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Author Topic: Boston Marathon Explosion
Wayward Son
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Once again, I don't think he was motivated by "right wing extremism."

I think he tried to benefit from the information provided by "right wing extremism." How much he actually benefitted is debatable.

I suspect there was some mental disorders in the mix. Tamerlan was the younger brother (IIRC). I think he was heavily influenced by his older brother; "fraternal pressure" rather than "peer pressure" if you will. I suspect his older brother was mentally ill. Certainly disturbed.

And I don't think he was insane, so he should stand trial.

I think Islam was merely the justification the older brother used. You don't have to be a terrorist or even sanction terrorism to be a good Moslem. But he found Moslems that do, and glommed onto the cause. He could have used any number of other causes as justification.

Tamerlan used right-wing extremism not for motivation, but for information for killing and fuel for hatred, just as he used radical Islam for the same purposes. He just happens to use radical Islam to justify himself.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Once again, I don't think he was motivated by "right wing extremism."

I think he tried to benefit from the information provided by "right wing extremism." How much he actually benefitted is debatable.

I suspect there was some mental disorders in the mix. Tamerlan was the younger brother (IIRC). I think he was heavily influenced by his older brother; "fraternal pressure" rather than "peer pressure" if you will. I suspect his older brother was mentally ill. Certainly disturbed.

And I don't think he was insane, so he should stand trial.

I think Islam was merely the justification the older brother used. You don't have to be a terrorist or even sanction terrorism to be a good Moslem. But he found Moslems that do, and glommed onto the cause. He could have used any number of other causes as justification.

Tamerlan used right-wing extremism not for motivation, but for information for killing and fuel for hatred, just as he used radical Islam for the same purposes. He just happens to use radical Islam to justify himself.

I disagree. We know from his travels where he went, who he was with. We know that the Russians flagged him as a threat and that we didn't take that threat seriously and let him back in anyway.

I contend that radical Islamism's role in this was so pervasive that if radical Islamism did not exist then there would have been no attack from these two. I do not buy for a second that either of them just wanted to "hurt" random people and were looking for a cause to justify it.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You don't have to be a terrorist or even sanction terrorism to be a good Moslem.
As a drug dealer and alcoholic and murderer, he was actually a pretty terrible Muslim.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
I contend that radical Islamism's role in this was so pervasive that if radical Islamism did not exist then there would have been no attack from these two. I do not buy for a second that either of them just wanted to "hurt" random people and were looking for a cause to justify it.
Well, I contend that they were angry and frustrated (or at least the older brother was) and gravitated to radical Islam as a vent for that anger, leading to hurting random people. If there was no radical Islam, they would have found some other "cause." I very much doubt that, but for radical Islam, they would have become peaceful, prosperous citizens (or at least the older brother).
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Seneca
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The Russians had solid intel on how the older brother was radicalized by Islamists on his trips out of the country because he was headed back home. It's also in question whether they even recruited him, we don't know for sure who approached who.

If those people would have never existed I seriously doubt he would have searched out more "negative influences" to help him vent his true wish to "harm random people."

There are lots of angry people who walk around without hurting others or getting involved in plots to attack anyone. It's called a modern and stressful society.

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Wayward Son
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OTOH, the reason the FBI did not investigate him further after he was flagged by the Russians is because there are dozens and dozens of such people flagged by the Russians who have not become involved in attacks (so far, that we know of). So while many have had similar experiences with radical Islam as the brothers did, they have not harmed random people.

So there must have been something different with these two that had nothing to do with radical Islam.

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D.W.
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quote:
I contend that radical Islamism's role in this was so pervasive that if radical Islamism did not exist then there would have been no attack from these two. I do not buy for a second that either of them just wanted to "hurt" random people and were looking for a cause to justify it.
Got to second this. The older brother wouldn't have been a paragon of good behavior but his potential for destruction would have been much diminished. He would probably have ended up your run of the mill thug and wife abuser.
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AI Wessex
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In other words, Islam channeled his violent tendencies, but Islam was neither the root nor the cause of his violent behavior. This has been my perspective all along, and I have been waiting for some real evidence to contradict it. So far, no one has provided any, despite the loud insistence that Islam was indeed the root and cause.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
In other words, Islam channeled his violent tendencies, but Islam was neither the root nor the cause of his violent behavior. This has been my perspective all along, and I have been waiting for some real evidence to contradict it. So far, no one has provided any, despite the loud insistence that Islam was indeed the root and cause.

