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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » A case to distinguish real pro-choicers from pro-abortion dehumanizers (Page 2)

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Author Topic: A case to distinguish real pro-choicers from pro-abortion dehumanizers
Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
If the creature itself never realized what it missed out on, if it never achieved conciousness, then I don't see there being too big a loss.

Isn't that the rationale the people in the movie The Matrix, use for casually killing "coppertops," i.e. fellow humans not conscious of the group's great transcendent red pill truth?
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djquag1
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I don't think so. The people in the Matrix were still aware and sentient humans. I think their killing had more to do with necessary collateral damage in a war. Also, from a certain viewpoint, people not choosing the red pill could be seen as having chosen to continue to aid the enemy. Not necessarily how I would view it, but a valid viewpoint all the same.
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Pete at Home
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Check the source again. They use the term coppertop to trivialize the death of someone that was not "aware." The journal for the Columbine killers used the same term, Coppertop, To trivialize the lives of others that they were about to take.
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djquag1
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Right. Not aware that they were living inside of a simulation. Not unaware as in "grandma's heart stopped for twenty minutes, she's braindead" or a four month old fetus.

If you want to believe that our situation is similar, that the afterlife is us waking up from this Matrix-like world, that's fine. If you want to claim it as truth, however, you're going to need a bit more support then that given by some moldy Bronze Age book.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
If you want to believe that our situation is similar, that the afterlife is us waking up from this Matrix-like world, that's fine.
WTF?

If *I* want to believe that? That's the very position that I've been condemning. That's Calvinism. The idea that some people are hopeless and predestined for damnation is a world view which my own religious tradition calls an "abomination." I differ from Mormons on a few points but I wholeheartedly agree with them on that point. I've said here for years, that a Christian who believes in Free will has more in common theologically with an Atheist that believes in Free Will, than with a Calvinist.

Yank God out of Calvinism and you end up with something like the Matrix or like the world view of the Columbine killers. And the words you use circle right around that moral drain.

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djquag1
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Gosh, I've really been enjoying this comparison of me to the Columbine killers, but unless they were killing people who demonstrably lacked a conciousness, I'm not really seeing the connection.
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Pete at Home
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If I thought you were like the Columbine killers, I'd not be wasting time talking to you.

I don't think that those folks that wrote the Matrix were like the Columbine killers, either. But their terms were co-opted by the Columbine killers. I'm saying likewise that your arguments and terminology could and has been used to justify many kinds of homicide, not just the killing of fetuses and infants.

I've made appeals to your conscience, because in the time that I've spoken to you, I'm convinced that you have one. You talk the tough atheist talk like you think I'm being soft and mushy because of my belief in God which you despise, but that's just politics. Underneath those trappings, I think you have a sense of right and wrong, a conscience. You don't have to believe in God to have a conscience.

If you're taking my argument as an attack on you, rather than a critique of the language that you use, then let's end the argument now. [Frown]

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Pete at Home
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I appreciate your frankness about your beliefs and point of view; it is refreshing to argue with someone that doesn't cover unpopular or sinister opinions with a veneer of political correctness.
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djquag1
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Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding, Pete.

And yeah, I have a conscience. It's definitely not from a god. The farthest I've been able to look inwards suggests that it's a mix of the empathy that almost all humans possess, and a firm belief in the Golden Rule due mostly to selfish reasons.

But empathy is definitely a big part of it. If I were forced to beat a dog to death with my own hands, it's screams and struggles and the certain knowledge of it's pain would rip me up inside.

I can say truthfully that the cruel death of a dog would bother me more then the death of a fetus, because I would consider the dog to have much more in common with me mentally then a blob of cells or a tadpole does.

When it comes to third trimester, I would think the best compromise is to allow the woman to have labor induced at any time that she wishes, regardless of the consequence to the fetus. If the fetus survives, it can be a ward of the state. If it doesn't, well, no real suffering has occured.

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Pete at Home
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Thank you for reading my clarification rather than sticking to your preconceptions of where I was coming from. I wrote heatedly, so your misunderstanding was at least partly my fault.

"When it comes to third trimester, I would think the best compromise is to allow the woman to have labor induced at any time that she wishes, regardless of the consequence to the fetus."

That is a refreshingly conscientious position, attempting to balance the different rights at play. I'm not sure it's the best solution we can come up with, but it's certainly one of the better proposals that I've ever read. It deserves further consideration.

"I would consider the dog to have much more in common with me mentally then a blob of cells"

I agree, but as I understand, a blob of cells is an embryo or blastocyst, not a fetus.

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