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Author Topic: Boston Marathon Explosion
kmbboots
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from my phone which is annoying.

Pete, "Christian" does not always mean the same thing. For general use I would not quibble over your calling yourself Christian. In a more technical, theological, doctrinal sense, I have explained the difference. Unless you are being technical when you use the term, you are mistaking my view.

As is in evidence in a nearby thread, even Christians disagree on what makes a good one, though.

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kmbboots
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Also, I don't believe the "supernatural" consequences are carved in stone.
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KidTokyo
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They got him.

I grew up in the burbs just outside Boston. Spend my youth there, went to college there. I used to complain about Boston.

Never knew until this week how much I love the place. Not in the sense "oh, great nightlife, cuisine, yadda yadda" but something very fundamental, the place where one was a child and a teenager on first dates, or in the city on a Saturday with friends. Love the faces, the accents, the no-nonsense attitudes, the friendly sarcasm, the all-around competence on most matters that you just don't get anywhere else.

Monday upset me more than I was prepared for. Catching this suspect on a Friday makes me happier than I can express.

Wish I was there, wanna buy someone a beer. [Smile]

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D.W.
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Amazing work by the community and police on this one.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
from my phone which is annoying.

Pete, "Christian" does not always mean the same thing. For general use I would not quibble over your calling yourself Christian. In a more technical, theological, doctrinal sense, I have explained the difference. Unless you are being technical when you use the term, you are mistaking my view.

Thank you, Kate. I meant to represent you correctly and did not mean to complain against you. (I did before I understood that it spoke to baptism). For my explanation to djquag, would it satisfy you if I said:

quote:
Some Christians don't even regard me as a fellow Christian. Some other Christians, such as Kate on this board, have expressed that I am not "technically" a Christian.
Thanks. I left out the "theological, doctrinal" part since that would imply that you regard me as a mere cultural Christian, which I certainly hope is not your position. [Mad]

BTW, I had always understood that it was extremely bad manners to wish a Jehovah's Witness a "happy Easter." I mean, worse than wishing an Orthodox Jew a "merry Christmas," or wishing a Kwanza celebrant a "happy Black Hanukkah." [Razz]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Also, I don't believe the "supernatural" consequences are carved in stone.

Yeah, I think Tom got us both wrong on that one. [Smile] But I think he meant well. And it turns out he was right to correct me on what I thought you'd said; I'd meant well too. [Cool]
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Amazing work by the community and police on this one.

No kidding. It was like a reverse lynch mob. An angry mob helped hunt him down, then turned info over to the police who took him alive. Guess terror picked on the wrong town.

[ April 19, 2013, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Viking_Longship
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Djquag your position seems to be that religous people are obliged to let you deliberately push their buttons and if they object you get to cry foul. No subject works that way here, not politics, not religion, not anything period. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

If you're going to disrespect Christianity I have the right to disrespect atheists. Don't start whining because you got a taste of your own medicine and you didn't like it.

You have the right to be nasty about religion. You don't have the right to expect the religous to bear it in silence.

Grow up.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
I'm just saying that there's little reason to think that we're as far removed from stake burning or it's equivilant as people seem to think.

In his preface to his play St. Joan, George Bernard Shaw (an atheist) agrees with you, but he's not talking about religion, or at least not specifically about religion.

quote:
I think it would be far more likely that you'd end up cursing your Arab "brothers" for making the religion look monstrous.
The ones who make it look monstrous today, to me, are the Westboro Baptist church and Christian Identity on the Fundie side, and the pligs and other single-prophetic-leader-speaks-for-everyone types that parallel Jim Jones. (Mormons temper their belief in revelation, with a "common consent" requirement of unanimous consensus!).

[ April 19, 2013, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
The idea that converting the Middle East to Christianity would improve things is a massive joke. I'll rail against public support and funding for that all day, every day.
I would likewise rail against PUBLIC support of any sort of proselytizing. Christianity was set up to be separate from the government. Christendom, the idea of a government married to a Christian church, was a disaster for the Christian faith.