Is this your perspective on drug cartels, white supremacists, Black Panthers, and Tea Partiers too?

[ August 06, 2013, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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D.W.
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The only way I could see someone making that case AI would be to see his actions as an attempt to overcompensate for being such a terrible or neglectful Muslim that he took up what he believed to be a righteous cause for his previously neglected religion in an attempt to redeem himself. That would put (a violent extremist version of) Islam at the root I suppose...

[ August 06, 2013, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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AI Wessex
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DJ: "Is this your perspective on drug cartels, white supremacists, Black Panthers, and Tea Partiers too?"

No, though I think some psychological exploration of tea partiers would be an interesting exercise.

DW: "The only way I could see someone making that case AI would be to see his actions as an attempt to overcompensate for being such a terrible or neglectful Muslim..."

You realize the assumption in that statement, that he was driven by guilt for his bad Muslim attitude, when I am saying he may perhaps only have been a MINO (Muslim in name only). In reality, he may have been no different from a white supremicist, sociopath or otherwise deeply disturbed person whose mental illness went untreated.

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D.W.
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I was just positing how one COULD make the case. I don't agree with it.

My theory, which is admittedly pretty useless, is that he was just a frustrated looser looking to vent his anger. He latched onto radicalized Islam because he didn't think he had a future and this, just might, give his life meaning. It also had the benefit of making others around him "the enemy" and the relieving himself of blame for his failures.

He WAS no different from a white supremacist, sociopath. A disturbed antisocial thug or even homicidal person is not nearly as big a danger to society as someone who latches onto a cause who can blame a large group.

I feel Islam is only to blame in so far that it is used to define a class of enemies. The same goes for white supremacists or ethnic warfare. I suggest that without a cause or focus which allowed him to think in terms of an enemy class he likely would not have killed anyone.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
I was just positing how one COULD make the case. I don't agree with it.

My theory, which is admittedly pretty useless, is that he was just a frustrated looser looking to vent his anger. He latched onto radicalized Islam because he didn't think he had a future and this, just might, give his life meaning. It also had the benefit of making others around him "the enemy" and the relieving himself of blame for his failures.

He WAS no different from a white supremacist, sociopath. A disturbed antisocial thug or even homicidal person is not nearly as big a danger to society as someone who latches onto a cause who can blame a large group.

I feel Islam is only to blame in so far that it is used to define a class of enemies. The same goes for white supremacists or ethnic warfare. I suggest that without a cause or focus which allowed him to think in terms of an enemy class he likely would not have killed anyone.

I find myself agreeing very much with this line of reasoning.
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AI Wessex
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'Zackly.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
In other words, Islam channeled his violent tendencies, but Islam was neither the root nor the cause of his violent behavior. This has been my perspective all along, and I have been waiting for some real evidence to contradict it. So far, no one has provided any, despite the loud insistence that Islam was indeed the root and cause.

Al, I don't like using the term Islam to describe what is really specifically the fundamentalist subspecies of Islam embraced by Osama Bin Laden and his homies; let's call it Oslam for short.
So let's say that Oslam channeled Roadkill's violent tendencies, and also channeled the Joker's tendency to be his brother's little bitch follower. They already had these tendencies; Oslam didn't create them.

See the problem with your argument, or do I need to explain it all the way?

The Wizards of Oslam, Al Qaeda, have put out this little magazine that attracts a violent psycho audience. The magazine shows violent psychos and their little bitches how to put together a bomb and to use it for maximum effect.

Therefore, even if Al Qaeda is not the "root cause" of Roadkill's inner thuggishness, or of the Joker's tendency to follow his thug brother like a worthless lapdog, Al Qaeda was in fact a cause of the Boston Marathon Explosion.

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Seneca
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I agree with the point that if not for radical Islamism Tamerlan would have been just another thug lowlife and wife abuser and probably not bombed anyone.
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Pete at Home
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He might have killed his wife and child, I suppose. But since he was out of school, I would not expect a school shooting, and since he was too ass lazy to do anything but mooch off his 80-hour-working wife, while his kid sat in day care, that kind of rules out a workplace shooting.

Al Qaeda, the Wizards of Oslam, share in the responsibility for this atrocity, since they basically weaponized a low-grade semi-dangerous loser.

