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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Colleen Francis, male parts hanging out with female high schoolers in the sauna (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Colleen Francis, male parts hanging out with female high schoolers in the sauna
cherrypoptart
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http://ben-girl-notesfromthetside.blogspot.com/2012/10/colleen-francis.html

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/

"Well it has finally happened. A "transgender woman" has infiltrated a girls facility and openly been found in a female only Sauna that was used by the facility for girls swim teams and other female students. Ms Francis is still packing a penis yet found it offensive that she was asked to leave to an area where high school age children were present. Here is the story and link.

The facility was at a local college and in its infinite wisdom the Olympia Washington school officials have sided with Ms Francis and a penis and the two girl's High School swim teams have been stripped of the Title IX rights so Ms Francis can relax in women's facilities in his comfort while the girls were restricted to a smaller and less useful locker room.

Do not young women have the right to dress and undress without the eyes of a "transgender woman" ogling them? Now I can honestly say I doubt Ms Francis is a big threat but look at his picture and picture yourself in a dressing room with that standing there with his male parts visible. It is both offensive and demeaning to the young women.

What is even more demeaning is the loss of Title IX for these teams which hurts them so Ms Francis can live out her fantasy. Ms Francis is a self defined lesbian and feminist but instead of doing the right thing here and simply NOT pushing this she did that because we all know little men never like to be denied their fantasy."

------------------------------------------

I guess I'm just seeking comfort here and reassurance that this is not a big deal and nothing to be concerned about.

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Viking_Longship
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As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

These teams should sue the school.

Evergreen, why am I not surprised?

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
I guess I'm just seeking comfort here and reassurance that this is not a big deal and nothing to be concerned about
No, I'm not actually sure what it is you're seeking.

I'd be engaging in motive speculation if I actually mentioned what it is I think you're doing, so I'll just mention instead that your lack of clarity about what it is you're doing is a typical pattern where you don't actually say anything but seem to imply much.

Facts of the case:
- It was a female-only sauna. (That's because Americans have a thing where it's okay to be nude in the presence of people of the same gender, but not okay to be nude in the presence of people of different gender. Personally I don't get it -- it always seemed bizarre to me when in American shows I saw all these open showers with people of the same gender showering together. Even during my stint at the Greek Army there tended to be separate and opaque shower stalls.)

- However the presence of gender ambiguity, means that a self-identified-gender doesn't actually always match perceived-by-others-gender. Which means that there exist incompatibilities in comfort-levels of those who seek to attend the sauna: e.g. many girls don't feel as comfortable being ogled by people with penises as they're at being ogled by people with vaginas.

Possible solutions:
- Kill and/or ostracize all the transgenders. (NOT morally acceptable by me, and hopefully not by you either, cherry)

- Have everyone be comfortable to be ogled by everyone with equal measure: Mixed-gender saunas only. My preferred long-term solution, as I think greater body-comfort is an all around good thing, but it's is currently unworkable for America and most of the rest of the world. Might work for Scandinavia though.

- Specify clearly in the rules that it's the *morphology*, not the self-identification that's actually the distinguishing criterion -- the sauna doesn't care about self-identification, only about perceived sexual anatomy; because that's what other sauna-goers will as a practical matter pattern-match you as. So as long as you have a penis you visit the penis-only saunas, once you get it tucked away you get to visit the sans-penis saunas.

But honestly, people tend to be insane, so how it will go will instead all depend on who can say "No, *I* am offended more." the loudest. And therefore instead of thinking rationally about the case and finding a mutually acceptable solution, everyone will just try to compare how outraged they are.

[ November 02, 2012, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

Is the existence of a ankle spanker the only difference between men and women? What if you're peniplegic? Does that make a person not male too?

