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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » G3 makes this board less boring. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: G3 makes this board less boring.
Funean
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I'm just sticking my head in to say that what would make the board less boring would be the return of all the people who used to post here but who got sick of people like G3 making comments that appear to have no purpose other than to mock or wound, even when those comments seem to be strictly 'legal.' It's just no fun to talk to people who pass up opportunities for genuine civil debate in favor of sarcasm and and scoring 'zingers' off others. That got old back in junior high.

I'd like to see Flydye, KL, Dagonee, Redskull, Ops, Paladine, canadian, cperry, OceanRunner, Kent, the Drake, RickyB, msquared and a hundred others back before we get to G3. Those people brought something genuine to the board, not just gleeful nastiness.

[ February 04, 2013, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Funean ]

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noel c.
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- [G3, 02/01/13]; "When you say "completely wrong claims" do you mean something like the cure for cancer and EVERY major chronic disease ...oh, and vericose veins too?" (in the "What Is Ornery For?" thread)...

This seems more along the lines of "returning in kind", and at the risk of being insensitive; where large claims are made, commensurate proof is required. I would argue that G3's rejoinder exhibited restraint, under the circumstances. While I have not engaged LR in quite that way, he did not need any similar provocation to call me the "biggest liar" at Ornery some time ago.

D Pace,

"While I don't find this comment necessarily over the line... "...

That should be the end of discussion. There are few things more off-putting than a grown adult tattling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H21_mkimkM

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noel c.
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Funean,

- "I'd like to see Flydye, KL, Dagonee, Redskull, Ops, Paladine, canadian, cperry, OceanRunner, Kent, the Drake, RickyB, msquared and a hundred others back before we get to G3. Those people brought something genuine to the board, not just gleeful nastiness."...

It is not an either/or proposition.

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Funean
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Actually, I'm pretty sure it is. I won't post in the current climate, and I doubt I'm the only one who eschews it.
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noel c.
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Assuming that you are right, how would you go about expelling offending members?

BTW, hello Funean. [Smile]

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Funean
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I am in favor of shunning. I have always said that the day heavyhanded moderation becomes necessary, Ornery will have ceased to be Ornery. That day may be here; hopefully not. It is possible to reach a tipping point here as with anything else, if the problem has become so endemic that you end up with a board filled with jerks because the sensible folks have gone dark. And it's one thing to ignore a troll, but it still negatively impacts the enjoyment one can take in a thread when said troll is constantly interrupting the grownups, demanding attention and validation. An 'ignore' feature such that you couldn't such posts would be wonderous, but AFAIK this SW doesn't support it.
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Grant
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The more things change the more they stay the same.

I get banished to a production platform without internet access for three months, I come back, and two of the top three threads have the G-Man's name in the subject title, and the third was started by him.

I guess I missed all the high-brow conversation.

BTW, Funean, don't think I didn't notice that you did not put my name into your list of regretfully departed. Hmphf.

PPS: I never got the impression that Paladine, Redskull, Drake, or Ricky began to frequent the forum less due to anything that the G-Jester did. I could be wrong though. Can't speak for them.

PPPS: I work really hard to bring gleeful nastiness to this board. You think this is easy? Try un-gleeful nastiness. That's like Sue Sylvester without the Cheer-e-ohs.

PPPPS: Two solutions to inclimate weather...
1) Buy some inclimate weather gear
2) Stay home

Only one solution leads to you missing the Mardi Gras Parade.

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Funean
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You're not gone, manifestly. [Wink]
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JoshuaD
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Funean: Come back, we miss you. It's alright talking politics with you on facebook, but it doesn't feel the same without this lowkey color scheme.

[ February 04, 2013, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: JoshuaD ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is. I won't post in the current climate, and I doubt I'm the only one who eschews it.

Funny but I remember this board being more active when we had a mod who would let G3 get away with murder. The current climate is pretty reserved compared to a couple of years ago.
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Bud Martin
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Well, I'm new here and don't know anything about this G-3 situation, but I joined Ornery to have some lively discussions and if G-3 does come back, I'll look forward to reading some of those tête-à-tête battles.

