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noel c.
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- " I thought the question was what we wanted. "...

The question of risk aversion? That tends to be a liberal paradigm. Conservatives more often choose liberty over security. I did not realize what your "government papers" reference meant until your clarification.

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D.W.
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My papers comment refers to the first amendment.

I think the threat of rape-baboons could be construed as "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

[ March 12, 2013, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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noel c.
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... How general an application of the first amendment?
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D.W.
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Two seperate concepts going on with what you are trying to lump togeather. I've now tried to clarify each of those unique ideas. One was a joke the other making a point.

[ March 12, 2013, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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noel c.
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Yes, You have clarified that you value government control, or disempowerment, to the degree that it serves your present, or potential, interests.

My second question was to see if first amendment guarantees were also subjectively applicable to serve individual preferences.

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D.W.
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quote:
Yes, You have clarified that you value government control, or disempowerment, to the degree that it serves your present, or potential, interests.
I’ve tried to illustrate that I TRY to value the preservation of choices or freedom to do as we find best. I on occasion, give up some of those freedom when I don’t see any harm in it. Also I attempted to acknowledge that this is likely a serious fault in my behavior because even when we don’t see how giving up those freedoms will negatively affect us they sometimes do. I am suspicious of ANY restrictions placed upon us. Also that I accept that some restrictions just come with the package of civilization. Poorly apparently.

quote:
My second question was to see if first amendment guarantees were also subjectively applicable to serve individual preferences.
Sorry, I don't follow the question.

[ March 12, 2013, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by simplybiological:
quote:
As difficult as it is for me to imagine that a woman would serve in (or be sent to) an area that presented an explicitly high risk of rape, your hypothetical implies she has weighed that risk against benefits, and accepted aggregate consequences as an acceptable exchange for giving up personal safety.
I take a break from looking at this thread, and now women are at fault for being raped if they go somewhere unsafe? Is that what I'm reading?

Edited to add: Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said fault given the semantic discussion, but this line of thinking is making me totally uncomfortable given that I was just reading articles about the defense strategy in the Steubenville rape trial.

I am not familiar with the Steubensville case; what I had in mind when I started this sub-thread (and I think we're ethically on the same page here) was the Mike Tyson "she knew what I was when she chose to go out with me" defense. [Mad]
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noel c.
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- "I am suspicious of ANY restrictions placed upon us. I accept that some restrictions just come with the package of civilization. Poorly apparently. "...

It is tempting to follow-up on this, but that belongs in another thread.

Fair enough.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
- "When a man volunteers to go fight a war, Doesn't he put himself at risk for a cause? "...

Yes.

- "I think that's the wrong way to conceive of things. "...

I think you need to think further. Acceptance of Christianity came with a non-specific disclaimer that it could cost you your life. Do you want that risk to simply go away?

Of course I want it to go away. Even Christ wanted to shrink from the bitter cup, and I'm no where near as brave as him. But since it doesn't seem to be going away, I'm grateful for the men and women who have and continue to put their lives and personal safety in danger in order to do good. LDS and Catholic missionaries and service workers. The Jewish dudes that went into the deep south in the 1970s to register black Americans to vote. The black kids that walked out into a burning Los Angeles to save Reginald Denny. I thank God for the courage of these people. And I suspect that you do too. So why are we arguing this point?

[ March 12, 2013, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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noel c.
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- "Of course I want it to go away. "...

There is only one way to do that, and neither of us would be happy with the solution.

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D.W.
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Can you elaborate noel c.? It seems you are reading something else entirely out of the exchange than I am.

"Do you want that risk to simply go away?" I read "that risk" to be the risk that it could cost you your life for no reason other than just being a Christian.

Are you asserting that this risk is important to or defining of the experience of being a Christian? I’m kinda lost on that one. I’m not sure if the nature and lapses of my religious upbringing that are the cause of my confusion or not.

[ March 12, 2013, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
- "Of course I want it to go away. "...

There is only one way to do that, and neither of us would be happy with the solution.

aye. but you asked what I want, and there's a difference between wanting and taking concerted action towards a goal.

DW, I believe that Noel refer to the LDS doctrine of agency and the mythology associated therewith. (To an educated person, "mythology" does not mean that something is not true). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency _LDS_Church

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D.W.
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Interesting link. That helps, a little.
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noel c.
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- "I believe that Noel refer to the LDS doctrine of agency and the mythology associated therewith. "...

