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Author Topic: Emperor Palpatine resigns.
djquag1
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The last time a Pope resigned, Europe was all in a tizzy about some new fangled "Magna Carta" that the King of England had just signed.

So why resign now? Who knows. I'm sure that it has absolutely nothing to do with sexually abused children and a cover-up that involved the beloved Emperor.

I'm certain.


(It probably has something to do with diddled kids.)

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D.W.
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He couldn't stomach being the one to bring about my papal predictions regarding dire overpopulation, lack of resources, sexual habits & war...
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Wayward Son
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I'm sure it's because he wanted to see the Apocalypse as a spectator rather than a participant. [Smile]
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D.W.
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Not on my watch!

Oh look, it's quittin time...

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Funean
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Interestingly, doesn't this mean he gives up immunity from prosecution? I can only imagine he's very ill, then.
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DonaldD
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On the other hand, the Catholic Church is a multi billion dollar a year, international corporation with branch offices in just about every country in the world, whose CEO is required to be the public face of the company and must be seen to be making all the important decisions as well as chairing regular meetings, often including tens of thousands of participants.

I'm quite surprised that more popes haven't been responsible enough to retire once they became incapable of handling their duties. Also, what with advances in medicine over the last few decades, we would expect to be able to keep popes' bodies alive well past the point of them being mentally unfit for the job.

This is actually one of the first actions this pope has taken that I am impressed with. Hopefully, it sets a precedent.

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Viking_Longship
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I suspect he's in the early stages of dementia or alzheimers and did the responsible thing.

I would point out that it's pretty tacky to make fun of a visibly sick old man for retiring, but I know I'm just going to be told something along the lines of "he deserves it!".

[ February 12, 2013, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Paladine
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quote:
Interestingly, doesn't this mean he gives up immunity from prosecution? I can only imagine he's very ill, then.
I think that's about the furthest thing from his mind. Look for them to arrest him about the same time they arrest George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

quote:
I would point out that it's pretty tacky to make fun of a visibly sick old man for retiring, but I know I'm just going to be told something along the lines of "he deserves it!".
This is one of the things that really confuses and saddens me. Many of us call the Pope our Holy Father; we love, admire, and respect him. I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
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Pyrtolin
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It seemed that he was pretty old to begin with when he wasa appointed, which does make it seem like he may have been intentionally picked as a short term bridge while certain back end political elements were sorting themselves out.

It takes a lot of integrity to walk away from the kind of power he has, though. This definitely suggests a productive precedent, clearing the way for his sucessors to more freely step away when they feel like they don't have the energy or other capacities to do the job full justice.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
I don't understand why this is a "grave and sad thing." He is stepping down by his own volition, doing what he believes is best for the Church. I'm sure he would have preferred to work on, but he has judged his own abilities and realized he is no longer up to the job. It does take a brave and humble man to do so, and he deserves a lot of respect for it.

But I don't see this as anymore "grave" or "sad" than if anyone else decides he need to retire.

BTW, I meant no disrespect toward the Pope with my post above. I was actually trying to make fun of djquad1's contention that Benedict left because of the sexual abuse scandal, which has been going on for years. I was trying to come up with some bigger things he might have been worried about instead of that. [Wink]

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NobleHunter
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I think it also has to do with the stability and independence of the Church. Unlike most of the 600 years since the last retirement, Benedict can expect that future Popes won't have their retirement suggested to them by secular powers. Establishing the precedent early could have resulted in a number of Popes "deciding" their health wasn't up to ministering to an occupying force.

Also, it was easier to cover for an infirm Pope before modern communications.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Many of us call the Pope our Holy Father; we love, admire, and respect him. I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
America is so reflexively protestant it is difficult for many Americans to understand what the Pope is supposed to be. Honestly I don't think Catholicism in general makes a lot of sense to many Americans, even Catholics.

[ February 12, 2013, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Paladine
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Wayward, think of how a family feels when their father says that because of the deterioration of his physical and mental health that he can't be the head of the family anymore, and is going to rely upon his children. Absolutely we respect and admire his decision, but for people who love and admire him it's a sad thing also for a lot of reasons.
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D.W.
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VL pretty much nailed it for me. I was raised roman catholic and still equate the pope to a head of state. I tolorate and respect him as much as I do any leader of a powerful organization. Which amounts to slightly more than a stranger. Because reaching such an office certainly suggests impressive ambition and no small amount of talent.

Anyone above jest however is not one you respect. That is called fear.

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Paladine
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DW, jest is by its nature lighthearted and unserious; it's playful, not derogatory.
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D.W.
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Yep, that was the word I meant to use.
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JoshuaD
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quote:
So why resign now? Who knows. I'm sure that it has absolutely nothing to do with sexually abused children and a cover-up that involved the beloved Emperor.

