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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Connecticut mass killings -- OF CHILDREN! (Page 39)

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Author Topic: Connecticut mass killings -- OF CHILDREN!
noel c.
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"Is this because you assume that anti-firearm interests must be placated by offering up restrictions, even if they don't work?"...

Not at all. If it is not already clear, I am very pro-gun ownership. I am also extremely concerned about the stability/training of some people that end up in posession of them.

"This reminds me of all the gun buybacks going on right now everywhere."...

I think gun buy-backs are as idiotic as the "cash for clunkers" auto buy-back that the Obama administration tried, but fail to see a comparison with screening for mental health, and training. Can you be more specific?

[ January 28, 2013, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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D.W.
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Apparently the NRA isn't doing it's job well enough if it meant to keep doctors from asking about firearms.

Is there a gun in your home? was on the questionair they had which included medical history and health habits. As well as some other questions to ferret out abuse in the home.

Since it was mentioned in this thread earlier figured I'd share.

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noel c.
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"Is there a gun in your home? was on the questionair they had which included medical history and health habits. As well as some other questions to ferret out abuse in the home."...

Our pediatrician gave me the same drill, and I simply asked what his gun qualifications were... he shut right up. The AMA can do whatever it wants with its members, and so can the NRA.

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D.W.
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"The AMA can do whatever it wants with its members"
Most likely selling their info to the insurance companies. My apologies to those in my network plan for the premium bump blamed on me and my "yes" answer.

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Seneca
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We had a recent problem with a town that tried to illegally ban guns from city parks. This came a couple years after Seattle tried to do the same thing and failed, but fought all the way to the state Supreme Court and cost the state millions in pointless legal fees (all the while the mayor of Seattle and the city council are pleading poverty and claim they need higher taxes).

So, a city called Oak Harbor voted last year to ban guns in city parks. This was illegal as state law has a preemption clause that forbids smaller municipalities from creating more restrictive firearms laws than the state. Before preemption WA was a nightmare patchwork of Greek-like city-states where you could literally be arrested for driving between towns depending on different firearm statutes. Preemption solved all that mess however some intransigent cities have attempted to violate it.

After the Seattle ban was struck down by the state Supreme Court, Bellingham, Lakewood and a few other towns flirted with bad ordinances until their city attorneys advised them that if they did so in contradiction to the city attorney's counsel, that they could lose their municipal insurance and under state law any city without insurance is forced to unincorporate. This is what is happening to a place in the state called "Pacific," for different reasons.

Fast forward to late last year, the city of Oak Harbor on Whidbey Island put in place the illegal ordinance despite warnings from the Mayor and the city attorney.

Since then concerned citizens have been showing up at city council meetings, including many open carriers. A few of the anti-freedom councilmembers even tried to pass illegal motions to force these people to disarm or leave the meeting, and when they failed the councilmembers left.

Finally, last night, several hundred concerned citizens converged on this city's regular council meeting and over a 42 minute comment period told the city what they thought of their actions. The city's response was to pass an emergency ordinance to repeal their illegal law and come into compliance with state law.

Here is a story about it.

Public Comment period.

I recommend watching the first few minutes of the public comment period, there were some very good remarks about how some of the council members were violating their oaths as well as good comments about how gun free zones do not keep people safe. This is democracy in action, I was there and I can tell you it was a great night.

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Funean
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quote:
Most likely selling their info to the insurance companies. My apologies to those in my network plan for the premium bump blamed on me and my "yes" answer.
I do have to address this as utterly untrue, illegal, and a scurrilous allegation. There are several questions that can be part of medical history and risk-to-health assessment that do not appear to be immediately medical. The gun question (also the pool question and the pit bull question) is common to pediatric practices, though the midwifery practice where I work also includes it because there is an imminent pediatric client and more immediately pregnant women are at somewhat greater risk for domestic violence. Such data is the practitioner's prerogative and is not mandated by anyone or any regulation. It is completely PHI (protected health information) as is anything else in a patient's medical record. Insurance companies are not given anything beyond the information needed to secure reimbursement for services, which is (other than name/policy number info) diagnosis (or preventative care) and whatever specific procedures and services have been rendered attendant to that diagnosis. While you do sign away a good deal of privacy in exchange for having another entity pay your health care costs on your behalf, those payers don't have unlimited right or access to that information, and the health care provider's responsibility is directly to you, the patient--providers are perhaps the most tightly regulated and constrained holders of your health data.
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D.W.
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I know how it is supposed to work. I'm sure my privacy will not be violated beyond what someone else deems reasonable. [Smile]

And if it is? Well I'm sure that lone employee responsible will be sufficiently reprimanded.

