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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Colleen Francis, male parts hanging out with female high schoolers in the sauna (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Colleen Francis, male parts hanging out with female high schoolers in the sauna
LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:

That's the answer to your question. If you think it was an irrelevant question, then you should not have asked it.

Heh, ok. But you know that wasn't the situation here. If nothing happened, they why does it matter? I presume all the "normal" women who use the locker room also have fully functional vaginas.

[ November 11, 2012, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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starLisa
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Functional or not is utterly irrelevant. Teenaged girls go into a girls sauna, they don't expect to see a dick. Sorry to be crude about it, but that's the bottom line. And they shouldn't have to be put in that situation just because some insensitive, self-centered, thoughtless creep wants to assert themselves.
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Pete at Home
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I generally agree with you, Lisa. Since our culture and laws has (for right or wrong) inculcated a sense of gender modesty, and since there is such thing as a "Girl's sauna" to begin with, they should not be seeing male parts when they are in there. But I still think that erectable male parts adds another level of offense to the equation.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Possible solutions:
- Kill and/or ostracize all the transgenders. (NOT morally acceptable by me, and hopefully not by you either, cherry)

That's silly. But look... this is one of the problems with the term "transgender". It was invented by someone born male who was living as female without any intention of ever having surgery. And the term was invented because transsexuals (people who do intend to have surgery to fix a mistake) didn't want to include them.

A person who has a penis and likes having a penis and intends to hold on (pardon) to that penis is not a woman. Full stop. Now... there are grey areas, like someone who wants surgery, but can't afford it. Or someone who wants surgery, but is HIV+, so no one will do the surgery. I've met people in both of these situations. But I've also met people who are quite happy with their anatomy, but want to be treated as women. And while I'm willing to be polite to them and treat them the way they want in most situations, I do not think that they have the right to intrude in women-only spaces.

Maybe gender identity is a spectrum like orientation is. I don't know. But someone who is comfortable with having male genitalia clearly isn't "gender dysphoric" enough for me to buy them having a female gender identity.

From one acquaintance of mine, this story, and the story of the female->male TS that then got pregnant and called a news conference, I'm wondering if we shouldn't create a third term and category entirely for folks that are NOT interested in conforming at all to a different gender, but more interested in getting attention by creating gender-related broohahs?

(Correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa, but I had understood that the transexual community generally was generally uncomfortable with the massive confusion over that "male pregnancy" story.)

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
Functional or not is utterly irrelevant. Teenaged girls go into a girls sauna, they don't expect to see a dick. Sorry to be crude about it, but that's the bottom line. And they shouldn't have to be put in that situation just because some insensitive, self-centered, thoughtless creep wants to assert themselves.

Nope, it is not expected as these situations are relatively rare but what harm did it cause? I fail to see the difference between this and all the arguments people use against gay people.
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Pete at Home
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I respectfully propose that this thread be rr-titled as: THE EMPEROR'S NEW VAGINA.

any objections?

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I respectfully propose that this thread be rr-titled as: THE EMPEROR'S NEW VAGINA.

any objections?

I think that would be rather childish, though I'm sure there are others on here who would second your "respectful" motion.

[ November 12, 2012, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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D.W.
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o/ aye
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I generally agree with you, Lisa. Since our culture and laws has (for right or wrong) inculcated a sense of gender modesty, and since there is such thing as a "Girl's sauna" to begin with, they should not be seeing male parts when they are in there. But I still think that erectable male parts adds another level of offense to the equation.

Sure it would. Wanking would be an even higher level of offense. But mentioning those things when they didn't happen in this case only distracts from what this person did do wrong.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:

From one acquaintance of mine, this story, and the story of the female->male TS that then got pregnant and called a news conference, I'm wondering if we shouldn't create a third term and category entirely for folks that are NOT interested in conforming at all to a different gender, but more interested in getting attention by creating gender-related broohahs?[/QUOTE]

Generally, the younger ones use the term "genderqueer", which, while I hate the word queer and wouldn't use it for myself, seems to fit the bill for that.

quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
(Correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa, but I had understood that the transexual community generally was generally uncomfortable with the massive confusion over that "male pregnancy" story.)