I'm certain.


(It probably has something to do with diddled kids.)

This is jest? I don't see the joke.
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djquag1
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I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I'm poking fun is precisely because I don't respect religion or it's institutions.

I tolerate them because we all have to live together, but it's toleration in the same vein as given to those who think the Twilight series is this generation's Shakespeare.

Also, the man helped to provide cover for child molesters. So, there's that.

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JoshuaD
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You're not poking fun, then, you're sneering at someone you don't understand and disagree with. And you're not alone. My facebook feed is covered in people celebrating like this is some great event. I don't understand the mentality at all.
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djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaD:
quote:
So why resign now? Who knows. I'm sure that it has absolutely nothing to do with sexually abused children and a cover-up that involved the beloved Emperor.

I'm certain.


(It probably has something to do with diddled kids.)

This is jest? I don't see the joke.
I haven't really been paying much attention since the story first broke, because I don't really care who gets to wear the Fanciest Hat next. But at the time I hadn't heard any reports of illness. So I'm only halfway kidding when I suggest that an unignorable skeleton from the man's time as Bishop has decided to jump out of the closet.

ETA - And that the Vatican caught wind of it before the public did.

[ February 12, 2013, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaD:
You're not poking fun, then, you're sneering at someone you don't understand and disagree with. And you're not alone. My facebook feed is covered in people celebrating like this is some great event. I don't understand the mentality at all.

Well, sure. But I never claimed that all jokes are light hearted.
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D.W.
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And I only claim to know the motivations of my own. [Razz]

As to why some delight in this news? Large organizations = some amount of corruption or immorality. It's only worth note because this organization is founded on morality our the appearance of it. When a leader steps down in our society it is moist often in shame our impending defeat. When the "job" is for life that leaves shame. People expect the writers. The people are not often disappointed...

Be it health, shame or a selfless political sacrifice I find the resignation quite impressive. I've got no gripe with an old man in a far away land who I have no prof did anything t up deserve my derision.

[ February 12, 2013, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Funean
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My commnt was actually quite serious. Stepping down does almost certainly expose him to prosecution, or at least painful and time-consuming attempts at it, and so it is worth noting that he was either not advised against it, or attempts were made that were not successful. Or that he was forced out in some way, which I don't think credible given his age. Perhaps a better way to examine it is why have no popes in modern history made the same choice? Any number of them have become quite infirm during their last years, but did not feel it necessary or perhaps advisable to step down. Is it simply a matter of this being a more principled, hands-on pope? What is different here?
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noel c.
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- "Is it simply a matter of this being a more principled, hands-on pope? What is different here?"...

The difference between Germans, and Italians? [Smile]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
- "Is it simply a matter of this being a more principled, hands-on pope? What is different here?"...

The difference between Germans, and Italians? [Smile]

The one before him was Polish. [Razz]
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Any number of them have become quite infirm during their last years, but did not feel it necessary or perhaps advisable to step down. Is it simply a matter of this being a more principled, hands-on pope? What is different here?
Perhaps having seen the last years of his predecessor's time as Pope he decided not to continue in his role past the point he was able to be effective in it.
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djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Many of us call the Pope our Holy Father; we love, admire, and respect him. I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
America is so reflexively protestant it is difficult for many Americans to understand what the Pope is supposed to be. Honestly I don't think Catholicism in general makes a lot of sense to many Americans, even Catholics.
Honestly, this is one of my favorite aspects of the United States. The country as a whole has a rather charming immunity to the concept of a Beloved Leader.

Even the President, whoever he is, tends to have a third to a half of the country who views him as anything but.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
I'm sure it's because he wanted to see the Apocalypse as a spectator rather than a participant. [Smile]

That's the only joke on this thread that I find remotely funny.

I continue to admire the man once called ardinal Ratzinger, for helping to amend the Catechism to clarify that anare unbaptized child doesn't go to hell.

I don't think that those who single out Pope Benedict for condemnation re child sex abuse, have troubled themselves.
with the intellectual honesty to ask, how do other organizations both religious and secular, deal with such events? The worst I can say for Benedict was that he was a human being and part of an organization of human beings. If you think you know anything about society handles child sexual abuse, of BOYS, and you think that what Benedict purportedly did is surprising, then you are in denial.

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djquag1
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The fact that his organization, or his fellows in it, were ALSO acting in an evil manner in regards to sexual abuse, doesn't really excuse him in my eyes.

He was the top dog in Munich. Where do you think the buck should stop in regards to this particular subject?

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D.W.
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Pete I don't think it being surprising has anything to do with it. It's less to do about the man and more to do with the abuse scandal in an organization that exists to educate and instruct in matters of morality.