[ August 07, 2013, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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AI Wessex
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"Al Qaeda, the Wizards of Oslam, share in the responsibility for this atrocity, since they basically weaponized a low-grade semi-dangerous loser."

If someone becomes infatuated with roller skating and commits a mass murder at a roller rink, does that mean that roller skating "shares in the responsibility for [the] atrocity"?

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D.W.
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Only if they target "the man" who happens to be on a team building exercise at the roller rink. I can't think of any other group considered an enemy to radical roller skaters.
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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:

If someone becomes infatuated with roller skating and commits a mass murder at a roller rink, does that mean that roller skating "shares in the responsibility for [the] atrocity"?

Does roller skating advocate and encourage mass murder?
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Al Qaeda, the Wizards of Oslam, share in the responsibility for this atrocity, since they basically weaponized a low-grade semi-dangerous loser."

If someone becomes infatuated with roller skating and commits a mass murder at a roller rink, does that mean that roller skating "shares in the responsibility for [the] atrocity"?

You are trying to equate roller skating with AQ???

Talk about uber stretchy.

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AI Wessex
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As far as I know roller skating is just a healthful and fun activity, but guilt by association is a powerful human impulse. I could have come up with a better analogy, I suppose [Wink] .
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D.W.
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AI, the activity/group, in order to share or be fully to blame for the deadly incident, needs to have a very specific component.

It must be able to be interpreted as making those not part of the group less than human by nature or deserving of punishment death for their actions, inactions or ancestry.

I have yet to find any roller skating group which fits this criteria. Then again I'm not all that familiar with roller derby culture. [Razz]

Now whether this criteria is met by Islam in a pure form I'm not knowledgeable enough to say definitively. Radical Islam, as demonstrated and presented by AQ certainly does as do some of the other examples cited.

If a group convinces itself that it is more deserving or better than another group (or everyone else) they will eventually suffer for that view. Eventually (or often) there will be those who believe they are part of this group who lash out against those outside of that group with violence. The group does share responsibility for the actions of those outliers, when they are not fully to blame for it.

[ August 08, 2013, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Grant:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:

If someone becomes infatuated with roller skating and commits a mass murder at a roller rink, does that mean that roller skating "shares in the responsibility for [the] atrocity"?

Does roller skating advocate and encourage mass murder?
I can't think of any large, organized religion except Islam that has huge factions calling for the violent death of others. Methodists? Nope. Pentecostals? Nope. Catholics? Nope. Buddhists? Nope. Hindus? Nope.

Hrm...

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Pete at Home
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Hindus? Yes. Google Guyarat Massacres.
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Pete at Home
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The Al Wessex Roller Scatology fallacy:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"Al Qaeda, the Wizards of Oslam, share in the responsibility for this atrocity, since they basically weaponized a low-grade semi-dangerous loser."

If someone becomes infatuated with roller skating and commits a mass murder at a roller rink, does that mean that roller skating "shares in the responsibility for [the] atrocity"?

So in Al's moral universe giving detailed instructions on how to build a bomb and maximize civilian casualties, is no morally different than roller skating?

Once again, I have to wonder if Al Wessex and G3 are just different hands of the same puppet master, like I've sometimes said of RickyB and Lisa.

[ August 08, 2013, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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RedVW on a Laptop
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That has crossed mine as well in both cases.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Hindus? Yes. Google Guyarat Massacres.

That is a continuous, regular, and current problem rooted in a major source of doctrine in the Hindu faith that involves a significant portion of the Hindu population and keeps them involved to this day?
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Pete at Home
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<Dumbfounded.> What proportion of the Muslim population is continuously, regularly, and currently involved to this day in massacring non-Muslims?

Dude, the governor of Guyarat was a member of the then-majority BJP party, which completely enabled that son of a bitch. Although said son of a bitch was later placed on a US no fly list, thank heavens and George W. Bush! No sir, there's a broad swath of rotten in fundamentalist political Hinduism as well as in Islam. Just ask the mother****er that murdered the Mahatma.

[ August 08, 2013, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seneca
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Is it continuous? How long was it going for? Is it still going on today? Does it compare to the "global jihad" that radical Islamism has?

What is the current global bodycount of that vs radical Islamism?

[ August 08, 2013, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Pete at Home
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"Does it compare to the "global jihad" that radical Islamism has?"