OTOH, I think that converting the Middle East to Christianity would improve things. Converting the West to Christianity would likewise improve things. If folks who call themselves Christian, would actually read the bible, and follow Jesus' teachings, and become truly converted, things, that would be the greatest thing of all. But that's not something that could be done by coercion, or through some government program.

If you understood what Christianity is, you might not agree with it, but I don't think you would see it as a threat.

No one on here, including me, ever suggested public funding for a mission to evangelize Muslims. He probably thought I was saying that because it's what he wanted me to be saying.

The funny thing here is that I lived in Turkiye (Which is how they spell it) and deeply love its people and culture. I have spent the last three years working with Saudis, Iraqis and Turks on a daily basis. They are as a whole (some of the individuals are jerks) probably the finest people I have ever met.

I have spoken to many of them about religion. Its always been mutually respectful. They also often are suprisingly knowledgeable about Christianity. They are often suprised and pleased that I am interested in and, for an American, knowledgeable about Islam.

I am getting so tired of people trying to tell me what I can and can not say about this subject based on a script that never really went before the people it's about.

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KidTokyo
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I have noticed that atheists and libertarians share the same foible of sabotaging their own cause as a result of enjoying themselves too much.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
I have noticed that atheists and libertarians share the same foible of sabotaging their own cause as a result of enjoying themselves too much.

That's the problem with having a theory of everything.
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KidTokyo
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VL,

I wouldn't call either a "theory of everything." It's more a matter of becoming overconfident and smug at having seen through certain commonly-held pieties, and then failing to think critically beyond that. Ok, maybe it's the same thing.

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Pete at Home
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"I would likewise rail against PUBLIC support of any sort of proselytizing. Christianity was set up to be separate from the government. Christendom, the idea of a government married to a Christian church, was a disaster for the Christian faith."

"No one on here, including me, ever suggested public funding for a mission to evangelize Muslims."

Agreed. Hence no railing.

djquag: "I'm pissing on the idea that proslytizing is going to fix anything."

I've been prostelytized by Catholics, Jews (who supposedly don't proselytize to non-Jews, so go figure, they said I seemed to have a Jewish soul) and at least three varieties of Pagans, and I found the experiences quite enriching. I felt valued because I could tell the people cared about me and wanted to share with me what they found most precious. I've always walked away from the experience with a greater understanding and appreciation for the other group. If you take the approach of sharing your beliefs, rather than trying to attack someone else's beliefs, it's a wonderful thing.

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Viking_Longship
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KT I have found, and I say this as someone very sympathetic to libertarians, that there are a signifigant number of them that have made libertarianism a theory of eveything.
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KidTokyo
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quote:
KT I have found, and I say this as someone very sympathetic to libertarians, that there are a signifigant number of them that have made libertarianism a theory of eveything.
Heh, I don't doubt it.

I confess I would love to hear an ardent libertarian explanation for how the free market can solve the problem of cosmic acceleration. No wait....privatize dark matter, increasing its demand and, hence, encouraging increased production. [Smile]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I've been prostelytized by Catholics, Jews (who supposedly don't proselytize to non-Jews, so go figure, they said I seemed to have a Jewish soul) and at least three varieties of Pagans, and I found the experiences quite enriching. I felt valued because I could tell the people cared about me and wanted to share with me what they found most precious. I've always walked away from the experience with a greater understanding and appreciation for the other group. If you take the approach of sharing your beliefs, rather than trying to attack someone else's beliefs, it's a wonderful thing.
I used to keep a rule that if someone I was on friendly terms with invited me to a religous service I'd go at least once. While I went places I had no desire to visit again, including a Mormon tabernacle (is that the right word?), I never regretted that policy even though I have since dropped it. (I figured I was being the religous version of a prick-tease.)

[ April 19, 2013, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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djquag1
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Viking - *I* can't take it? Now that's a laugh, coming from someone who seemingly missed school the day they went over the "sticks and stones" couplet and what it meant. Trust me, I can take it just fine. You won't hear me whining about how terrible someone is because they disparaged my belief system, you'll just find me laughing when someone gets all red faced about blasphemy.

Grow up.