It made me want to punch someone. But punching someone who is pregnant is tacky.

Same with the idiots who went down to Texas and had a same sex wedding because Texas law saw them as an opposite sex couple. Some people just don't friggin' think.

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I generally agree with you, Lisa. Since our culture and laws has (for right or wrong) inculcated a sense of gender modesty, and since there is such thing as a "Girl's sauna" to begin with, they should not be seeing male parts when they are in there. But I still think that erectable male parts adds another level of offense to the equation.

Sure it would. Wanking would be an even higher level of offense. But mentioning those things when they didn't happen in this case only distracts from what this person did do wrong.
Last time I checked, this person didn't do anything wrong, nobody was hurt, nothing happened. Nothing remarkable happened, just an overreaction by a few people. I'm pretty sure some of the team members have even said they didn't feel threatened at all and didn't really see a problem with it (though I don't know if this is confirmed, it has been reported in some of the news stories though).

The problem seems to stem from the fact that some people have the mistaken belief nudity somehow leads to sexual predators or something. I'm not quite sure what the logic is supposed to be but it doesn't make any sense. People use the same sort of flawed logic to try to shut down nude beaches and such all the time.

[ November 12, 2012, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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LinuxFreakus
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Though with regard to the nude beaches, people do tend to go to those expecting to see nude people of both genders, the fact that they are public places is the main hangup I guess.

[ November 12, 2012, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Pete at Home
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"The problem seems to stem from the fact that some people have the mistaken belief nudity somehow leads to sexual predators or something."

You have have it exactly backwards, Linux. It's not perception of predation, it's predation on a perception.

If your society teaches women that it's a sexual violation for a man to walk up and touch her on the elbow without her consent, then if a man walks up and does that, with the intent to get a reaction, then he *has* violated her within the confines of that culture.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
Though with regard to the nude beaches, people do tend to go to those expecting to see nude people

Exactly! It's a reasonable expectation that if you go to a nude beach, you're going to see naked men and naked women. If a nudist husband and wife wanted to raise their kids naked within the house, I'd defend their right to do so! But within a Girl's sauna, I think there's a reasonable expectation that the girls aren't going to see penises. If you think that expectation is unreasonable, then make it illegal to restrict saunas to one sex or the other.
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LinuxFreakus
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I guess part of the problem also is that these girls were apparently unattended in an adult locker room? If the parents are so concerned about the safety of their child why do they let that happen (not that the kids were in any danger, just saying...)?
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I generally agree with you, Lisa. Since our culture and laws has (for right or wrong) inculcated a sense of gender modesty, and since there is such thing as a "Girl's sauna" to begin with, they should not be seeing male parts when they are in there. But I still think that erectable male parts adds another level of offense to the equation.

Sure it would. Wanking would be an even higher level of offense. But mentioning those things when they didn't happen in this case only distracts from what this person did do wrong.
Last time I checked, this person didn't do anything wrong, nobody was hurt, nothing happened.
This person absolutely did something wrong. And selfish. And deliberately provocative. And obnoxious.

quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
Nothing remarkable happened, just an overreaction by a few people.

Really. There's nothing I can say in response to that that the moderator won't remove.

quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
The problem seems to stem from the fact that some people have the mistaken belief nudity somehow leads to sexual predators or something. I'm not quite sure what the logic is supposed to be but it doesn't make any sense. People use the same sort of flawed logic to try to shut down nude beaches and such all the time.

So you'd think it's okay for a guy to wag his weenie in front of a bunch of girls?
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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
This person absolutely did something wrong. And selfish. And deliberately provocative. And obnoxious.

What was it they did wrong then?

quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
So you'd think it's okay for a guy to wag his weenie in front of a bunch of girls?

