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Author Topic: America's complicity in the destruction of Middle Eastern Christianity
Viking_Longship
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Seagull

The little boys were already stoning the building and the soldiers weren't stopping them before the video got that far. If you want to argue that their orders make it hard for them to intervene, ok, but then don't try and tell us that in the first part of the video that was the exception to the rule.


My objection was that you wanted to focus all of the blame for the Palestinian's problems on radical muslims. If you are willing to admit that Israeli government policies and provactative behavior by the settlers is part of the problem then I have no further ojection.


quote:
Did you watch any of the real Btselem videos? There are enough awful things that are really being done by Israelis on those videos that we do not need propaganda like the clip you posted to muddy the water. That kind of propaganda only gives the ones who want to pretend that "it's not real" an excuse to discount the real abuses, call everything propaganda and sleep better at night without doing anything to make it better.

Ok so share some with us.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
If a person even posts something like this

Settlers Harrassing Palestinians

the rebuttle is usually that it's obviously an anti-semetic film, the poster is anti-semetic for linking to it, that it must be fake, or that Palestinian terror tactics somehow justify it.

No, that's not the response. One woman, sick of the terrorists, behaves badly in front of a camera almost a decade ago, and you people wave it around forever as though it's some sort of general trend. The fact that you have to use a clip that's that old is because that kind of thing almost never happens. God knows that if it did, your friends in the media would have it all over YouTube.
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Viking_Longship
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Lisa you can not imagine how little interest I have your persecution complex or your opinions in general.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
No, that's not the response. One woman, sick of the terrorists, behaves badly in front of a camera almost a decade ago, and you people wave it around forever as though it's some sort of general trend.

Did you watch the video? Because "one woman" is not how I would describe an large community of people harassing an Arab family. Also, "sick of the terrorists" is totally unconnected to anything in this video. The woman at the beginning speaks longingly about an ethnically "clean" neighborhood, which is the only content in the entire movie that speaks to motivation. Is this person known in some other context? I doubt that this video shows her in a completely fair light, but I'm also not ready to assume that her ugly behavior is totally based on legitimate grievances; not after she adoringly envisions an Arab-free Hebron.

quote:
The fact that you have to use a clip that's that old is because that kind of thing almost never happens. God knows that if it did, your friends in the media would have it all over YouTube.
[Confused] There is plenty of such content on Youtube that's very current. Not sure I've ever seen anything in this vein quite as chilling as this woman's sociopathic racism (which is probably why it still plays), but both sides of this conflict have scores of videos going up every day.

Also, Youtube is an alternative to traditional media. I assume that you are implying that our "liberal" media would promote anything that shows settlers in a poor light, but, if that were the case, it would be on television and radio, not Youtube. And its kind of a moot point, as U.S. media is inarguably pro-Israel.

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seagull
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Adam, US Media is pro-ratings, that's neither pro-Israel nor Pro-terrorist.

Dog bites man will never make the news.
Man bites dog usually would.

Reporters and Human rights organizations have much more access to events that go on under Israeli control than they do to events that happen in Arab countries.

When the media does get footage of things that make the Arabs look bad, it is irresponsible for them to do anything that would expose the source to retaliation by the local governments or mobs. Exposing the source of anti-Israeli footage is much less of a consideration because Israeli retaliation usually does not pose a threat to the life of the source whereas it is PLO and Hamas policy to deter bad publicity by occasionally killing someone to make an example.

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seagull
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Viking, I wrote a reply to your earlier post and for some reason it seems to have disappeared,

quote:
The little boys were already stoning the building and the soldiers weren't stopping them before the video got that far.
Little boys (both Arab and Jews) in those neighborhoods seem to be playing at "let's throw stones" instead of "cops and robbers" or "cowboys and Indians".

Would you criticize a policeman for not stopping a "cops and robbers" game? Would you expect him to arrest all the "robbers" so the "cops" can declare victory? If it was "cowboys and Indians" should he arrest the cowboys for starving the poor Indians or the Indians for being uncivilized savages?

quote:
don't try and tell us that in the first part of the video that was the exception to the rule
Viking, you seem to be taking everything at face value instead of realizing that both the Arabs and the Settlers in the first part of the Video were using the camera to boost their own agenda and that both of these agendas serve a common interest that is opposed to my interest.