I'm certain enough in my beliefs that other people questioning them doesn't bother me in the slightest, least of all people who want to snicker because I've never heard "the voice of god" in my head. Or had shivers run down my spine as "the holy spirit" entered me. There's reality, and then there's what can not ever be proven, and has never had a shred of verifiable evidence to back it up.

The latter would be what you believe, and you getting pissy about someone pointing out that no, actually, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes, is endlessly amusing.

Christianity is blatantly false. Islam is blatantly false. Judaism, Hinduism, ancestor spirits and the Son of Sam are all blatantly false. If they weren't, they'd have something, anything at all, to back them up beyond praying and spirits and all of that hogwash. But hey, if I'm wrong and there's a reason to believe beyond "There has to be SOMETHING behind it all, right?!? It's scary if there's not!" then by all means, lay it on me, I'm listening. But I sure won't be holding my breath.

Oh, and good job, working with those Saudis. They're such fine people. You convince them yet to let their wives drive a car or leave the house without an adult male?

[ April 20, 2013, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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djquag1
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KidTokyo - I don't have a cause, and I'm not looking to convert people. Religion requires belief in the supernatural without cause at it's very beginning, so me pointing out reality probably isn't going to do anything, and I'm not particularly inclined to even try. I will say what I say, and people can take from that what they will.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Oh, and good job, working with those Saudis. They're such fine people. You convince them yet to let their wives drive a car or leave the house without an adult male?
The driving thing never came up, but some of my Saudi students are women and all of them leave the house without a male escort. Pretty much all of them want to see their society change signifigantly. You rely too much on sterotypes.

quote:
You won't hear me whining about how terrible someone is because they disparaged my belief system, you'll just find me laughing when someone gets all red faced about blasphemy
I've already heard you do it once today when I said I think New Atheism is racist, which you turned around and were nice enough to confirm for me when you started going after arabs.


quote:
The latter would be what you believe, and you getting pissy about someone pointing out that no, actually, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes, is endlessly amusing.
You appear to know only the bare minimum about religion so I doubt you have much of an idea of what I actually believe.I am, however, not your strawman Christian.

I don't think your blasphemy has any real world signifigance but I am not going to play this game where you keep insulting my religion until I get mad and then you mock me.

quote:
I'm certain enough in my beliefs that other people questioning them doesn't bother me in the slightest
Then why are you bitching at me yet again today?

quote:
Christianity is blatantly false. Islam is blatantly false. Judaism, Hinduism, ancestor spirits and the Son of Sam are all blatantly false. If they weren't, they'd have something, anything at all, to back them up beyond praying and spirits and all of that hogwash.
Billions and billions of human beings all part of the same mass delusion. None of those sorceres, priests, yogis ever produced anything authentic because if they had you'd know about it? Like you knew about the Chechens? Like you know about the arabs?

quote:
I'm certain enough in my beliefs that other people questioning them doesn't bother me in the slightest, least of all people who want to snicker because I've never heard "the voice of god" in my head. Or had shivers run down my spine as "the holy spirit" entered me.
Most of the world's Christians have never been possesed by the Holy Spirit. That's only the norm for a minority of protestant called charasmatics. Even then I can't see the Pentacostals actually laughing at you for it.

You're not helping your case with building a straw man that's snickering at you.

quote:
*I* can't take it? Now that's a laugh, coming from someone who seemingly missed school the day they went over the "sticks and stones" couplet and what it meant. Trust me, I can take it just fine.
You very obviously can't take it. See also your words to Kid there. That sticks and stones cliche is a refuge of the verbally abusive anyway. Words do matter.

It's not so much that I object to your ideas because I find them offensive. I object to you thinking you have the right to be rude but you want yourself to be treated with respect. When you started off compamparing Islam to heroin and Christianity to cocaine are you seriously suggesting that you weren't trying to be offensive? Give me a break.


It's not like you're saying anyhting interesting about religion. You're trotting out a lot of old tired arguments, trying to score points with snark and mixed in a few nasty Islamaphobic stereotypes. I mean that old Gahndi quote? The beer and prostitutes line? (I suppose atheists might lead lives of reckless hedonism, but most of the ones I know are pretty conventional.) The repeated attempts to make me angry?