I try to be as polite as the next guy, but I don't see the harm when a participant in the debate gets a little Ornery, it just shows he's passionate and has strong convictions!

The place where I draw the line… is if it gets too personal; and that's not just in the mind of the beholder, but should be the decision of the moderator. Hopefully, he will consult others before rendering any punishment to balance out his own personal emotions on the issue.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Bud Martin:
Well, I'm new here and don't know anything about this G-3 situation, but I joined Ornery to have some lively discussions and if G-3 does come back, I'll look forward to reading some of those tête-à-tête battles.

Battles with G-Man are not really tete-a-tete, it's more like tete-a-cul. Actually, it's a stretch calling it a battle. Imagine Spider-Man fighting "glue-man". Every time he throws a punch he just gets more stuck in it.
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AI Wessex
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"Actually, I'm pretty sure it is. I won't post in the current climate, and I doubt I'm the only one who eschews it."

I made my decision to withdraw because of a couple of posters, G3 being one - not because Ornery can't be a place for good discussion occasionally. The new Mod is a good thing, but the fawning appreciation people like Noel show toward G3's impolitic and uncivil manner will keep me away. Would you really want someone like G3 in the Card's living room? I thought that was what Ornery (for "ordinary", not "ornery") was all about.

I understand why the Mod did what s/he did, but we are all diminished by sharing the stage with him and having to confront his deceits of commission and omission, all delivered with the swagger of a bully. If he's your icon for open-mindedness and free speech, then why aren't many others we shunned and shamed and who went away because they couldn't get their rocks off after a while? Why kick people like JR (?) off for being a skinhead if our doors are open to people we wouldn't necessarily invite over for dinner? Funean's list was brutally short; there are dozens and dozens of others who have drifted away. When they start to come back I will reconsider lurking on occasion for participating with my preferred prior vigor and curiosity.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by D Pace:
quote:
G3
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- posted February 01, 2013 02:20 PM Profile for G3 Email G3

When you say "completely wrong claims" do you mean something like the cure for cancer and EVERY major chronic disease ...oh, and vericose veins too?

(in the "What Is Ornery For?" thread)

After my first post up above I had moseyed around and saw what I figured must be the inciting incident. (It's followed shortly by a message from the mod to G3 to check his email).

The comment was to Letterip, and LR didn't seem bothered, but it was odd to me. I'd noticed and actually posted about Gx a long time ago, that Gx took the opportunity to use what little personal "real" knowledge of people posting here was available and tailor insults directed to that actual knowledge.

While I don't find this comment necessarily over the line, given the history of Gx I could see the mod having a rational problem with Gx making a statement precisely calculated to be hurtful to a particular real board member.

So anyway, given that, I retract my statement that there was no specific incident that seemed to be a problem.

I missed that one. I hope that LR missed it too, since I and mostthe of us appreciate him. Had.such a swipe been cited as cause for banning, (rather than what wayward seemed to characterize as failure to grovel on command) I think there would have been fewer objections to a ban.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
the fawning appreciation people like Noel show toward G3's impolitic and uncivil manner will keep me away.
You've been staying away? Then somebody else has been using your handle.

G# has barely been here for months. When he was here he was being about as polite as he seems to be capable of. While I find his intellectual dishonesty beyond frustrating that's hardly grounds for a ban. And sorry but if someone throws an ad hominem at him I can't fault him too much for throwing one back.

And again I'm not buying this idea that people are staying off this board because it's gotten too mean here. It's way more civil here than it used to be.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It's way more civil here than it used to be.
It's way quieter. I wouldn't say it's particularly more civil.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It's way more civil here than it used to be.
It's way quieter. I wouldn't say it's particularly more civil.
I would.

People here are remembering the past with rose-colored glasses.

[ February 05, 2013, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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Funean, If a comment that has no purpose other than to offend or hurt, is not already against the rules, then it should be. (I think that is already covered by the rules, though.)I

Agreed on missing members. Redskull went AWOL when some noob was calling him horrible names and only 1this person stood up for him. The noob is gone but so is Red.