[ November 02, 2012, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by G3:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

Is the existence of a ankle spanker the only difference between men and women? What if you're peniplegic? Does that make a person not male too?
I don't understand why nobody here likes you. You occasionally write these posts and make it all worthwhile.
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G3
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It's about fear. They don't like me because they cannot intimidate me, that makes them scared and, like most people, they lash out when they're scared. [Wink]
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

Yes, this is certainly true in the eyes of most people. The death of any kind of reasonable code of contact in favor of special interests lobbying for accommodation by everyone else will lead to a fracturing of the American common bond.

quote:
Originally posted by G3:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

Is the existence of a ankle spanker the only difference between men and women?
And that comment made me laugh. [Big Grin]

[ November 02, 2012, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: JWatts ]

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TommySama
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The more I read about this, the more I realize that this is the most awesome story I have ever been exposed to.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by G3:
It's about fear. They don't like me because they cannot intimidate me, that makes them scared and, like most people, they lash out when they're scared. [Wink]

That and you're sexy and you know it..
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by G3:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
As long as you still have male parts you're not a woman.

Is the existence of a ankle spanker the only difference between men and women? What if you're peniplegic? Does that make a person not male too?
Touche'
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cherrypoptart
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> Aris Katsaris


> I'd be engaging in motive speculation if I actually mentioned what it is I think you're doing...

Your intuition here is absolutely spot on. That's the thing about political correctness is that you can't say exactly what you mean so you have to leave it all just kind of floating out there ambiguously, kind of like the lady in this story here.

I'll come clean a little more then, I suppose. This story is absolutely awesome because it shows the unintended but often entirely predictable consequences of policies that seem "fair" at first glance but don't take into account the fact that people will always push them too far. I laugh every time I see a story like this because it begs the obvious question. You really didn't see that coming?

That's what she said...

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
That's the thing about political correctness is that you can't say exactly what you mean
Whiney self-pitying nonsense: You aren't living in Iran, or even in Greece, and even if you had said "I think optimal policy would be to exile all transgenders to Lichtenstein" there'd be zero negative consequences for you.

quote:
it begs the obvious question: You really didn't see that coming?
I see 'coming' the time when people who've self-modified to have two penises, three breasts, and a couple of tentacles, will also need to know which sauna they can attend.

What I don't see is what you actually propose to do with our two-penii three-breasted tentacled descendants.

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cherrypoptart
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It's kind of interesting that you bring up humods as I just finished listening to the audio books of Elizabeth Moon's Vatta series which you might also enjoy. Some gyms have co-ed saunas where everyone is supposed to wear a bathing suit so that's where I see this going eventually, and I don't have any problem with it.
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starLisa
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I think the issue of passing is relevant here. If she looked like a woman, the issue would never have arisen. The woman whose blog this was posted on is trans herself, but she's post-op.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Possible solutions:
- Kill and/or ostracize all the transgenders. (NOT morally acceptable by me, and hopefully not by you either, cherry)

That's silly. But look... this is one of the problems with the term "transgender". It was invented by someone born male who was living as female without any intention of ever having surgery. And the term was invented because transsexuals (people who do intend to have surgery to fix a mistake) didn't want to include them.

A person who has a penis and likes having a penis and intends to hold on (pardon) to that penis is not a woman. Full stop. Now... there are grey areas, like someone who wants surgery, but can't afford it. Or someone who wants surgery, but is HIV+, so no one will do the surgery. I've met people in both of these situations. But I've also met people who are quite happy with their anatomy, but want to be treated as women. And while I'm willing to be polite to them and treat them the way they want in most situations, I do not think that they have the right to intrude in women-only spaces.

Maybe gender identity is a spectrum like orientation is. I don't know. But someone who is comfortable with having male genitalia clearly isn't "gender dysphoric" enough for me to buy them having a female gender identity.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
I'll come clean a little more then, I suppose. This story is absolutely awesome because it shows the unintended but often entirely predictable consequences of policies that seem "fair" at first glance but don't take into account the fact that people will always push them too far. I laugh every time I see a story like this because it begs the obvious question. You really didn't see that coming?
Except such problems, as much as they're implied here- that the woman in question must be a pervert or perhaps even a pedophile are complete nonsense if they're making the call based on physical characteristics. It even suggests that they might turn a blind eye to the same behavior from a woman who passed their physical standards. The reporting would have a lot better credibility if it kept its focus on the aspects of her behavior that actually seemed to indicate a predatory intent and didn't distract from relevant issues by making hay over what should, at worst, be considered a birth defect, if not just a bit of variance. The fact that she's transgendered should be no more relevant to the issue than if she were hunchbacked or left handed, respectively.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
But someone who is comfortable with having male genitalia clearly isn't "gender dysphoric" enough for me to buy them having a female gender identity.
How does not having one particular trauma that can be caused by having a gender identity that's out of line with one's current physical shape serve to invalidate said person's identity and, effectively serve as an excuse to let others dictate their identity for them?
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Funean
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This is not a good example of trans anything. The individual in this story reportedly had several blogs going that detailed his enjoyment of sex with very young women, active membership in the BDSM community, and appreciation of and enthusiastic use of his penis. He has reportedly been deleting posts and one entire blog, but there are places where posts have been quoted. He also reportedly engaged in deliberate genital display in the locker room, which as Lisa notes is not at all consistent with a pre-op TS. This is not a case of gender dysphoria, this is pretty clearly an adult male fetishist who has engineered an opportunity for sexual transgression, not transexual expression. In fact, I would go so far as to say this was a sexually aggressive act, completely out of synch with the way a genuinely transsexual woman (pre or post op) would behave.