Very unimpressive. I don't know what you do know about,but religion and culture isn't it. Don't try and rebut me again with this sorry crap.

I will say this, you've gotten me to waste a lot of time and energy on you.

[ April 20, 2013, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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djquag1
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

They don't require a male guardian because they're not in Saudi Arabia. But hey, good for the Saudis, women are going to get to vote in 2015! What a smashing way to creep into the 20th century. That's assuming the religious extremists don't scare the King into changing his mind. Anyone want to take bets on that?

And yeah, Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women can't drive.

I don't think it's racism when the things stated are true, and I don't think it's racism when you point to a backwards country and say that those people are living in a primitive culture that treats it's women like dirt and teaches it's children that the Holocaust was just a good start. I've got no problems with Arabs; I have a problem with Arabs who act the way that Saudi Arabians do.

Then again, you've already proven that you have some awfully funny ideas on what constitutes racism. Speaking of which, that wasn't whining. You made a laughable argument for atheists being racists, and both Wayward and myself pointed out how and why that idea is stupid. Whining would be you saying that and me going

"Waaah, it's rude of you to say that, that offeeeends me!"

without giving any reason as to why the original statement was wrong.

I don't see how what I said to Kid helps you any. And no, I wasn't trying to be offensive to you. I subscribe to the religion is the opiate of the masses theory, and so the comparison was completely valid. Not everything is about you.

The beer and prostitutes bit was mocking you for your game over line, like you were some bro who had just made a game winning slam dunk.

No, the sorcerers, priests, yogis, and madmen aren't wrong because I don't know what they know. They're wrong because they've never, not once, given us evidence that could be replicated in the real world.

I've continued to *respond* to you because you have this weird idea that I'm in some way obligated to respect your beliefs because you believe them. Sorry, no.

Words only matter if people are immature enough to let other people's words affect them.

Oh, you're NOT one of those Christians. How lovely. You'll be showing us all that evidence for your god soon, then, right? *laughs* I know plenty about religion, sorry I never got to have a hallucination to convince me that it's true.

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djquag1
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Pete - I'll check out the Tao te Ching, and Shaw too, since I've never really read his stuff.

Any other suggestions? I'd prefer material that refers to real world stuff like how humans see the world, how they interact with each other, etc, over mysticism stuff. But if you think any of the latter is truly worthy I guess I can still take a gander.

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djquag1
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Yeah. You know what? I've been reading through this conversation.

And I'm sorry, Viking.

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's all hogwash, and I still think it's wrong for someone to demand that someone else not speak words that offend them. And the Saudis do treat their women like dogs. But the way I've been wording things has an unmistakeable undertone of ******* to it.

All I can say is that things in my life aren't great right now, I've been deeply depressed for what seems like an eternity, and I'm in a very dark place. Religion is very much an opiate in that it dulls pain and gives a sense of happiness, and I guess sometimes I grow jealous of that.

I apologize.

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AI Wessex
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All hail the "system" for an amazingly quick and clean resolution of figuring out who the bombers were and taking them down. I watched about an hour of coverage on TV last night where 100s of people stood in the street clapping for every police officer and ambulance that came by.

Given what we do and don't know about the bombers, I can't fathom what their purpose was or they could possibly have been thinking. Could there really be 5 dead so far, dozens maimed, hundreds injured and millions terrified just because they were "angry" at the world???

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Viking_Longship
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djquag

Appology accepted.

Just to clarify something, saying I have really loved the Saudis I know isn't the same as saying I endorse their government's policies or their version of Islam. The ones I know don't like a lot of that either.

I hope things get better for you.

[ April 20, 2013, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
All hail the "system" for an amazingly quick and clean resolution of figuring out who the bombers were and taking them down. I watched about an hour of coverage on TV last night where 100s of people stood in the street clapping for every police officer and ambulance that came by.

Given what we do and don't know about the bombers, I can't fathom what their purpose was or they could possibly have been thinking. Could there really be 5 dead so far, dozens maimed, hundreds injured and millions terrified just because they were "angry" at the world???