No, nothing that abstract Pete, and in all probability D.W. learned it as part of his religious upbringing:

If religious principles cause incidental discomfort, change them to something more compliant with immediate consequence aversion. Ironically, it is "agency" that preserves the easy way out. [Wink]

... but only at a cost to individual character.

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D.W.
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I may have been told something similar but I didn't learn it...

I learned to admire those who made choices despite the hardship. I don't recall learning anything that made the hardship a prerequisite of the beliefs I was taught.

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noel c.
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- "I don't recall learning anything that made the hardship a prerequisite of the beliefs I was taught. "...

... Not a "prerequisite", but unavoidable.

- [Matthew 5: 10]; "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven... "

[ March 12, 2013, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: noel c. ]

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D.W.
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Do you read that to mean ONLY those who are persecuted for righteousness sake?

What if you couldn't find a persecutor?

Sorry, read too fast.

Is it folly to attempt to avoid it?

[ March 12, 2013, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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noel c.
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- "What if you couldn't find a persecutor? "...

If you are doing the right thing, no need. The "persecutor" will find you. The Beatitudes are a sequential description of perfected discipleship.

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Pete at Home
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Dw, i dont think Noel meant that persecution based on belief is unavoidable, but ratherdemands that persecutionyou follows righteous action. This isn't just a Christian belief. Judaism. The most intricate development of the doctrine was actually in the words of renown atheist Ayn Rand. Her essay on the death of Marilyn Monroe gives best description that I've ever seen for how evil focuses on its hatred of that which is good.

DISCLAIMER: My strong recommendation that everyone read Ms Rand's work should NOT be taken as an endorsement of her philosophy, especially not be taken, as a n assertion that Ms Rand would approve of me, my philosophy, or of listen specifically or Christianity generally. Quite sure that if we were to meet, that Ayn Rand would find me despicable, and that i would find her fascinating. I wish that I could be a fly on the wall when she meets God.

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simplybiological
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Pete-

quote:
I am not familiar with the Steubensville case; what I had in mind when I started this sub-thread (and I think we're ethically on the same page here) was the Mike Tyson "she knew what I was when she chose to go out with me" defense
That's a similar mindset to what is purportedly coming out of the defense in Ohio; in that case it's more of, 'If you go out drinking with a bunch of jocks, it's like... implied silent consent," or something.

The case is HORRIFYING. I mean, all rapes are horrifying, but this one is especially so because the kids filmed various parts of it, and are laughing, mocking the passed out girl, and tweeting about it. Anonymous found the video and leaked it, I highly suggest NOT watching it (but, if you want to, here it is on Jezebel <-- be advised, it's a very liberal/female-biased site). The details are just extra appalling because of the desensitization of the youth involved.

[ March 12, 2013, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: simplybiological ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by noel c.:
- "What if you couldn't find a persecutor? "...

If you are doing the right thing, no need. The "persecutor" will find you. The Beatitudes are a sequential description of perfected discipleship.

I agree with thea latter statement more wholeheartedly than the former.

I have on occasion been persecuted for doing the right thing. I've also sometimes been persecuted for being more intelligent. But if i am to be honest with myself I must admit that I have often been persecuted for being a jackass. Or


just for being different and failing to cover up my differences.

Where I disagree with Noel is in the implication living the Sermon on the Mount atracts persecution.

On the contrary, passages of the Sermon on the Mount, pacifically teach behaviors that if practiced literally would minimize or avoid persecution. Supposed to actually do good to those that hate us, but once somebody's hate turns out into active persecution, we're supposed to back to hell off only pray for our enemy. That isnt just the loving way to go. It is the safe way to go.

Since Christians tend to be human, Actually some the phones have interpreted Jesus' advice by yelling, at the top of their lungs, "I WILL PRAY FOR YOU" in order to proclaim to the world that (1) the target of the Proclamation is an enemy, (2) the speaker is being persecuted, and/or (3) are so wonderfully righteous that they're still loving their enemy.

I don't think that's the course of action Jesus meant to teach us.