What this does do is expose how ill-equipped our legal system is to deal with the difference between circumstances where physical sex is relevant and where it is not. In the rush to create safe places for transsexuals, the existence of safe places for women is eroded. It's also worth paying attention to the difference between the transgender community and the transsexual community. The terms are not interchangable.

[ November 04, 2012, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Funean ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
The individual in this story reportedly had several blogs going that detailed his enjoyment of sex with very young women,
This is a relevant point and where the issue directly lies. And would apply just as much, regardless of the person's plumbing.

quote:
active membership in the BDSM community, and appreciation of and enthusiastic use of his penis.
These aren't really relevant.

quote:
He has reportedly been deleting posts and one entire blog, but there are places where posts have been quoted. He also reportedly engaged in deliberate genital display in the locker room,
These are also relevant, and, again, would apply even if this were a ciswoman.

quote:
which as Lisa notes is not at all consistent with a pre-op TS.
But non necessarily for a non-op.

quote:
This is not a case of gender dysphoria,
Sure- but dysphoria is a disorder that can be cause by being transgendered, it's not a defining aspect of being transgendered.

quote:
this is pretty clearly an adult male fetishist who has engineered an opportunity for sexual transgression, not transexual expression. In fact, I would go so far as to say this was a sexually aggressive act,

Change male to female there and the statement could be just as true, drop it completely as unnecessary and it's more accurate and to the point, because the gender identity of the person in question is completely irrelevant to the behavior in question - whether it be a straight/bi mail or a bi/gay woman.

Putting gender in as an issue here instead of of focusing on the actual bad behavior only serve to marginalize certain segments of the overall transgender community and it leaves a bit of an implication that a fair portion of the people up in arms about it would give someone that they consider a "real woman" a pass if they behaved the same way.

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Funean
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Sorry, Pyr, but I have more of an issue with a sexually aggressive penis-owner who uses said penis being in the locker room with my naked kid than I do with either a non-penis-owner or a penis-owner who has has disavowed use of said article. In other words, this is clearly a sexually active and equipped male in a locker room with young women. That is more problematic than a sexually active and equipped post-op transsexual, pre-op transexual, or born-female. My child's safety trumps his feelings.

[ November 04, 2012, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Funean ]

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PegLeg
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
I think the issue of passing is relevant here. If she looked like a woman, the issue would never have arisen.

I think it was more an issue of her not covering up rather then how well she passed.
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cherrypoptart
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Right Peg, she apparently enjoyed treating high school girls to "The Full Monty" even if some of them may have been too young to even get into the movie.

If she didn't consider herself a female this might be considered flashing or indecent exposure or something. It looks like a nice loophole was found to do the same thing but put the blame on the victims if they complain, making them the bigots and the perp the victim. It's actually quite ingenious in some ways, though entirely predictable for many of us.

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Aris Katsaris
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Funean, if there was a female weightlifter with the tattoo 'i like to molest little girls' inscribed on her, surely that would be a potential threat too to make parents reasonably wary, even if she is born female? No transgender/transsexual issues required?

There's no need for a lesbian component either: Would e.g. a jewish or black girl feel comfortable if she was alone with a pair of swastika-sporting older and stronger white women -- even if they're hetero?