In terms of numbers, 790 Muslims were murdered in Guyarat in 2002. In terms of sheer horror, I think that women and children being burned alive on youtube while their husbands and fathers were forced to watch, exceeds anything the Islamicists have done in terms of sheer terroristic crime. The ethnic cleansing was largely premeditated and supported by Gujarat state authorities. Minister Modi and his cronies provided the mobs with targets and hit lists. The Naroda Patiya massacre that took place directly next to a police training camp
.

quote:
Dionne Bunsha writing on the Gulbarg Society massacre and murder of Ehsan Jafri, has said that Jafri begged the crowd to spare the women, he was dragged into the street and forced to parade naked yet he refused to say "Jai Shri Ram". He was then beheaded and thrown onto a fire, following this the rioters returned and burned Jafri's family, including two small boys to death. After the massacre Gulbarg burned for a week.[42][46] According to Siddharth Varadarajan on February 28 in the districts of Morjari Chowk and Charodia Chowk, in Ahmedabad of forty people killed by police shooting, all were Muslim.[47] It is estimated that at least 250 girls and women had been gang raped and then burned to death.[48] Children were killed by being burnt alive and those digging mass graves described the bodies as "burned and butchered beyond recognition".[49] Children were force fed petrol and then set on fire, pregnant women were gutted and their unborn child's body then shown to the women. In the Naroda Patiya mass grave of 96 bodies 46 were women. The murderers also flooded homes and electrocuted entire families inside.[50] Violence against women also included their being stripped naked, objects being forced into their bodies and then their being killed.
Children and infants were speared and held aloft before being thrown into fires.[54] Describing the sexual violence perpetrated against Muslim women and girls, Renu Khanna writes that the survivors reported "that sexual violence consisted of forced nudity, mass rapes, gang-rapes, mutilation, insertion of objects into bodies, cutting of breasts, slitting the stomach and reproductive organs, and carving of Hindu religious symbols on women’s body parts."[55] The Concerned Citizens’ Tribunal, characterised the use of rape "as an instrument for the subjugation and humiliation of a community".[55] Testimony heard by the committee stated that:

A chilling technique, absent in pogroms unleashed hitherto but very much in evidence this time in a large number of cases, was the deliberate destruction of evidence. Barring a few, in most instances of sexual violence, the women victims were stripped and paraded naked, then gang-raped, and thereafter quartered and burnt beyond recognition. . .The leaders of the mobs even raped young girls, some as young as 11 years old. . . before burning them alive. . . Even a 20-day-old infant, or a fetus in the womb of its mother, was not spared.[55]

For the first time in the history of communal riots Hindu women took part, and looted Muslim shops.[37] According to Vandana Shiva "Young boys have been taught to burn, rape and kill in the name of Hindutva".

Again, the sheer sadism and popular participation in atrocities, dwarfs anything seen in the last century in Islam.

I am no fan of Al Qaeda, but compare to Hindu Fundamentalists, AQ are a bunch of choirboys. The only virtue is that Hinduistas are not, to my knowledge, global.

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Seneca
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Not to discount live broadcasted burning of people, but I think passenger planes flying into the WTC buildings is a bit worse than that in both sheer horror and body count of what happened that day... and that doesn't account for all the operations over in the middle east, the beheadings, IEDs, firearms attacks, etc.

[ August 08, 2013, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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Horribly sick and terribly twisted events have, do, and will continue to happen... until human beings cease to exist.

Jihad against "the great Satan" does not appear to be on the decline. And that fact is the rationale for spying on every American. And yes, Mr. Obama is totally hip to the jive while leading an ongoing national domestic spying program. I don't care what he tells Leno. Lying is lying and spying is spying. And, on my end, crying is crying.

The Guyarat Massacres showcased the most vile side of human nature. Absolutely disgusting! But not a current threat to America.

[ August 08, 2013, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkJello:
Horribly sick and terribly twisted events have, do, and will continue to happen... until human beings cease to exist.

Jihad against "the great Satan" does not appear to be on the decline. And that fact is the rationale for spying on every American. And yes, Mr. Obama is totally hip to the jive while leading an ongoing national domestic spying program. I don't care what he tells Leno. Lying is lying and spying is spying. And, on my end, crying is crying.

The Guyarat Massacres showcased the most vile side of human nature. Absolutely disgusting! But not a current threat to America.