I don't believe I suggested anything of the sort, and you know that didn't happen here. You are trying to turn this into some sort of assault that never happened.

Also this is not just "a guy". This person is mentally a woman. You can't simply dress as a woman and walk in, this person has years of medical history regarding this issue. Not to mention, there are plenty of women (anatomically) who are predators, and there is still nothing stopping them from using the facilities either.

[ November 12, 2012, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Funean
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"This person is mentally a woman"

On what do you base this? What I have read suggests that he is taking estrogen more or less recreationally, has no intention of having his penis converted into anything else, and in fact plans to continue enthusiastically using said penis. In all seriousness, is it the use of an estrogen patch that he has gone on record as saying he uses because it makes him "horny" all that distinguishes him from a cross-dresser (which is not at all the same as trans)?

It is not the existence of his penis that suggests that his motives are less than pure here so much as his deliberate exposure of it in a setting where he knew it would be, erm, explosive (I'm actually exercising quite a bit of restraint when it comes to the potential puns here...)

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
Though with regard to the nude beaches, people do tend to go to those expecting to see nude people

Exactly! It's a reasonable expectation that if you go to a nude beach, you're going to see naked men and naked women. If a nudist husband and wife wanted to raise their kids naked within the house, I'd defend their right to do so! But within a Girl's sauna, I think there's a reasonable expectation that the girls aren't going to see penises. If you think that expectation is unreasonable, then make it illegal to restrict saunas to one sex or the other.
I hate to say it but you are making accurate statements here Pete. I don't normally have opportunities to say this based on past discussions, so you can enjoy it a little [Smile]

I think based on the setup we tend to have at pretty much all gyms (in the USA anyway) there probably is that expectation, and I'm not sure how we could develop a good efficient solution to this problem without, as you say, doing away with separate gender facilities. I wouldn't have a problem with that, but many who have spent their life in our prudish culture would obviously have strenuous objections.

If that is off the table, I guess the only other option is to do a better job of communicating to people who may enter the facilities that there may be transgendered individuals who use the facility so there will be no surprises.... or as some would have it, we could enact discriminatory policies/laws and make the ignorant people happy.

[ November 12, 2012, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
"This person is mentally a woman"

On what do you base this? What I have read suggests that he is taking estrogen more or less recreationally, has no intention of having his penis converted into anything else, and in fact plans to continue enthusiastically using said penis. In all seriousness, is it the use of an estrogen patch that he has gone on record as saying he uses because it makes him "horny" all that distinguishes him from a cross-dresser (which is not at all the same as trans)?

It is not the existence of his penis that suggests that his motives are less than pure here so much as his deliberate exposure of it in a setting where he knew it would be, erm, explosive (I'm actually exercising quite a bit of restraint when it comes to the potential puns here...)

I haven't seen anyplace where she has gone on record saying anything of the sort. Supposedly there was a dating website where she said that estrogen made her horny... but how many people out there (men and women) have provocative profiles on dating websites? That doesn't really mean anything.

Maybe the health risks of becoming more anatomically female are part of the issue? Who can say... but regardless, it seems pretty clear that she is mentally a woman, the school I'm sure must have required medical certification before allowing this. I've seen nothing that says otherwise. I don't claim to have inside information though.

[ November 12, 2012, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
"This person is mentally a woman"

On what do you base this? What I have read suggests that he is taking estrogen more or less recreationally, has no intention of having his penis converted into anything else, and in fact plans to continue enthusiastically using said penis. In all seriousness, is it the use of an estrogen patch that he has gone on record as saying he uses because it makes him "horny" all that distinguishes him from a cross-dresser (which is not at all the same as trans)?

It is not the existence of his penis that suggests that his motives are less than pure here so much as his deliberate exposure of it in a setting where he knew it would be, erm, explosive (I'm actually exercising quite a bit of restraint when it comes to the potential puns here...)