A substantial amount of the population really does carry around that sort of anger inside them, at some point. Fortunately we all have some sort of a inner restraint restraint keeps us for acting it out. As least all at once, some folks let it out in drips and drabs by getting a job at the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Others learn to channel and ritually vent their hate through the Westborough Baptists or the Southern Poverty Law. Center. To truly go off like a bomb, you need a special ideological script that rips all the restraints off.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag Religion requires belief in the supernatural without cause at it's very beginning, so me pointing out reality probably isn't going to do anything,
Some religion does require that initial belief.

Other religion requirez at the beginning no more that a desire to believe and a temporary suspension of disbelief. N

K,,,b-,-,,

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Funean
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quote:
some folks let it out in drips and drabs by getting a job at the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Okay, thanks for a much needed laugh this morning!
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AI Wessex
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"To truly go off like a bomb, you need a special ideological script that rips all the restraints off."

That's been your theme this thread for how people channel anger or hatred, but it's not the only one. Mass murders have been committed in the name of religious absolutism, racial hatred and plenty of other root causes. The fundamental question remains, what actually motivates someone to kill strangers indiscriminately? In other words, are these two terrorists?

I tend to think "causes" that are used to explain these kinds of acts are secondary to the urge to kill, which is an extreme emotional disposition, basically a psychosis. So far I don't see much difference between Timothy McVeigh, these two and Anders Breivik. They are all planned and coordinated "rampage murders".

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Pete - I'll check out the Tao te Ching, and Shaw too, since I've never really read his stuff.

Any other suggestions? I'd prefer material that refers to real world stuff like how humans see the world, how they interact with each other, etc, over mysticism stuff. But if you think any of the latter is truly worthy I guess I can still take a gander.

I am delighted that you'd check out my reading list. I'd recommend starting with the Sermon on the Mount, in the Bible, Matthew chapters 5 through 7. Find a translation that's comfortable to you. Most of it is about human interaction, some mystical, but in a fairly practical way.
Paul's discourse on love, 1 Corinthians chapter 13. An amazing discussion on what love is, and what it is not.

For insight into the nature of evil, I'd recommend Ayn Rand's epitaph to Marilyn Monroe. (I'm not a huge fan of her economic theories, but Rand's insights into the nature of evil are eye-opening).

For insights into the personality of the God that we Christians worship, I'd recommend the short Book of Jonah, in the Old Testament. Focus on the end of the story, which strangely is the part that fewest people have heard. From Jonah, I've come to believe that what many of us erroneously call "God's Wrath" is actually God's sense of humor. That doesn't make it less terrifying. I'm not sure if Jonah was meant to be read as a true story or as a parable, like the Good Samaritan; I personally read it as a parable that nonetheless correctly represents God's character, love, mercy, and terrifying sense of humor.

I'd love to hear your responses to any of these readings. I suspect you'll enjoy it.

Incidentally, there's nothing sequential that I've been able to detect about the Tao Te Ching. I think that #17 is my favorite.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"To truly go off like a bomb, you need a special ideological script that rips all the restraints off."

That's been your theme this thread for how people channel anger or hatred, but it's not the only one. Mass murders have been committed in the name of religious absolutism, racial hatred and plenty of other root causes. The fundamental question remains, what actually motivates someone to kill strangers indiscriminately? In other words, are these two terrorists?

I tend to think "causes" that are used to explain these kinds of acts are secondary to the urge to kill, which is an extreme emotional disposition, basically a psychosis. So far I don't see much difference between Timothy McVeigh, these two and Anders Breivik. They are all planned and coordinated "rampage murders".

Agreed on the grouping except for McVeigh. I add the Colombine murders to the group.