Rather than tell you what that common interest is, I am wondering if you are capable of figuring it out on your own. If you have a blind spot that makes it impossible for you to see what they are trying to do, nothing I can say will make the blind spot go away.

quote:
you wanted to focus all of the blame for the Palestinian's problems on radical muslims.
Viking, I would appreciate it if you do not presume to tell me what I want. If there is something I said that leads you to jump to this incorrect and stereotyping conclusion, please go back and point out what it was so we can clear it up.


quote:
If you are willing to admit that Israeli government policies and provocative behavior by the settlers is part of the problem then I have no further objection.
I thought this was an informative discussion between friends who want to understand the situation better. If this was going to be about "objections" you must realize that Lisa has visited Israel (and specifically Hebron) and might do so again. From a practical viewpoint, I need to be more concerned with Lisa's "persecution complex" and opinions than I am with yours and I really don't want to take the discussion in that direction.

As a Jew living in Israel, I share some of the persecution complex (I'd be stupid not to) but - to the extent that it is a persecution complex rather than a valid fear, I do not expect you to cater to it. I do expect you to have a rational and on point discussion and to understand that the persecution complex (on both sides) plays a major role in the creation of any refugee problem (not only in Israel). This takes us back to the original title of this thread which you started.

Christians are fleeing from Syria (and parts of Iraq) because they are feeling persecuted. There are people on all sides (there are more than two) that are trying to manipulate the fears of the various populations to achieve a victory without a fight by creating more homogeneous neighborhoods.

Israel and the US are exceptions in their approach of encouraging a "melting pot" society. People in areas that are not ruled under Israeli or US law choose to "play" according to other rules and to educate their children to play games that train them to win in those circumstances.

I prefer the tolerant culture and laws of my two countries to that of the Arab, Chinese or Russian nations. Part of that tolerance however tells me that we should not tell those countries how to run their own lives as long as they do not interfere with our. I believe that having annexed East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, Israel has the right and responsibility to enforce our laws in those places.

But as long as the West Bank and Gaza are under military rule based on the historical Jordanian and Egyptian law respectively, we do not have the right or the responsibility to tell people who live there how to live their lives.

The Israeli military is there to prevent them from attacking us. If there were no rocket attacks, suicide bombers and lynch mobs, IDF soldiers would not have to risk their lives patrolling in the West Bank. If it were not for the fact that withdrawing from the West Bank would pose an immediate risk to the safety of Israel, I would let the settlers and Arabs fight each other to their heart's content until they reached their own equilibrium. If that is what they want to do, who am I to tell them to do otherwise and why should I (or the unfortunate soldiers in that video) have to be called in to referee their fights.

[ May 18, 2013, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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Viking: My question was:
Did you watch any of the real Btselem videos?
Your answer:
quote:
Ok so share some with us.
seems to indicate that you did not bother to follow the link I posted.
How can you claim to make an impartial analysis of the facts if you do not even look at them?

Do you expect me to do all the work and then have fun poking holes in what I say?

I really DO NOT KNOW if the video you posted was really created by Btselem or if the editing and subtitles were done by some propaganda organization that only used btselem's name to create an impression of false credibility. I was hoping that some of the people on this forum, might know of a way to figure out an answer to that question.

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djquag1
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The US media is a thousand percent pro-Israel. To deny this is ludicrous.

Also, and it's a shame that I have to correct apparent misassumptions, Arabs are not dogs. Likewise, it is wrong to hold Palestinians culpable for the crimes of all Arabs because they are from the same skin color. I've heard Congo has been up to no good, let's just bomb Kenya and call it a day, eh?

Writing incidents like that off as boys being boys is wrong. For one thing, were you ever been in a rock fight as a kid? Gotten hit in the head? It hurts. It causes property damage. Ignoring it as nothing also enforces that Arabs are second class citizens that have to put up with that, or leave.

Seagull, people tend to scoff at StarLisa because she sits over here in the comfort of the US and takes ridiculous and extreme suggestions on how to 'fix' things that would only make things worse. Except it gets claimed that it wouldn't be worse, because Israel is the bestest and Jews are the Chosen and God would save the day. Somehow.

The cherry on top is that the religious extremists that share most of her positions would likely stone her to death if given the opportunity.

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djquag1
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Also, when are Arabs going to get an equal place in this little melting pot of yours? Any non-Jews, for that matter?
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Pete at Home
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"Likewise, it is wrong to hold Palestinians culpable for the crimes of all Arabs because they are from the same skin color."