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TomDavidson
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Do you know how actuarial tables are computed? It's not really a "lone employee" sort of thing.
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D.W.
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Ya don't say? Hmm
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cherrypoptart
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So the medical people and the insurance people will keep all of your information absolutely private?

What if you don't want them to know either? How is it private then?

And guess what happens if you don't divulge your private information and they catch you later? You aren't covered anymore and you'll be lucky if you can get back your premiums.

Obamacare is a massive invasion of privacy because it makes it against the law to not have health insurance and to get health insurance you must give up personal information you may want to reveal to absolutely no one such as whether or not you have a gun. Why would you want anyone to know that?

At least people should have the option to have individual health savings accounts instead.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
So the medical people and the insurance people will keep all of your information absolutely private?
I literally just started working for a major national health insurance company last week, as their head DBA. (I loved the college, but I decided that I was shortchanging my kids by not taking the substantial increase in pay.) And by far one of the most elaborately regulated parts of my job concerns the ways that medical treatment/condition information is very carefully restricted and kept from the insurance part of the house. There are certain things that an insurance company is allowed to know about someone's medical history; if there is any sign that they know anything else, the potential liability is enormous. So while I can't speak for any other insurance company, I can say that one of my duties involves using the full extent of my knowledge of database architecture to prevent the wrongful release of information to inappropriate people.
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Grant
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It's true that the insurance companies and hospitals are very very serious about HIPPA. That's because they can be either sued or fined for breaching it.
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cherrypoptart
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It's hard to take assurances of privacy regarding gun ownership seriously when a newspaper recently published the names of all the registered gun owners in their area along with their addresses and phone numbers.

The only way to keep something secret which you don't want people to know about is not to tell anyone. And there is no good reason why you should want to tell anyone that you have a gun, not your insurance company, not your doctor, and not the government. That newspaper demonstrated one very good reason why.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
It's hard to take assurances of privacy regarding gun ownership seriously when a newspaper recently published the names of all the registered gun owners in their area along with their addresses and phone numbers.

Journalists are like spies. They just arn't paid by governments. They're paid by advertisers and subscribers. As any spy will tell you, there are very few secrets that can stay secret if you are trying to find them out.

Now, if the newspaper did something illegal then I hope they are properly sued. If they did not break any laws, I don't see how the privacy of gun ownership even exists.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
And there is no good reason why you should want to tell anyone that you have a gun, not your insurance company, not your doctor, and not the government.

Deterence.

"The whole point of a doomsday wepon iz lost if you keep it a sekret. Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"

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cherrypoptart
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Then you lose the element of surprise. In a gun fight sometimes the first shot is the last shot.

Privacy of gun ownership didn't exist for those people but the laws are different in Texas and I expect more places will take a harder look at their laws about letting everyone else know your private business.

Of course, Obama can use his Obamacare as a way to get to that information through insurance companies and there is no reason to trust that it will be secure or that it won't be purposefully used by the government to harrass gun owners such as was allowed to happen with this newspaper or to eventually confiscate guns or many types of them altogether. I understand the effort to assuage people of their concerns in this regard, but the record speaks for itself.

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Funean
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*sigh*
there's no requirement to answer all the questions on your doctor's office form, you know. For heaven's sake, it's an effort to gauge risk to one's patients. That's it. It doesn't go anywhere, even without HIPAA regulations. You don't have to tell your doctor your past medical history, either. (Nor is it "illegal" to not have insurance--but I'm not interested in paying for you when you show up at the emergency room for your routine care, either. I agree that demonstrated ability to pay for your own care, whether it be in the form of a policy, HSA, or big honking pile of wealth, should exempt you from the "we have to pay for you since you won't" tax. Too bad there wasn't more good faith cooperation on the bill, which I believe I went on record as hating. But anyway.)

Honestly, if the govmint were as good at all the conspiracy attributed to it quite a lot of things would be run more competently.

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D.W.
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I made no accusations towards the government. I accused the insurance companies of using an excuse to raise rates. Something which doesn't seem far fetched to me. And I accused medical offices of releasing data (not even paired to my identity) to those insurance companies, who pay them.

I trust my government quite a bit. I trust private industry to do what is in it's best interest. Which is taking my money and if possible taking more and blaming me for it so I don't raise a fuss.

Also, nice one Grant. [Smile] I still don't want to be on a list of gun owners or CPL holders but that was funny.

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