I posted a bit on Ricky's blog but some if the regulars were dorks. We ought to bug him on his blog to come back to where people listen before the reply.

Funean's statement on shunning is something to be considered. G3 Would not be so disruptive it were not for so many of the posts of others directed at him or about him.

[ February 05, 2013, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It's way more civil here than it used to be.
It's way quieter. I wouldn't say it's particularly more civil.
I would.

People here are remembering the past with rose-colored glasses.

Absolutely. And Ornery always did that.

Major topics of conversation on ordinary have always been, How things used to be better, Who's to blame, And throwing him in the pit. But between thos regular conversatios, we have other really fun ones

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Wayward Son
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quote:
...rather than what wayward seemed to characterize as failure to grovel on command...
Interesting phrase, "failure to grovel on command." Not one that I used! [Smile]

I don't think I've ever wanted G3 to "grovel on command." But thinking about it, that is what I feel he wants me to do. Which may explain why I sometimes react so strongly to him.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
"So in what way is he anomolous?"... [Confused]
You have to admit, noel, no one makes as much of a ruckus as G3. So there has to be something different about him, aka "anomolous."
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G3
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I'm not going to address most of what's been said but I would like to address this one:
quote:
Originally posted by D Pace:
quote:
G3
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- posted February 01, 2013 02:20 PM Profile for G3 Email G3

When you say "completely wrong claims" do you mean something like the cure for cancer and EVERY major chronic disease ...oh, and vericose veins too?

(in the "What Is Ornery For?" thread)

After my first post up above I had moseyed around and saw what I figured must be the inciting incident. (It's followed shortly by a message from the mod to G3 to check his email).

The comment was to Letterip, and LR didn't seem bothered, but it was odd to me. I'd noticed and actually posted about Gx a long time ago, that Gx took the opportunity to use what little personal "real" knowledge of people posting here was available and tailor insults directed to that actual knowledge.

While I don't find this comment necessarily over the line, given the history of Gx I could see the mod having a rational problem with Gx making a statement precisely calculated to be hurtful to a particular real board member.

So anyway, given that, I retract my statement that there was no specific incident that seemed to be a problem.

Let's build the context and look at what I was responding to vs just taking it out like I had suddenly decided to take some kind of mean spirited shot. LetterRip, said, "...you increase the noise part (pointless partisanship, dubious or completely wrong claims) which most of us dislike."

With that in mind, I was making the point that he's hardly in a position to claim the moral authority to make the accusation of "dubious or completely wrong claims". I did provide a example because I felt the accusation of "dubious or completely wrong claims" is so close to the accusation of lying and there was already prior mention by the moderator that such a accusation required evidence (I mostly copied and pasted LR's text for my post). LR did not seem bothered because, presumably, he kept this exchange in context rather that picking it out of context and using it to infer some malicious intent rather than just what is little more than saying "that's like the pot calling the kettle black". Do a search on the forum for that phrase ...

Furthermore, look upthread from my post (sorry about throwing you under the bus D.W.). D.W. said, "I'm here to get the inside track on the cure for cancer." This was made just a few posts after LetterRip and is rather openly ridiculing the whole claim of curing all disease. Certainly I did nothing more hurtful than some of the things said in that "Bragging time..." thread and what I said is substantively identical to others posts, for example:

quote:
Why should we believe this one,when you have a history of making claims of this nature that don't pan out?
Not to mention all the implied questions of his mental state. So is the claim now being made that some people can address this, even ridicule it, and I can't?

So at the worst, I have done nothing that hasn't already been done before and is considered a non-issue by everyone (at least, as long as it's someone else doing it) and actually done nothing that violated forum rules or, within context, should even be considered problematic.

[ February 05, 2013, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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D.W.
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quote:
sorry about throwing you under the bus D.W.
Internet busses hit with little force and are filled with harmless children. I'm certian I'll be ok.

I will say that I am honestly curious as to what LR will release to us when he's ready. I'm not a fan of a tease however so I got no problem jabbing him now and then.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
G3
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posted 01-31-2013 03:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Been back 3 days. 8 active threads today, 14 active in the last 2. More to come.