Arabs aren't all the same skin color; they range from white to brown, although for all their pretense of being non-racist they tend to consider someone non-Arab if one of them comes out too dark.

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Viking_Longship
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Pete so do we. I have a bother and sister from Saudi Arabia as students right now who look respectively like a young Cosby and a very young Whoopi Goldberg. When I look at them I don't think Saudi, despite her hijab. (He dresses like an American farmer.) You are correct though that Arabs have a very broad range in appearance.
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Viking_Longship
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Seagull

First of all the rock throwing is against the law in the USA. It's vandalism, or it would be if they hadn't put screens in front of the windows. Those boys would at the very least be getting a very serious talking to by the police if not doing a day or two in juvenile hall.

The title of this thread isn't "look this Youtube video tells you everything there is to know about the occupation." It's about the USA pursuing a policy in Iraq that disenfrancised the Christian population in spite of having been clearly warned that that was going to happen and then refusing to deal with the consequensces. It was also about our threatening to do likewise in Syria. Israel was only tangentially related until you posted your message attacking the US.

I really am not that interested in discussing Israel anymore. It never really leads to anything other than some Israeli trying to tell me how much I just don't get it.

Follow the link you posted and see where it goes. It's not to Btselem.

quote:
Do you expect me to do all the work and then have fun poking holes in what I say?

I really am not enjoying this. I don't find this at all fun.

Lisa's ideas for Israel would make it a pariah state while she lives safe and sound in the USA. (I've visted Belfast, that doesn't mean I have the qualifications to speak for the Irish or the Scots living there.) When I tell her I am not interested in her persecution complex that has zilch to do with you, Hannibal, Ricky, or any other actual Israeli.

[ May 18, 2013, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I really am not that interested in discussing Israel anymore.
That should be "I am not that interested in discussing Israel's internal affairs and relationship to the Palestinians. "
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seagull
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Viking, the link I posted to Btselem does go to Btselem.org.

I am also more interested in the Syrian refugee problem than in rehashing "Israel's internal affairs".

Iraqi Christians and Syrian refugees (of various background) are facing much more serious threats than vandalism. Are you suggesting that the people responsible for the massacres there should be getting a "very serious talking to" by US police (or army since it not in police jurisdiction)?

Should we put US soldiers "in harms way" in order to do that?

[ May 18, 2013, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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quote:
That should be "I am not that interested in discussing Israel's internal affairs and relationship to the Palestinians. "
Thank you.

Since that seems to imply that you are not completely disinterested in Israel, I would like to make a constructive suggestion.

Next time you are planning a vacation, consider coming to Israel as a tourist. It is a beautiful country and spending your vacation money here will not only be worth it - it will also help support the economy of both Israel and and the hard working honest Palestinians that need all the help they can get. As an added bonus, what you observe while you are here will make it easier for you to base your opinions on your own experience so you don't have to feel that "some Israeli [is telling you] how much I just don't get it" altough I am not sure it will stop us from "trying to tell you;)".

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Do you expect me to do all the work and then have fun poking holes in what I say?

I really am not enjoying this. I don't find this at all fun.
I think you do.

quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lisa's ideas for Israel would make it a pariah state while she lives safe and sound in the USA.

Bull. Half the world already questions Israel's very right to exist. I doubt kicking the Arabs out would make it worse. And once people saw the results, they might grudgingly begin to acknowledge that it was the right thing to do for everyone, including the Arabs.
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djquag1
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I'd happily visit Israel as a tourist, at the very least there are bound to be some interesting archeological sites to visit.

But, you know, boycott. And I'm poor. [Wink]

Someday, I hope.

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djquag1
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Point taken on the skin color. Replace it with, say, ethnic group. My point was it's wrong to hold a Palestinian responsible for what Syrians or Egyptians have done.
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Viking_Longship
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Lisa

quote:
Bull. Half the world already questions Israel's very right to exist. I doubt kicking the Arabs out would make it worse. .
And when you're wrong at least you won't be there to deal with the consequences.

quote:
And once people saw the results, they might grudgingly begin to acknowledge that it was the right thing to do for everyone, including the Arabs.
So a world you believe has it in for the Jews is going to suddenly see the wisdom of ethnic cleanising including Arab muslims who you say follow the toddler rules of ownership (If I play with it once its mine)?

This is why I'm not interested in your opinions, they don't even make sense in your reality, let alone the real world.