It was truly absurd for Obama to get on Tv and say "Americans don't back down" right after he closed those embassies...

Then he said, "we don't get terrorized" right after we found about the government cloning the entire internet for fear of its own citizens...

Disgusting. Anyone who values liberty should be counting the days until Obama is out of office.

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NobleHunter
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quote:
Anyone who values liberty should be counting the days until Obama is out of office.
Why? It's not like the next guy is going to do anything different.

I'd say they'd be better off encouraging reforms of the myriad intelligence bureaucracies than just counting days.

It's a fool's game to think that The Other Party will be significantly different on issues of "national security." Regardless of who currently has the top job.

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AI Wessex
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Pete: "Once again, I have to wonder if Al Wessex and G3 are just different hands of the same puppet master,..."

Red: "That has crossed mine as well in both cases."

Earlier Aris also wondered that aloud. Since the three of you ponder that possibility and no one has refuted it, by the kind of thinking you do about making identifications, who's to say that you're wrong? Doesn't matter what I say, does it?

But in my (I think it's only my own) defense, I'll reiterate that guilt by association is a powerful impulse when people want answers to questions that don't have enough information to form actual reasoned judgments about. Beware all ye who judge too quickly in order to find the comfort of an answer.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
quote:
Anyone who values liberty should be counting the days until Obama is out of office.
Why? It's not like the next guy is going to do anything different.

I'd say they'd be better off encouraging reforms of the myriad intelligence bureaucracies than just counting days.

It's a fool's game to think that The Other Party will be significantly different on issues of "national security." Regardless of who currently has the top job.

There are other options besides the two neo-liberal instutionalist parties.

I hope that America gets viable 3rd party candidates going quickly. Even if they don't it's possible a libertarian leaning candidate like Rand Paul might make his way up the chain.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Not to discount live broadcasted burning of people, but I think passenger planes flying into the WTC buildings is a bit worse than that in both sheer horror and body count of what happened that day... and that doesn't account for all the operations over in the middle east, the beheadings, IEDs, firearms attacks, etc.

I wasn't talking about body count, but if you're going to do that, then you need to divide proportinately muslims vs. hindus:

http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-muslims-are-there-in-the-world Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion.

http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-hindus-are-there-in-the-world
Hinduism is the world's third largest religion, after Christianity and Islam. It claims about 851 million followers approximately 13% of the world's population. It is the dominant religion in India, Nepal, and among the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Speaking of which, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War
quote:
or over 27 years, this civil war caused significant hardships for the population, environment and the economy of the country, with an estimated 80,000–100,000 people killed during its course
As for sheer horror, well, you're obviously wrong. The 9/11 attacks dwarf the Hindu stuff in terms of number of victims, but I'm talking about NUMBER OF PERPETRATORS, which is obviously more relevant when you're talking about the culpability of an entire people. Hell, man, according to Bin Laden not even the all the bloody hijackers knew that the mission involved flying into a building. Compare that to Hindu women, children, and men being involved in the rape, torture, dismemberment, and burning alive of Muslim women and children in front of the men, and carving their "holy" symbols into the flesh of the victims. Humanity check, man. Think about it.
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AI Wessex
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quote:
It was truly absurd for Obama to get on Tv and say "Americans don't back down" right after he closed those embassies...

Then he said, "we don't get terrorized" right after we found about the government cloning the entire internet for fear of its own citizens...

Disgusting. Anyone who values liberty should be counting the days until Obama is out of office.

I'm constantly amused when people on the right attack Obama for being unworthy of the office held by his (Republican) predecessors because he doesn't measure up to their standard of action or policy, and by others who complain that he is no different from them. Sometimes it's the same people doing it.

Can't have it both ways, but you can always find a reason to explain why you hate him. [Smile] You just have to not be bothered by inconsistency.

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Seneca
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Because anyone who criticizes Obama must have LOVED Bush or at least NEVER criticized him... [Roll Eyes]

Pete, Lets put this into some context. This forum is called Ornery American. It is not called the Ornery Muslim or Ornery Hindu. Most of this is in context about what affects America. Even if I stipulated that maybe overall violence in Hinduism is worse per # killed than Islam, which I'd still dispute, it's not a threat to America and we can do nothing to stop it.

Where are the Hindu massacres inside America? Where are the Americans being threatened by this?

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