[Big Grin]

Aside from applause for your wordplay, I'm delighted that you agree with me that the estrogen patch factor is relevant. (even though I agree with Lisa that functionality is not ultimately dispositive).

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Pete at Home
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I don't think that estrogen makes anyone horny ... my understanding that testosterone is what leads to horniness, even in women.

I've heard of one interesting case where an F->M transitioning person found that testosterone awoke a previously dormant sexual attraction to men ...

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Funean
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Well, the only relevance the estrogen patch has is that he has said that he has no intention of becoming a woman; that that's not why he uses it. He claims to be a transwoman, but I honestly haven't seen anything to suggest that he's anything other than a heterosexual man with a cross-dressing fetish.

Linus, he had a much bigger internet presence before this story started getting wide exposure. He's deleted a couple of blogs and a lot of posts on alt sex type sites.

I'm actually more annoyed by the way this kind of stuff smears and confuses things for the genuinely inter- and trans- people out there. He's pretty much a fetishist and he comes across as as sexually aggressive freak, which doesn't help real transfolks, who are about the worst treated people around.

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
Well, the only relevance the estrogen patch has is that he has said that he has no intention of becoming a woman; that that's not why he uses it. He claims to be a transwoman, but I honestly haven't seen anything to suggest that he's anything other than a heterosexual man with a cross-dressing fetish.

Linus, he had a much bigger internet presence before this story started getting wide exposure. He's deleted a couple of blogs and a lot of posts on alt sex type sites.

I'm actually more annoyed by the way this kind of stuff smears and confuses things for the genuinely inter- and trans- people out there. He's pretty much a fetishist and he comes across as as sexually aggressive freak, which doesn't help real transfolks, who are about the worst treated people around.

Well I don't know maybe this person is a creep and I never saw the story until a lot of info "disappeared" but the stuff I've seen doesn't seem too shocking. As I understand it, it is pretty normal for trans-women to still be attracted to women, or other trans-women, even post op.

There may be plenty of lesbian non-transgender women in locker rooms who enjoy looking at the women in there (but don't do anything inappropriate). I dunno, I just don't see a large issue here (or anything that *should* be a large issue rather).

[ November 12, 2012, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by LinuxFreakus:
Though with regard to the nude beaches, people do tend to go to those expecting to see nude people

Exactly! It's a reasonable expectation that if you go to a nude beach, you're going to see naked men and naked women. If a nudist husband and wife wanted to raise their kids naked within the house, I'd defend their right to do so! But within a Girl's sauna, I think there's a reasonable expectation that the girls aren't going to see penises. If you think that expectation is unreasonable, then make it illegal to restrict saunas to one sex or the other.
I hate to say it but you are making accurate statements here Pete. I don't normally have opportunities to say this based on past discussions, so you can enjoy it a little [Smile]
I do enjoy it. Hope you'll read me more carefully in the future than in the past, and you may find that I'm a lot more liberal on culture issues than you may have assumed.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
I'm actually more annoyed by the way this kind of stuff smears and confuses things for the genuinely inter- and trans- people out there. He's pretty much a fetishist and he comes across as as sexually aggressive freak, which doesn't help real transfolks, who are about the worst treated people around.

I agree. Real Transfolks are the real victims of this public abuse of Title IX.

In case anyone suspects that Funean is exaggerating when she speaks of transfolks being among the worst treated persons around in our society, consider the story of "Jack" on YouTube. Heartwrenching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0NaR3jz5Zc&list=UUFD9_xNjUYYRxIMBpPtF0og&index=1&feature=plcp

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
So you'd think it's okay for a guy to wag his weenie in front of a bunch of girls?

In certain tribes in New Guinea, it certainly is OK, since modesty there requires only that an adult man cover the very tip of his penis with a sort of gourd.

In our contemporary culture, beyond infancy, it's certainly not OK for a male to wag his penis in front of a bunch of girls.