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Viking_Longship
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Seagull I appreciate the invitation. I would love to visit the holy land someday, but I don't see expensive transatlantic travel happening for me anytime soon.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Iraqi Christians and Syrian refugees (of various background) are facing much more serious threats than vandalism. Are you suggesting that the people responsible for the massacres there should be getting a "very serious talking to" by US police (or army since it not in police jurisdiction)?

Should we put US soldiers "in harms way" in order to do that?


I think we need to stop supporting the rebels financially and diplomatically and lean on our NATO allies to do likewise.

I don't think your country can serve as anything other than a point of transfer for refugees. The USA on the other hand can actually take a lot of them in. The Turks could as well and actually have some responsibility to do so, but it's hard to know what the idiots running that country now will do.

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seagull
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quote:
I think we need to stop supporting the rebels financially and diplomatically and lean on our NATO allies to do likewise.
I agree with you that we should not repeat the mistake we made in Afghanistan where we supposed Al-Qaeda because they were the enemy of our enemy.

But as long as we are talking about "STOPPING" things (like funding extremists or transfer of WMD to the hand of terrorists) rather than "DOING" something that will actually help the refugees, we are still abandoning them to a terrible fate.

I recently read on the news that the US passed a message to Hizbullah that if they attack Israel, Israel would bomb Lebanon back 50 years. I see how a deterrent like that may be necessary and even useful in that the warning could prevents a situation where Israel might be forced to do anything of the sort. But when I hear this kind of language, I think: so that's the stick, where is the carrot? What can we do to make them want to move in the right direction?

I wish I could think of some good answers.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lisa's ideas for Israel would make it a pariah state while she lives safe and sound in the USA. (I've visted Belfast, that doesn't mean I have the qualifications to speak for the Irish or the Scots living there.) When I tell her I am not interested in her persecution complex that has zilch to do with you, Hannibal, Ricky, or any other actual Israeli.

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm not saying anything different now from what I said while I was still living there. And my kids live there.
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djquag1
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Not quite a chicken.

Not quite a hawk.

It's a chickenhawk! You'll be both amazed and dismayed! On display at Ornery, for a limited time only. Get your tickets today!

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OrneryMod
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djquag: Please check your email.
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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Seagull, people tend to scoff at StarLisa because she sits over here in the comfort of the US and takes ridiculous and extreme suggestions on how to 'fix' things that would only make things worse.
I scoff even more at you because you're doing the exact same thing, telling to Israel what it should do, while you also live in the comfort of the US; and you don't even notice the hypocrisy of what you're doing when you are bashing starLisa over it.

Either only residents of Israel have the right to discuss Israel's policy or NOT. You can't bash starLisa because she does not live in Israel, WHEN YOU ****ING DON'T LIVE IN ISRAEL EITHER.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lisa's ideas for Israel would make it a pariah state while she lives safe and sound in the USA. (I've visted Belfast, that doesn't mean I have the qualifications to speak for the Irish or the Scots living there.) When I tell her I am not interested in her persecution complex that has zilch to do with you, Hannibal, Ricky, or any other actual Israeli.

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm not saying anything different now from what I said while I was still living there. And my kids live there.
Ok you have some skin in the game.

I'm still not interested in your opinions.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
I think we need to stop supporting the rebels financially and diplomatically and lean on our NATO allies to do likewise.
I agree with you that we should not repeat the mistake we made in Afghanistan where we supposed Al-Qaeda because they were the enemy of our enemy.

But as long as we are talking about "STOPPING" things (like funding extremists or transfer of WMD to the hand of terrorists) rather than "DOING" something that will actually help the refugees, we are still abandoning them to a terrible fate.

I recently read on the news that the US passed a message to Hizbullah that if they attack Israel, Israel would bomb Lebanon back 50 years. I see how a deterrent like that may be necessary and even useful in that the warning could prevents a situation where Israel might be forced to do anything of the sort. But when I hear this kind of language, I think: so that's the stick, where is the carrot? What can we do to make them want to move in the right direction?

I wish I could think of some good answers.

I don't think the US will offer Hezzbolah any carrots as long as it's allied with Iran. I don't think we'd care about Syria if Assad wasn't allied with Iran.