Any stubbed toe by any member will be rejoiced by many and seen as some sort of karmic justice. If you expect the deeds of someone most who scorn the church know nothing about it's someone else in denial.

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Paladine
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quote:
My commnt was actually quite serious. Stepping down does almost certainly expose him to prosecution, or at least painful and time-consuming attempts at it, and so it is worth noting that he was either not advised against it, or attempts were made that were not successful.
You think they're going to invade the Vatican and take him, or wait until he's in Italy and have the Italian police nab him and ship him off to the Hague or something? There's literally a better chance of them arresting President Bush.

quote:
Perhaps a better way to examine it is why have no popes in modern history made the same choice? Any number of them have become quite infirm during their last years, but did not feel it necessary or perhaps advisable to step down. Is it simply a matter of this being a more principled, hands-on pope? What is different here?
There are a few things to understand here. One is that this isn't someone who wanted to be Pope. He asked Pope John Paul II for permission to retire while JPII was still alive; he continued serving as Prefect because he was asked to, and as Pope for much the same reason. But his age and health have been an issue for him since before he was elected.

Many thought that John Paul II should have stepped aside well before he passed away. He felt called to do something else, though; he felt called to continue until his death, and maybe to give us a very public lesson on the dignity of age, suffering, and death. For the last few months of his life this was something that was very much talked about in the Church and outside of it.

Near the beginning of his pontificate, in light of the example set by his predecessor, Pope Benedict was asked if he would consider stepping aside should his health deteriorate. He said that he would consider doing so, and that he might even be obliged to depending upon the circumstances. Twice at earlier points in his pontificate, he visited the tomb of an obscure 13th century pope who had reigned for only a few months.

This struck many as unusual, but looking back it makes a lot of sense. The pope whose tomb he twice visited was elected when he was an old man, somewhat against his will. He then formally created the ability of a pope to resign his office, and proceeded to himself resign a short time later. This is something that's been on his mind and in his heart since before his election.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Many of us call the Pope our Holy Father; we love, admire, and respect him. I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
America is so reflexively protestant it is difficult for many Americans to understand what the Pope is supposed to be. Honestly I don't think Catholicism in general makes a lot of sense to many Americans, even Catholics.
Honestly, this is one of my favorite aspects of the United States. The country as a whole has a rather charming immunity to the concept of a Beloved Leader.

Even the President, whoever he is, tends to have a third to a half of the country who views him as anything but.

That's because most of us believe in our hearts that we're the infallable agent of God on Earth, even if we don't believe in God. All in all I'm not sure it's not such a wonderful trait (TYVM Calvin and Luther.)
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noel c.
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- "Many thought that John Paul II should have stepped aside well before he passed away. He felt called to do something else, though; he felt called to continue until his death, and maybe to give us a very public lesson on the dignity of age, suffering, and death. For the last few months of his life this was something that was very much talked about in the Church and outside of it."...

Paladine, I am one of the "outsiders" who took this lesson from John Paul II. Even as he laid on the bier the complete embrace of life, including suffering, was obvious in his burial preparation. There are things to be learned from a total life, made public.

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Funean
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That makes a lot of sense, Paladine--I hadn't known that he hadn't really wanted the pontificate, nor that he'd formally created a mechanism for stepping down.

I don't think the sarcasm about the exposure to potential prosecution is warranted or deserved, by the way. There are not a few people, particularly in Europe, looking for accountabiliity at higher levels than local administrators and individual priests. While I can't speculate on whether pressing charges on this particular cleric for anything that may have happened under his watch in appointments prior to becoming pope is appropriate legally, it's not necessary to sneer derisively at the question of whether those concerns played any role into the thinking surrounding the resignation.

[ February 13, 2013, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Funean ]

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Pyrtolin
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The timing struck me as odd- right in the middle of Lent, not leaving much time to get a replacement chosen in tie for Easter), until I heard the recording of him making the announcement. His voice definitely sounded like someone who is fading and adds some sense to the decision.

It seems a bit weird that the Cardinals have to wait to get started, though. Seems like with a clear date announced, they could get started now and have a successor lined up for a smooth transition.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Pete I don't think it being surprising has anything to do with it. It's less to do about the man and more to do with the abuse scandal in an organization that exists to educate and instruct in matters of morality.

Any stubbed toe by any member will be rejoiced by many and seen as some sort of karmic justice. If you expect the deeds of someone most who scorn the church know nothing about it's someone else in denial.