What is needed is really just a plain and simple rule that the administration of the sauna/facilities can arbitrarily decide that they can permanently expel anyone who is felt reduces the comfort/enjoyment/feeling of safety of any other person there, for any reason whatsoever, no justification given.

Some commonsense guidelines can of course be given, but at the end gray areas will have to decided per-case by an intelligent decision-maker in charge.

[ November 05, 2012, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by G3:
It's about fear. They don't like me because they cannot intimidate me, that makes them scared and, like most people, they lash out when they're scared. [Wink]

That and you're sexy and you know it..
I'm too sexy for my post
Too sexy for my post
Love's going to leave me
I'm too sexy for my post
Too sexy for my post
So sexy it hurts


Song stuck in my head all day now ... and ...

And I'm too sexy for your forum
Too sexy for your forum
No way I'm disco dancing
I'm a model you know what I mean
And I do my little turn on the catwalk
Yeah on the catwalk on the catwalk, yeah
I do my little turn on the catwalk

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Funean
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quote:
What is needed is really just a plain and simple rule that the administration of the sauna/facilities can arbitrarily decide that they can permanently expel anyone who is felt reduces the comfort/enjoyment/feeling of safety of any other person there, for any reason whatsoever, no justification given.

There is so much potential for excess and abuse there that I can't agree, except when it comes to the limited set of specially-designated safe places for particular populations--most obviously children. Because otherwise we're throwing people out of Republican rallies for being black and that sort of thing. Now, when it comes to behaviors, sure. Once people start acting up, I'm fine with the heave-ho.
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Pete at Home
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I agree with Funean.

Aris: "if there was a female weightlifter with the tattoo 'i like to molest little girls' inscribed on her, surely that would be a potential threat too to make parents reasonably wary, even if she is born female?"?

You don't need a "no reason given" rule to toss that person out; a reasonableness standard would do. But as a practical matter, female child molesters tend to get a MASSIVE pass in the United States; child molestation even gets glorified in the Vagina Monologues.

For simple solutions, we need to either do away with group shower facilities in favor of individual cubicles, or else say screw it and go with group unisex showers. Simply change the bleeding standard of modesty.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
Sorry, Pyr, but I have more of an issue with a sexually aggressive penis-owner who uses said penis being in the locker room with my naked kid than I do with either a non-penis-owner or a penis-owner who has has disavowed use of said article. In other words, this is clearly a sexually active and equipped male in a locker room with young women. That is more problematic than a sexually active and equipped post-op transsexual, pre-op transexual, or born-female. My child's safety trumps his feelings.

Even if she was pre-op, if she was taking estrogen injections, wouldn't that prevent her getting an erection?
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LinuxFreakus
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I don't really see what difference it should really make. We make far too big a deal out of nudity in the USA. It is borderline ridiculous really.

I don't see what the big deal would really be if all locker rooms were just gender neutral, problem solved. Instead we'd rather teach everyone to be afraid because of some vague reasoning that nobody can really explain.

Some are immediately jumping in and crying child abuse and pervert, etc... as if there is any indication that this has anything to do with sexual abuse. As far as I can see nothing happened. A couple people were just "uncomfortable"....

[ November 10, 2012, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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PegLeg
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Even if she was pre-op, if she was taking estrogen injections, wouldn't that prevent her getting an erection?

Not necessarily, and she is reportedly on a low dose via patch.
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PegLeg
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I struggle with this story about Colleen because while don't think it was a sexual thing or that she is a predator, I don't understand why she would let herself be seen like that if she identifies as a woman either.

I think this because a man that wants to see some naked women and flash people is not likely to go to the lengths of legally changing their identity, live as a woman and openly transgender (taking on everything that comes with that) for a little enjoyment in the women's locker room. That does not make sense, there are easier ways for him to get a little thrill.

I guess maybe Colleen is someone in-between that is seriously lacking common sense and consideration for other people but she seems to have plenty of arrogance. That is the impression I get.

It leaves me disappointed because of the controversy her actions caused and people using it to validate their fears about men using transgender protection / rights laws to get into women's spaces - which is always the argument against those laws / protections, and those arguments built on those fears usually win.

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by PegLeg:
I don't understand why she would let herself be seen like that if she identifies as a woman either.