It would be nice if we could look at brokering a peace deal, but we'd have to retreat considerably from our current position to do so. I don't see that happening.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lisa's ideas for Israel would make it a pariah state while she lives safe and sound in the USA. (I've visted Belfast, that doesn't mean I have the qualifications to speak for the Irish or the Scots living there.) When I tell her I am not interested in her persecution complex that has zilch to do with you, Hannibal, Ricky, or any other actual Israeli.

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm not saying anything different now from what I said while I was still living there. And my kids live there.
Ok you have some skin in the game.

I'm still not interested in your opinions.

Like I give a crap. The world doesn't revolve around you or the Tourette's case calling himself djquag1.
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Viking_Longship
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Lisa feel free not to comment I things I post henceforth.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Lisa feel free not to comment I things I post henceforth.

You must realize that I don't take instructions from you, right? I'll comment on whatever I see fit to comment on. If it's some sort of drivel that came from your direction, I may do so simply so that said drivel shouldn't go uncontested. I understand that you don't care what I say, and I think you get that I don't care what you think.
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Viking_Longship
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Lisa

quote:
I may do so simply so that said drivel shouldn't go uncontested.
I think this community is smart enough to know drivel when they see it without you contesting it.

Please find somebody else to bother.

[ May 21, 2013, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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I am not interested in dramatic declarations about each others' opinions. These exchanges seem rather pointless, and seem to provoke confrontation rather than inviting each other to get out of each others' faces ... which seems to be the purpose of such remarks.
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seagull
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quote:
I don't think the US will offer Hezzbolah any carrots as long as it's allied with Iran. I don't think we'd care about Syria if Assad wasn't allied with Iran.

It would be nice if we could look at brokering a peace deal, but we'd have to retreat considerably from our current position to do so. I don't see that happening.

I don;t think any of the things you mention in that quote are even close to being an option (much less a rational one). If those are the only "carrots" you can think about in response to my post, it seems that you have a HUGE blind spot.

Can you figure out what I am talking about?

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Viking_Longship
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Seagull

I didn't mention "things" I mentioned one thing I don't think is going to happen.

I can't really think of much the US can offer Hezbollah as a carrot. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear them, as in this case I freely admit you know more than I do.

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seagull
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I can't think of much the US or Israel can offer Hezbollah either. Offering bribes to the people who hold the refugees as hostages will only encourage them to do more, so they can get even more bribes.

Is Hezbollah the only organization that you think we could offer carrots to?

Have you considered offering carrots to people who can actually help the refugees instead?

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Viking_Longship
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seagull well since you were talking about Hezbollah I presumed that's who you were talking about offering carrots to.

THe carrot would depend on the country that took the refugees in, but I think the main thing I can see us doing is ensuring the refugees don't stay there. Their are countries that could absorb something like this, but none of them are in Syria's imediate vicinity.

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seagull
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quote:
none of them are in Syria's imediate vicinity
I happen to disagree. When Lebanon had a Christian majority, Beirut was a flourishing city and the standard of living was high. Now that it is controlled by Hezbollah, the Lebanese Christians are not doing as well and the whole country is going down the drain.

Lebanon may actually be better off with more Christians not to mention the fact that they speak the same language and belong to the same (Arab) nationality.

In terms of resources it would be much easier to help the Lebanese Christians absorb the refugees than to try to ship them to other countries and have to deal with the culture shock on top of everything else they have had to live through.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
quote:
none of them are in Syria's imediate vicinity
I happen to disagree. When Lebanon had a Christian majority, Beirut was a flourishing city and the standard of living was high. Now that it is controlled by Hezbollah, the Lebanese Christians are not doing as well and the whole country is going down the drain.

Lebanon may actually be better off with more Christians not to mention the fact that they speak the same language and belong to the same (Arab) nationality.

In terms of resources it would be much easier to help the Lebanese Christians absorb the refugees than to try to ship them to other countries and have to deal with the culture shock on top of everything else they have had to live through.

The whole reason Lebanon was created was in order to give Syrian Christians a country. Syria was partitioned into Syria and Lebanon. Syria was supposed to be for Muslims, and Lebanon was supposed to be for Christians. And while the Christians welcomed Muslims in Lebanon, the converse was not true in Syria. And now, they're both Muslim countries.

Sort of a preview of what Israel will face if it's ever stupid enough to allow a Palestinian state.

http://lamrot-hakol.blogspot.com/2010/07/tale-of-two-insanities.html

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Viking_Longship
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Seagull

Okay if you think they can absorb the extra population.

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