Like I said, the underlying rage is in a much broader group of the population than any of us would like to believe. That's arguably the "cause." Channeling the restraints on such behavior, requires some sort of job or role (such as working for the Gestapo or the DMV) that gives license to inhumanity. To create a rampage, you need an ideological script. The Unibomber and Breivik were intelligent persons who basically crafted their scripts out of whole cloth. Few people are that resourceful; most have to borrow or be handed a script. The Columbine killers adapted the script from a fictional show (the Matrix), seasoned it with a dash of Naziism and three cups of self-pity, and voila. Here, these idiot brothers bought the Islamic Fundamentalist license to kill. Evidence: shortly before going postal, one of them turned his wife into his 24/7 sharia bitch. They didn't make their own script, like Breivik and the Unibomber, nor did they patch one together like the Columbine wackos. They simply bought into the standard Al Qaeda package of BS that murder-suicide is a recipe for heaven, even if you're a loser.


(McVeigh OTOH created a delusion that he was actually at war with the United States government. He attacked an FBI headquarters, which seemed to him a legitimate military target. He saw civilians as regrettable "collateral damage," which would have been accurate if it was an actual war. Rather than murder, he should have been put to death for Treason, for making war on the United States, to which he owed a duty of loyalty.)

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
In other words, are these two terrorists?

Extremists, you mean there. Unless we can find evidence that they were specifically targeting an individual. A public bombing is a terroristic attack; those that carry it out are terrorists.

"What motivated them to terrorism?" is the question. (Did the older brother fall in with extremists when he visited Chechnya, and then drag his younger brother into is, perhaps not completely willingly? The bits and pieces of personal information that have come out suggest that could be a possible scenario here)

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Pete at Home
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"
"What motivated them to terrorism?" is the question."

the pop-islamoterrorist script

quote:
A YouTube account apparently set up by Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, suggested the elder bombing suspect was more interested in Islam than his 19-year-old brother, Dzhokhar.

It was set up in Tamerlan Tsarnaev's name in August -- three weeks after his return on July 17, 2012, from what travel records obtained by NBC New York indicated was a six-month overseas trip that began with a flight to Moscow.

A review of the YouTube page by NBC News found it included several Islamic extremist videos organized into two playlists -- "Islam," set up six months ago, and "terrorists," set up five months ago.

quote:
On the first playlist were videos featuring the Australian fundamentalist preacher Feiz Mohammed, who has been criticized for his misogynist views and calls to train children as jihadi warriors; a recitation from the Quran by a famous reciter, downloaded from a fundamentalist Islamic Center in Malmo, Sweden; and the last, posted two months ago, dedicated to the Black Banners of Khorasan, a prophecy of Islamic victory that is embraced by al Qaeda and other radical elements.
quote:
He also posted a long, stirring Islamic propaganda piece focusing on Bashar al-Assad’s brutality in Syria. Images of dead children, the siege of the city of Homs and government soldiers humiliating civilian detainees (both dead and alive) feature heavily in the piece, titled “Those With A Heart.” The video, which is accompanied by singing and chanting in Arabic, with Russian subtitles, ends with this written message: “Syria is calling – we will answer.” A third video called “Meeting between Fahda Ali Kandari and a blind boy” is a sentimental conversation between a possibly fictional Gulf Arab sheikh and a blind child.
quote:
His Twitter account showed he had tweeted 1,098 times, beginning on Oct. 11, 2011, and continuing through Tuesday, the day after the bombing of the Boston Marathon. It's a mix of tweets to and from friends, featuring typical youthful apprehension about life – such as "I just gotta get away from reality and dream a little" -- and quotes like one from Robert F. Kennedy: "Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not?'"

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Pete at Home
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Republicans urge treat Marathon Bomkin as "enemy combatant"

quote:
Top Republican senators urged President Obama on Saturday to hold the suspect captured in the Boston Marathon bombing as a potential enemy combatant -- denying him a government-appointed attorney and other legal rights under the “Law of War” so investigators can learn about other possible attacks.
Stupid idea. Sets a dangerous precedent and unnecessary. As of now, there's no compelling evidence of conspiracy; as far as we can tell, these idiots may have just bought the stupid Al Qaeda moral script.

quote:
After his capture Friday, bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was not read his Miranda rights, which essentially state those arrested have a constitutional right to be told information they give to officials can be used against them.
Fine. Interrogate him without a lawyer to catch others, but realize that means that you have to try him based only on information gained up to this point. Which IMO should be enough to cook him. Hell, since his brother died in the commission of a number of demonstrable felonies such as carjacking, that would be enough to put him to death on felony murder, even if there wasn't clear evidence tying him to the marathon bombing itself.

quote:
The American Civil Liberties Union expressed concern about Tsarnaev being questioned without being read his Miranda rights.