I believe that the fact that modesty requirements vary from culture to culture, and the fact that the lines seem arbitrarily drawn, does NOT mean that the lines aren't important. The boundaries signify human dignity, and flouting such boundaries manifests an assault on human dignity.

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
I'm actually more annoyed by the way this kind of stuff smears and confuses things for the genuinely inter- and trans- people out there. He's pretty much a fetishist and he comes across as as sexually aggressive freak, which doesn't help real transfolks, who are about the worst treated people around.

I agree. Real Transfolks are the real victims of this public abuse of Title IX.

In case anyone suspects that Funean is exaggerating when she speaks of transfolks being among the worst treated persons around in our society, consider the story of "Jack" on YouTube. Heartwrenching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0NaR3jz5Zc&list=UUFD9_xNjUYYRxIMBpPtF0og&index=1&feature=plcp

I don't think it would matter if Colleen was a "real" transgendered person or not, the same reaction would have occurred. And I'm still not sure there is any conclusive evidence that she is not "real".

There is a trans-woman who I see on the train sometimes on my ride to/from Boston and I've seen people spit on her and harass her. Not sure why some people have so much hate and I find it hard to believe that someone would "fake" something like this and willingly deal with all this hate when they don't have to.

[ November 12, 2012, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Pete at Home
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"I don't think it would matter if Colleen was a "real" transgendered person or not, the same reaction would have occurred."

That's possible. But if she'd been on medical e shots, rather than taking estrogen recreationally, she'd have looked more female. And if she'd bothered to wear shorts over the swim suit, she might have avoided the package threat. Real transwomen would try to pass for female, rather than sporting the difference.

"There is a trans-woman who I see on the train sometimes on my ride to/from Boston and I've seen people spit on her and harass her. Not sure why some people have so much hate."

Hopefully more people will feel as you do, and perhaps stand up for her.

Amusing anecdote: I stood up for a gay guy in a bar squabble once, and then was horrified to find out that the fight had broken out not because he was gay, but because he'd grabbed some hetero guy by the crotch. [Frown] Die and learn.

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PegLeg
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
But if she'd been on medical e shots, rather than taking estrogen recreationally, she'd have looked more female.


I just want to clarify something I said earlier about Colleen - that she takes a low dose of estrogen via patch (which is what she had written)

I did not mean for that to imply patches are not effective, because they are. Patches, gel, pills are all effective and are common ways that E is prescribed to male to female transsexuals. Injections are not as popular as they used to be.

So her being on the patch instead of injection really is not a factor so much as that she said she was on a low dose.

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Pete at Home
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I'm curious how the stats add up. If there are a greater m>Fs using patch estrogen but more F>Ms using injected testosterone, I'd interpret that as a greater number of fetishistic males who fit the profile that Funean described above.
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starLisa
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Link.

quote:
she says that binary gender (boy OR girl) is “bull****,”
quote:
This does mean that Colleen still has a penis and as she says, “I use my c--k cuz I have one.”
Look... she may actually be trans. But that doesn't justify her behavior. I worked at a women's college while I was transitioning, and I used the women's bathroom. But I would never have done so had I been as unpassable as Colleen.

It sucks. Some people are trans, but their physical appearance is such that passing is really, really hard. But Colleen seems to have no self-consciousness whatsoever, and apparently thinks that everyone should get the hell out of the way for her.

There are people who are antagonistic towards transwomen because transwomen grow up socially and socialized as males. And they have a sense of male privilege ingrained in them. And that criticism is true, to differing degrees. Colleen has it in a big way. And she needs to work on that.

Btw, about patches. YMMV, but they don't stay flush to your skin all that well. I thought they sucked, and went back to pills.

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PegLeg
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I'm curious how the stats add up. If there are a greater m>Fs using patch estrogen but more F>Ms using injected testosterone, I'd interpret that as a greater number of fetishistic males who fit the profile that Funean described above.

It does not mean anything.

