatening your special status on Ornery. It's like the polls where Obama was in front and it looked like Romney was going to tank. Then Romney got into the first debate and lied his head off on nearly every topic while Obama stood idly by. Nobody believed Romney, but they liked his *energy* and the polls have swung to where the two candidates are now neck and neck. Noel did that to you with his painted/fat lady attack on Hillary, and you *did nothing*.

Don't let what happened to Obama happen to you. Get in here and say something outrageous and insulting. Noel is looking good for the Ornery fool standard-bearer. Act now!

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noel c.
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Tom,

Is there something that you find insidious about being pressed to deliver on the references that were so "clearly" evident when you first threw them out in anecdotal form?

There really is no "trick or trap" involved in my query. You are simply wrong.

I have some suspicions as to why your script is so far off the mark, but that can not even be tested until you come up with something a little weighter than "I just can not be bothered with actual citations".

As for the personal details of your professional life, I could not care less how thoroughly you have related them.

You are coming across as a self-satisfied ignoramus solely on the merits of what you have written in this thread.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
"I just can not be bothered with actual citations".

I stopped taking TomD seriously when he started taking that tact. Why bother wasting your time on somebody who can't be bothered to even make the attempt at proving their point? You might as well argue with the wall. It's a pointless exercise.
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TCB
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Most people instinctively think dishonesty is analog and lying is digital, but excessive dishonesty is a close enough approximation of a lie that you can simply call it a lie.

There's no need for citations. We're all knowledgeable enough to know what Romney did. He promised big tax cuts and promised that it would be deficit neutral. To the primary electorate he emphasized the separateness of the promises. Now, to the general electorate he's emphasizing their unity. He's converted the promise of a big tax cut to a promise of a minor accounting change.

Some will question whether he ever really promised a big tax cut, but it's clear from the context that's what he was doing. He was in the middle of a primary fight, he was losing ground to competitors who were promising ridiculous tax cuts, so he unveiled his own big tax cut to stop the bleeding.

It's clearly at least somewhat dishonest. We also know that every presidential candidate in the modern age has been at least somewhat dishonest. Whether Romney's change-up is dishonest enough to actually constitute a lie is probably a matter of opinion (I know I have mine [Smile] ).

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I stopped taking TomD seriously when he started taking that tact.
I took that tack well before you started reading Ornery, m'man. And have stood by it. I do not do citations. They bore me, and I do not post here to be bored.
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noel c.
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TCB,

I understand your position, and your conclusions are reasonable when working from a certain combination of assumptions that are at variance with the economic world as Romney sees it.

I happen to be more in philosophical conformity with Romney, but he was nowhere near my first choice for other reasons.

Tom made some statements that were false, and if he did not know then, he knows now that they were false. There is some utility in tracing that journey, but you need to give him a chance to do that publicly. I imagine that the exercise will alter what you are now inclined to call a "lie".

In saying that, I am under no illusion that the "47%" are going to be happier with clarification.

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TomDavidson
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*laugh* No, I most certainly do not know that I've made any statements whatsoever that were false, noel. But you go ahead and dig that grave, if you like. [Smile]

It is my hope that edgmatt, who seemed to be genuinely curious, got the information he needed. I couldn't honestly care less whether you feel more informed. *grin*

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noel c.
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JWatts,

You sure called that one.

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AI Wessex
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So, why hasn't anyone insisted that the "binders of women" story Romney told isn't a lie? You defenders of Romneys' truthfulness are attacking Tom on semantic grounds (not on the facts) but a simple admission that Romney lied on the women's issue would suffice.

Claiming that he simply misremembered the sequence of events would be an unsettling rationalization. It would mean that he casts himself in the hero's role whenever events can be twisted to cast credit on him.

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Pete at Home
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You mean that Romney must have been "lying" since you can't fit actual women into binders?
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Pyrtolin
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No he's lying about asking for the binders- he was presented with them by an external group (as was his opponent) and his overall hiring for top positions after that did not reflect paying much attention to them.

Also still up for grabs his his mutually contradictory position of saying that he's not going to cut net taxes on high incomes and keep the cuts revenue neutral while at the same time lowering effective high income tax rates because he thinks that businesses will invest more in growth when they're allowed to take more profits out of their business without it being imputed by taxes as an effective penalty to not reinvesting it in growth.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
noel, please listen. You're not any good at insulting me.

Well, you've proven that he is. Certainly he's got you in a twist. I'm starting to like that guy ... [LOL]
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AI Wessex
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Because that's the only thing that matters. The word for your form of rhetoric is "spitball". You have a willing acolyte in Noel, which makes the two of you recognizably the dumb and dumber twins. But, hey, like in the movie, as long as there's a 1 in a million chance you're right -- Yes! There's a chance!
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Certainly he's got you in a twist.
*sigh* No. Simply taking the time to contradict someone does not mean they've actually insulted me in some way, G3.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by G3:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
noel, please listen. You're not any good at insulting me.

Well, you've proven that he is. Certainly he's got you in a twist. I'm starting to like that guy ... [LOL]
You could learn some lessons from him ... he manages to enrage people more than you, without resorting to vulgarity or actually violating the rules. Fireworks follow him.
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noel c.
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... Interesting.

Tell me Pete, what specific lessons would you take from my posting style, and do you believe that I would have a similar effect upon a board primarily inhabited with conservatives?

[ October 24, 2012, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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