Group Executive Director Anthony Romero said Saturday the exception applies only when there's a continued threat to public safety and is "not an open-ended exception" to the Miranda rule.

Agreed that it's not open-ended. But the facts here do lead to a reasonable apprehension of continued threat to public safety. These kids seem to have acted under the influence of some mentor.

quote:
“The events we have seen over the past few days in Boston were an attempt to kill American citizens and terrorize a major American city,” Sens. Lindsey Graham, South Carolina; John McCain, Arizona; and Kelly Ayotte, New Hampshire, said. “The suspect, based upon his actions, clearly is a good candidate for enemy combatant status. We do not want this suspect to remain silent.”
Sigh. Is there a narrowly crafted exception into which this fits?

48 hours might be enough, if he's wounded enough to require sedation. It's considered "torture" to sedate someone in order to interrogate them, but if he's already being sedated for genuine medical purposes, that's IIRC the most effective form of interrogation under the sun, with half the brain switched off.

[ April 20, 2013, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pyrtolin
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Right- that why I noted the the current available information supports the idea that the older brother being radicalized (probably related to the trip he took in combination with the state of his life). It's still speculative, but it's a decent guess.

For the younger brother, things are much less clear. I'd be more willing to bet that his case that it was mostly family loyalty and a bit of ignorance of exactly what the scope of the plans were, and then outright panic once he realized he was in too deep.

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Pete at Home
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OK, so you see big brother as the Mohammed and little brother as his mini-me Malvo. That's a plausible theory.
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AI Wessex
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[Pete:] "To create a rampage, you need an ideological script, because you have a committed idea and a plan to act on it."

In that sense, religious pogroms, racial and ethnic cleansing are also "ideological".

[Pyrtolin:] "Right- that why I noted the the current available information supports the idea that the older brother being radicalized (probably related to the trip he took in combination with the state of his life). It's still speculative, but it's a decent guess."

I'm not convinced that we'll ever be able to say categorically what his/their motivation was. He was *exposed* to radicalizing ideas, but I came of age during the Vietnam War and participated very actively in a host of anti-war activities. It didn't make me a murderer, only passionate about trying to deal with a monstrous war through social, educational and political means. To kill in the name of an idea is itself a monstrous thing, but the idea is not the reason or a justification for a person to commit the crime. Perhaps it is the trigger or "accelerant" that unleashes uncontrolled impulses.

I take back what I said earlier. Breivik was a sociopath with a manifesto. I think Kaczynski was, too. Other mass murderers are simply pushed over the edge by some set of their life's conditions, but are fundamentally unstable to begin with, like in Aurora, Arizona, Texas and Virginia, among others. I think these two brothers will turn out to fall into that category, generally speaking, as there doesn't seem to be anything like a manifesto here.

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Pete at Home
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"religious pogroms, racial and ethnic cleansing are also "ideological"."

Religious pogroms, definitely. Racial and ethnic cleansing, usually, but at other times some might undertake that out of honest fear, e.g. in Kosovo where a previously tolerant group retaliated in the face of a decade of terrorism carried out by immigrants squatting on the land. Much like Native Americans reacting to white settlers encroaching on lands they considered historically theirs. Ethnic cleansing, but not necessarily an ideological script.

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LinuxFreakus
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I don't think I'll ever understand what it is about religion that people are attracted to. Not sure what else to say, but I do feel lucky to be alive after being right in the middle about 75 yards from each of the blasts.... (or whatever it was, that is about what it seemed visually)

I just don't know what we can do to stop the radicalization. Over time if society would question religion openly more than we do instead of just "respecting beliefs" it might help some people to change their views, but it isn't anything which can happen quickly.

[ April 20, 2013, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Pete at Home
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Ah yes. Less respect and less tolerance. That will do it. Are you sure you didn't get hit?
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