For FTM testosterone usually is injection, I am not sure if they do it any other way.

For MTF I don't know what the stats are overall but my doctor told me she see's about 40 MTF patients and only two on injections, one of them is me and she only keeps giving injection prescription because I was already doing it on my own before I started seeing her. The prescription is hard to fill from most pharmacies to, at least around where I live, so I have to get it through the mail from out of state.

In Canada, and I think UK, they do not allow E injections for MtF at all.

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Pete at Home
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"For MTF I don't know what the stats are overall but my doctor told me she see's about 40 MTF patients and only two on injections, one of them is me and she only keeps giving injection prescription because I was already doing it on my own before I started seeing her."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but from what you've described, I get the impression that you're more committed to the change than Colleen, who (if I understand Funean correctly) announced on Facebook that she used patches irregularly and because estrogen "makes me horny."

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"For MTF I don't know what the stats are overall but my doctor told me she see's about 40 MTF patients and only two on injections, one of them is me and she only keeps giving injection prescription because I was already doing it on my own before I started seeing her."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but from what you've described, I get the impression that you're more committed to the change than Colleen, who (if I understand Funean correctly) announced on Facebook that she used patches irregularly and because estrogen "makes me horny."

I had read that it was on an OkCupid dating profile, saw nothing about facebook. I also think it is unfair to read too much into how much estrogen is used or the method of its delivery. It is known to have a lot of potentially high risk side effects and although I have no idea what goes through people's heads because I'm happy being a man, I imagine if I did want to be a woman, I would still be very concerned about side effects.

I don't think any of us has a good way of knowing the "truth" here without being privy to inside information, so speculation about motivations or intentions are all just that, speculation.

This individual may in fact be a narcissistic a-hole, or maybe the coverage and religious crazies on the internet have just made it look that way. I don't feel confident making the call on that either way based on the limited info I've found, but for sure there was no assault and no laws were violated as far as I can see.

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Pete at Home
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I don't think anyone here is calling for Colleen to be arrested, Linux. The problem is Colleen's complaint and the loss of Title IX funds.
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PegLeg
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“Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but from what you've described, I get the impression that you're more committed to the change than Colleen, who (if I understand Funean correctly) announced on Facebook that she used patches irregularly and because estrogen "makes me horny.”


When I pointed out earlier that Colleen was on a patch rather than shots it seemed to give you the impression that if someone is not on the shots they are not as serious or not really trans. Which is not true. If someone is using a patch or pill or gel it does not mean they are less trans, may be more likely to be fetishistic, or not as serious as someone taking a shot. That is all I was trying to say, but have not done it very well. I don’t write my thoughts very clearly.

[ November 13, 2012, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: PegLeg ]

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Pete at Home
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Thank you for clarifying. Obviously, you and Lisa are closest to the issues here, so I'm particularly interested in what both of you have to say.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
I'm actually more annoyed by the way this kind of stuff smears and confuses things for the genuinely inter- and trans- people out there. He's pretty much a fetishist and he comes across as as sexually aggressive freak, which doesn't help real transfolks, who are about the worst treated people around.
It's interesting how a choice of words can change our perceptions so dramatically. You characterize this gentleman as a "fetishist" so all sympathy is lost and we feel comfortable casting him out as a freak or a monster. Yet if he is called "trans" instead, polite society requires us to show care and sympathy. In point of fact, the "harm", to the extent one exists, does not change in the slightest from "trans" to "fetishist". From the point of view of the people being harmed, nothing at all has changed. They still see a man in the woman's sauna with a penis.

To be biologically a man, and yet to be convinced one is a woman (or vice versa) seem to me to be a straight up delusion. If a man believes himself to be Adolf Hitler, are we in society required to refer to him as "Mein Fuher"?

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seekingprometheus
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Funean:
quote:
(I'm actually exercising quite a bit of restraint when it comes to the potential puns here...)
Shame on you. Why would you take all the pun out of the discussion?

[Smile]

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