Why does it matter what the person looks like? Aren't there plenty of people out that who some people are "uncomfortable" looking at? Obese people, disabled people, etc... they all use locker rooms too right? Should anyone who doesn't look "normal" be expected to cover up for fear of offending someone?
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D.W.
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I think the point was for someone who's body is viewed as contrary to how they identify their sex it is counter intuitive to place themselves in situations where their gender would be "mistaken".

It's not a question of if WE are uncomfortable viewing them. We assume THEY would be uncofortable being viewed. At least that's how some of us ignorent heteros interpret it.

[ November 11, 2012, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:

It's not a question of if WE are uncomfortable viewing them. We assume THEY would be uncofortable being viewed. At least that's how some of us ignorent heteros interpret it.

Yeah, I got that, but it still sounds like more of a projection of the other people's fears. If someone feels like a woman but looks like a man, that's just the way they are and they would struggle with that issue regardless of whether they covered their genitals. I feel like the issue of going naked in the sauna would be pretty much the same.
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:

It's not a question of if WE are uncomfortable viewing them. We assume THEY would be uncofortable being viewed. At least that's how some of us ignorent heteros interpret it.

Yeah, I got that, but it still sounds like more of a projection of the other people's fears. If someone feels like a woman but looks like a man, that's just the way they are and they would struggle with that issue regardless of whether they covered their genitals. I feel like the issue of going naked in the sauna would be pretty much the same.
I think it's more an issue of behavior that appears to go contrary to all past behavior. They may struggle regardless but if they tend to respond to that struggle by going to great lengths to look more like a woman and less like a man it seems unusual to not make a token effort to cover up the most obvious man-looking trait.

It's like if someone who feels like a woman but looks like a man decides to wear women clothes, shave their legs, wear a bra, puts on make up, and then grows out a big bushy mustache.

I can understand if one masculine trait is harder to change or hide so no attempt is made. However it is more confusing when all it takes is an effort to keep the towel over you.

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by LoverOfJoy:
However it is more confusing when all it takes is an effort to keep the towel over you.

Is that all it takes? I think most people who can see at least as well as Mr. Magoo would probably still notice [Smile]

I fail to see why a towel would make it all better.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by PegLeg:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Even if she was pre-op, if she was taking estrogen injections, wouldn't that prevent her getting an erection?

Not necessarily, and she is reportedly on a low dose via patch.
Well, that's one reasonable place to draw the line. If the subject is FUNCTIONALLY male, wimping out on the E shots, then said subject should not be treated as transgendered for purposes of letting her in the women's locker rooms.
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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by PegLeg:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Even if she was pre-op, if she was taking estrogen injections, wouldn't that prevent her getting an erection?

Not necessarily, and she is reportedly on a low dose via patch.
Well, that's one reasonable place to draw the line. If the subject is FUNCTIONALLY male, wimping out on the E shots, then said subject should not be treated as transgendered for purposes of letting her in the women's locker rooms.
What difference does it make if the penis is functional?
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Pete at Home
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Because, Linux, I think that it's reasonable for high school girls in our culture to feel threatened if someone is sitting in the woman's locker room staring at the girls, while sporting a visibly erect penis.

And also, because there are plenty of guys that would say, hey, I want to be considered female, and slap on some silly patch, in order to go watch women undress.

One might say draw the line at post-op transexuals.

One might say, draw the line at functionality, e.g. male erection or at female menstruation (which IIRC is suppressed by T injections).

Alternately, one could say, draw no lines, and make bathrooms and dressing rooms unisex.

What's stupid is to foster a sense of gender modesty with separate bathrooms, and then turn around and flout that modesty with a stupid rule that someone can simply elect to be male or female on any particular day.

[ November 11, 2012, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Because, Linux, I think that it's reasonable for high school girls in our culture to feel threatened if someone is sitting in the woman's locker room staring at the girls, while sporting a visibly erect penis.

And nothing like that happened.
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Pete at Home
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Linux, please try to keep track of your own questions.

YOU asked: "What difference does it make if the penis is functional?"

I replied: " Because, Linux, I think that it's reasonable for high school girls in our culture to feel threatened if someone is sitting in the woman's locker room staring at the girls, while sporting a visibly erect penis."

That's the answer to your question. If you think it was an irrelevant question, then you should not have asked it.

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