I didn't say that they know nothing about the Catholic church. ("The Church" to my mind does not reference Catholicism). I said that they know nothing about child sexual abuse and about how human communities respond to it. And if they do know, They still are singling out of Benedict, the they're being monstously hypocritical. Virtually any human organization will betray its most deeply professed principles in order to cover its ass. If you don't realize this, then grow up. Regardless of why in organization was founded its purpose for existing is to continue to exist. In my mind that is the problem with treating corporations and other entities as if they were legal human beings. An organization is incapable of conscience or repentance.

[ February 13, 2013, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Paladine
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quote:
That makes a lot of sense, Paladine--I hadn't known that he hadn't really wanted the pontificate, nor that he'd formally created a mechanism for stepping down.
He himself didn't; the 13th century predecessor whose tomb he twice visited did.

quote:
I don't think the sarcasm about the exposure to potential prosecution is warranted or deserved, by the way. There are not a few people, particularly in Europe, looking for accountabiliity at higher levels than local administrators and individual priests. While I can't speculate on whether pressing charges on this particular cleric for anything that may have happened under his watch in appointments prior to becoming pope is appropriate legally, it's not necessary to sneer derisively at the question of whether those concerns played any role into the thinking surrounding the resignation.
You're misreading my tone. I'm not sneering derisively; I'm honestly just shocked at how differently we view this. Maybe it's a cultural thing. The first thing you said in this thread was:

quote:
Interestingly, doesn't this mean he gives up immunity from prosecution? I can only imagine he's very ill, then.
As if fear of prosecution would be something that seriously weighs on his mind. The Pope and pretty much everyone around him consider him to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the successor of Saint Peter. It's the biggest and most awesome responsibility in the world, and he's going to be the first guy in about 600 years to leave the office before dying. He believes in and has devoted his life to the service of a God before whom he'll have all too soon to stand and give account for the very special and important responsibilities with which he's been entrusted. By setting those responsibilities aside, he's doing something of immense importance and consequence for the fate of a 1.2 billion member church and his own eternal soul, and you think fear of some EU prosecutor is even a thumb on the scale? This is just one of those things that must look VASTLY different to someone outside the Church than it does to someone in it.

I'm also astonished by how differently we're reading the political reality. Sure, there are some people who would like to prosecute him, just like there are people who would like to prosecute every major world leader for something or another. He's going to be spending his time in the Vatican, which is a sovereign country, or maybe a bit in Italy, which is 90% Catholic. There would literally be riots in the streets if anyone were to even *try* that, and any government that were to attempt it or permit it to happen would be out of power the second it did. I'm sure there's a prosecutor somewhere in Europe who thinks it'd be a good idea, but they're simply not going to march into the papal residence or into a monestary in the Vatican to arrest him. Again, I'm not sneering there, I'm just honestly amazed you think that's something in the realm of possibility.

[ February 13, 2013, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Paladine ]

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Pete at Home
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Funean, As long as it's the folks having aheard smug gloatmen fest about Pope Benedict say nothing about this, http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/15867.html, perhaps a little contempt is necessary. It seems that some regard covering of child molestation as a crime only when there's underlying political motivation for the moral posturing.
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D.W.
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Pete, your point is valid about how human communities respond to child sexual abuse. What I was pointing out is that an organization founded or centered around the teaching of morality to the larger community will be held to a much different standard. The community may accept the church as only human. They will expect the same failures and betrayals that afflict any organization. The difference is this is an organization who dares to instruct others in what is moral. ANY immoral behavior by the church hurts them far more than the same behavior in any other group.

You elect a president to lead a country. You appoint a general to win wars. You hire a CEO to make money. You appoint a religious leader to….? I’m not saying it’s fair to this man that he becomes the focal point to the controversy. I’m just saying that as the most notable person in this organization, anyone not seen as purging and punishing every shred and spec of corruption, who themselves has a squeaky clean background, will be the chew toy of many. I realized this some time in my growing up…

My upbringing if not my personal beliefs make me hope you are wrong about the church exists only to continue to exist. I like to believe despite their failings, and many opinions I consider narrow minded, they are on balance a force of good. If retention of power is at its core then the believers owe this pope a very large debt for the example of stepping away from that power for the good of others. Regardless of his motivations.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Paladine:

quote:
I would point out that it's pretty tacky to make fun of a visibly sick old man for retiring, but I know I'm just going to be told something along the lines of "he deserves it!".
This is one of the things that really confuses and saddens me. Many of us call the Pope our Holy Father; we love, admire, and respect him. I don't understand how so many who advocate for "tolerance" and "respecting others" can hear this news and react by jeering and mocking with complete indifference to the hundreds of millions of their neighbors for whom this is a grave and a sad thing.
Because he knowingly enabled the rape of children. For starters. There is nothing holy about that. There is nothing to love, admire, or respect about that.
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