You're welcome.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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LetterRip
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posted 02-01-2013 03:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G3,

unfortunately instead of increasing the signal part of conversation (interesting ideas and arguments), that everyone wants; you increase the noise part (pointless partisanship, dubious or completely wrong claims) which most of us dislike.


G3 Looking at this thread it looked to me like LR had deliberately provoked you here. If you were brought back on some sort of probation that meant you couldn't make any personal remarks but others were free to personally trash you that hardly seems fair.

At least as far as I can see, he threw the first punch this time.

[ February 05, 2013, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
So at the worst, I have done nothing that hasn't already been done before and is considered a non-issue by everyone...
Gx, I'm genuinely curious: if you believe this, why do you think you -- and you specifically -- are such a problem?
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Mynnion
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G3-I am fairly quiet but I was recently offended by your specific attack on KE's research. You have a right to disbelieve but your comments were totally out of line and a personal attack. I would provide them but can't remember the specific thread. I think the moderator called you on it.

Other than that you do tend to liven things up.

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D Pace
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G3 I absolutely agree(d) with your assessment of the situation. I thought your comment was talking directly to LR of things he'd actually said, and LR took it head on and seemed to accept that.


My quoted post was to say that I believe that I could understand the mod feeling that you zeroing in on somebody like that was crossing a line he'd set for you. So whether or not I agree, I didn't see it as a circumstance where the mod was being completely capricious.

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Viking_Longship
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I had to look up the bragging time thread to get up to speed here. I was unaware of LR's claims regarding his medical breakthrough.

Now having said that I still think G3's remarks are not unreasonable since he wasn't doing anything but crowing about getting a bunch of threads moving again and LR decided to go after him personally.

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D.W.
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quote:
have a right to disbelieve but your comments were totally out of line and a personal attack.
So why didn't my crack earn a rebuke? Why didn't many of the other comments here earn a scolding?

If the community wants referees to enforce the rules, protecting us from each other, then at least keep the rules the same for all. This is getting beyond silly.

Also congrats G3 on moving beyond tribute threads to a full fledged petition for your continued presence. Our apparent king in intermittent exile.

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Pete at Home
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Setting aside the moral issue of needing an actual offense to kick someone out, if it were simply a practical question of is it worth it to kick G3 out in order to get Funean back, I'd say hell yes. But I don't think that provocation is an issue that we should set aside for expedience's sake.

Perhaps G3 could upgrade to G4.

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LetterRip
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Viking_Longship,

I'm curious why you consider it a provacation. Do you think my statement was false about the nature of his thread participation? I was merely pointing out that he seemed to think he was providing a benefit that I feel he wasn't.

G3,

quote:
I did provide a example because I felt the accusation of "dubious or completely wrong claims" is so close to the accusation of lying.
I don't think you are someone prone to lying, but you seem to judges sources not by their relability, but by whether or not you like the message they are saying - ie if it says something unflattering about Obama, liberals, or 'liberal causes' (global warming in particular) or if it says something flattering about the wealthy; conservatives; etc.. then the source gains instant credibility with you; Also you seem to ignore or dismiss anything contradicting a source you've found no matter how outlandish the claim.

You also tend to take the least charitable view of actions or statements anything someone you consider liberal says or does; and give extremely charitable interpretations to the 'conservative' side.

You aren't unique in such actions, but you definitely the most prolific in such behaviour.

Also, I didn't think your response was a personal attack or whatever, as you said - seemed you were trying to do a 'pot calling the kettle black'.

Regarding my claims, things are coming along nicely. I think, search, and read far faster than I write, and thus I make refinements to my theory fairly quickly, but then it takes awhile for my writing to catch up.

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Funean
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Aw, Pete. That's sweet. [Smile]

To be fair, and kinder, it is not any one person to blame for what I have found unpleasant about Ornery the last couple of years, although there are a few individuals, and combinations of indviduals, whose posts I find so unpalatable as a general rule that I avoid reading when I think I will encounter them. I do still read, but I skim and if I see suspect posts or threads deteriorating along familiar lines, I don't bother reading them. And I don't have the patience or the time anymore for the work required to get past the distortions, red herrings, strawmen, ad hominems, and wit at the expense of others that have become much more common fare than I remember them being. Certainly there are still good threads and people who make a concerted effort to be civil, keep conversations about ideas, and treat the opinions and arguments of their fellows with respect, but there are many fewer than there used to be, and the poisonous threads and posts have a chilling effect on everyone. As Caddyshack taught us, it only takes one turd to empty an entire pool.