[ March 12, 2013, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by simplybiological:
Pete-

quote:
I am not familiar with the Steubensville case; what I had in mind when I started this sub-thread (and I think we're ethically on the same page here) was the Mike Tyson "she knew what I was when she chose to go out with me" defense
That's a similar mindset to what is purportedly coming out of the defense in Ohio; in that case it's more of, 'If you go out drinking with a bunch of jocks, it's like... implied silent consent," or something.

The case is HORRIFYING. I mean, all rapes are horrifying, but this one is especially so because the kids filmed various parts of it, and are laughing, mocking the passed out girl, and tweeting about it. Anonymous found the video and leaked it, I highly suggest NOT watching it (but, if you want to, here it is on Jezebel <-- be advised, it's a very liberal/female-biased site). The details are just extra appalling because of the desensitization of the youth involved.

I knew guys in high school to talk like that. Fortunately they are a minority. And fortunately the women that claim that all boys are just like that, are a minority, even on Jezebel. As far as I'm concerned women that say that, are an even more vital part of the rape culture than the boys on the video. I hate them equally. And I don't even hate the woman molested me.
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noel c.
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- "Where I disagree with Noel is in the implication living the Sermon on the Mount atracts persecution. "...

Pete, the currency of the Beatitudes is so other-worldly that Nietzsche saw the sermon as an embodiment of "slave morality", only to be compounded by the problem of obedience to no earthly master (like Spartacus in sequel). It is not simply a coincidence of bad luck that political authority ran headlong into nascent Christianity... at least until it was absorbed into the authority structure.

- "I don't think that's the course of action Jesus meant to teach us. "...

Jesus actually was clear in his message to those in power:

- "And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox (Herod), Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."

- "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

- "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

- "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others."

... And the list goes on, he was anything but a prelude to Andrew Carnegie.

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Pete at Home
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I agree entirely with everything that you just said in that last post. And you have precisely identify did the scriptural counterpoint, to the breast-beating, loudspeaker "i will pray for you, dear enemy!" mockery of Christianity.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Do you read that to mean ONLY those who are persecuted for righteousness sake?

What if you couldn't find a persecutor?

Sorry, read too fast.

Is it folly to attempt to avoid it?

Send some what you do to avoid persecution. If Ender had knuckled under to avoid persecution, he might not have survived. Story Certainly would've been less interesting. He finally escape persecution by refusing to turn from it. Building up the very qualities that enraged his enemies. Became too strong to destroy.
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D.W.
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My comments sprung from this by noel, "I think you need to think further. Acceptance of Christianity came with a non-specific disclaimer that it could cost you your life. Do you want that risk to simply go away?" The way I interpreted this was that noel possibly didn't want that risk to go away.


The right to practice one's religion seemed to be an attempt to if not an indication of the desire to "want that risk to simply go away."


If your experiences or faith lead you to believe that our existence here is a trial or test then the position makes sense to me. I don't really think of life in such terms. I do concede that concept exists within the teachings I was exposed to though I think to a lesser degree than it was to others. But maybe I just wasn't paying as much attention in my youth and didn't have near as much exposure in my adulthood. [Smile]


We're getting way off track here but I'm curious what best serves mankind. Striving to eliminate such threats and strife or striking a balance between comfort and pressure to avoid stagnation or atrophy. Not exactly the path I expected when pointing out that noel's comments seemed to counter what I perceive as "good" in freedom of religion.

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noel c.
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- "Striving to eliminate such threats and strife or striking a balance between comfort and pressure to avoid stagnation or atrophy. Not exactly the path I expected when pointing out that noel's comments... "...

Premised by the qualifier that no religion with roots in the judeo-christianity anticipates a legislatively created "new world", the best that can be achieved in the "service of mankind" is the building of zion(s) within the present one. Mormon experience in the United States indicates that even this limited aspiration can result in a tenuous occupation by the Federal army.

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Pete at Home
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"Premised by the qualifier that no religion with roots in the judeo-christianity anticipates a legislatively created "new world", the best that can be achieved in the "service of mankind" is the building of zion(s) within the present one."

I'm not certain that no JudeoChristian religion has ever anticipated an legislatively created new world, but I do very much like the latter phrase. I might even take it further:
"the best that can be achieved in the "service of mankind" is the building of zion(s) in despite of the present one."

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