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Greg Davidson
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It's less the insults and invective that have pushed me away (although those are useless, I do not personally find them to be the most damaging thing). But if there is an unwillingness for each of us to take accountability for the truth of what we write, then what's the purpose of engaging in dialog? That violates the basic social contract of any forum that I would want to spend much time on.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I'm curious why you consider it a provacation. Do you think my statement was false about the nature of his thread participation? I was merely pointing out that he seemed to think he was providing a benefit that I feel he wasn't.

Something doesn't have to be false to be a provocation. G3 was patting himself on the back for getting a bunch of threads moving again, not attacking you, or anybody else for that matter.

I wouldn't call for your censure either. I just don't think he deserved to be kicked out when he didn't start it and in my opinion didn't say anything worse to you than you said to him.

[ February 07, 2013, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
I was merely pointing out that he seemed to think he was providing a benefit that I feel he wasn't.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. [Razz]

Maybe you think that but look at the forum activity while I was gone vs before and after. During those times, how many posts were there about how quiet it was? How many threads started to question the "steep decline of participation"? You may think it's a coincidence or try to find a way to tie it to the election but the indisputable fact is this forum is much more engaged and more vibrant with me here. Obviously there are others who provide some similar function here but in smaller ways - just look at the list of topic starters and think about who revives threads with new development.

I know the desire of many here is to infer I'm simply trying to pat myself on the back but that's *not* it. The reality is that every community in online media will have a very small percentage of people that are the drivers of content. Look at any online community, whatever its format and whatever its content focus, and you'll see this is true. This is a small community so there are likely at most only 2-3 people around here that will routinely provide a catalyst for engagement and, more often than not, just 1 one of them really active during a given time period.

Love me, hate me, love to hate me, whatever you like; you know you need me (and the other "catalysts"). Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man. [Razz]

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
... and the poisonous threads and posts have a chilling effect on everyone.

The irony of this is almost immeasurable.
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Viking_Longship
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G3 that looks like patting yourself on the back to me, but in this case it's not unjustified. You do appear to be valauble here as a gadfly whether people like it or not.
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G3
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Well it's not. I'm just making the point that there are people that become primary drivers in all social media formats. In this case, I happen to be one. How did it happen? I don't really know for sure. If I did, I'd be out making millions as a social media consultant or something. I think anyone here could become a catalyst for discussion and displace me, or at least dilute my impact, any time they want. For those that would like to see that happen, step up and make it happen. It's not just the best way to minimize my role here, it's the only way.

[ February 07, 2013, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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LetterRip
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Viking,

fair enough.

G3,

Your participation is similar in character and role to that of Rush Limbaugh. Frustrates and annoys or angers those who feel they are being unfairly portrayed, and drives them to complain or speak rebuttals, or respond in kind. And is cheered by those who are prone to agree with the characterizations. So you get a lot of vocalization and participation by those who are at the extremes (those who feel a need to respond, and those who want to cheer). However it drives away those who are interested in reasoned debate - the 'centrists'.

So it turns something that was fairly useful for debate, without much partisan rancor. To a place that is primarily about scoring points and encouraging partisan rancor.

The reason things 'get slow' when you dissappear is because, as Funean notes, you (and those cheer you on the 'right', and those who respond to you with rancor and outrage on the 'left') have driven most of those who are interested in genuine debate without pointless partisanship and rancor away from the forum.

Obviously I don't think that was your intent, but I do think it was the effect.

The problem is that they most likely won't return until after it is clear that the culture of the forum has shifted to return to support debating in good faith, without partisan rancor.

[ February 07, 2013, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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Viking_Longship
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G3 perhaps we mean different things by "pat yourself on the back."
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