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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Feiglin on Iran, Arab Spring, US aid, and more (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Feiglin on Iran, Arab Spring, US aid, and more
djquag1
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Get bent, Lisa. I don't have a problem with Jews. I have a problem with Jews like you. Of the four on this site alone, you're the only one that fits that category. That doesn't make me a bigot, no matter how much the idea sends tingles up your persecution complex.
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D.W.
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And here I thought I may have missed out on something interesting spending the last couple of days arguing about space ships for a game that isn't going to be released for over a year...

I somehow feel better now about my chosen means of spending time "debating" online. [Smile]

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Hannibal
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D.W

What game?

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D.W.
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Star Citizen / Squadron 42

www.robertsspaceindustries.com

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Viking_Longship
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Hannibal did you complete your MBA?
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D.W.
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[Smile] Do your homework first. Then you can play.
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Viking_Longship
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DW that's not what I meant. [Razz]
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Hannibal
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Yes, I graduated on May 20th. Offically a Master in Business Administration from the "Yalensis Universitatis"
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seagull
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quote:
That doesn't make me a bigot
ROTFL,
He's right you know.
That doesn't make him a bigot.
It's being a bigot that makes people like him say all those funny things (like denying that they are bigot when someone makes a generic statement about bigots).

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Viking_Longship
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Lisa specifically called him a bigot.

[ May 24, 2013, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Greg Davidson
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Bud, I am an Jewish American voter who strongly believes that President Obama has been better for Israel than George W Bush was, and better than John McCain or Mitt Romney would have been. And I am educated on Obama's policies.
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seagull
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Viking: djquag1 denied being a bigot long before Lisa entered the discussion .
quote:
Screw you.

And if not for language rules here, the word would not be screw.

I am not a bigot

In my experience, people who are not bigots do not need to curse people they disagree with and then go around denying that they are bigots.

[ May 25, 2013, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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The quote above which was explicitly directly at me seems to indicate that Lisa is not the only Jew he has a problem with.

djquag1:
quote:
I don't have a problem with Jews. I have a problem with Jews like you. Of the four on this site alone, you're the only one that fits that category.
I know, I know both Lisa and I are paranoid - we are Jewish after all - we'd have to be stupid not to be paranoid. But there are millions of other Jews (some of them stupid enough not to be paranoid) that he is calling for a boycott against. And he does not seem to care that his boycott also hurts a million of my Israeli Arab neighbors whose only crime is that they do not want to kill Jews as much as the PLO and Hamas do.

[ May 25, 2013, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Viking_Longship
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seagull

Djquag can take it from here if he wants.

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djquag1
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quote:
Originally posted by seagull:
Viking: djquag1 denied being a bigot long before Lisa entered the discussion .
quote:
Screw you.

And if not for language rules here, the word would not be screw.

I am not a bigot

In my experience, people who are not bigots do not need to curse people they disagree with and then go around denying that they are bigots.
What an interesting way of looking at things. Allow me to attempt to remove the laxative from your bovine's diet, however.

quote:
djquag1's suggestion that a Kurdish nation should follow the US as a role model after the way we treated them in Iraq sounds bigoted to anyone who has any understanding or sympathy to the feelings of refugees and victims of ethnic cleansing and it was those comments that my satirical diatribe was directed against
After which, of course, I told you to go screw yourself.

Whether you want to admit it or not (though you've already admitted to being prone to jump at shadows) disagreeing with Israel's settlement building or their treatment of their second class ethnicity isn't bigotry. Never has been, never will be.

I disagree with you strongly, Seagull, on most of this stuff. But at least Hannibal and to a lesser extent, you, are willing to discuss this stuff without your first stance being that all Arabs are evil. In other words, you're not fundamendalist, which are the type I was talking about disliking. RickyB is right in what he thinks, and none of the Jews I know in the real world seem to have a hard on for ejecting brown people from their homes so that their friends can move in.

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seagull
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quote:
ejecting brown people from their homes so that their friends can move in.
I am getting tired of this "ejecting brown people" accusation.

I may not be brown myself, but most of my fellow Israeli Jews are brown people descended from Jews who were ejected from Arab countries shortly after 1948. The mostly white Israeli Jews of my grandparents' generation welcomed them home to Israel when that happened. When some Arab people (who became Palestinian refugees) were ejected from Israel at about the same time, it was not because they were brown, it was because people were shooting at us from their homes. The ones who did not allow our enemies to shoot at us from their homes were welcome to stay.

The fact that there are a million "brown" Arab citizens of Israel who do not want to live in any other country is proof that it is not Israeli policy to eject people from their homes because they are brown.

The fact that the Palestinian refugees from 1948 were still living in refugee camps in 1967 when Israel got control of the west bank and Gaza is proof that the plight of these war zone refugees has more to do with how other Arabs treated them than it does with Israeli policy.

I was at a graduation ceremony of IDF medics last week. Part of their oath of service is to provide medical assistance to the sick and injured "whether they are friend or foe". I know that there are many Arabs in the medical profession who feel the same way, but I am wondering if any Arab military organizations include that credo in their formal oaths of service and if Organizations like the PLO, Hamas, Hizbullah, and the Muslim brotherhood would not insist on expunging such phrases whenever they get political control.

Oh, by the way, about 10% of the IDF soldiers at that ceremony were black (much darker than brown). Many of them are first generation refugees from Ethiopia and Sudan and their military service is part of their integration process into Israeli society. Some of them may still feel out of place in Israel because of cultural differences but by law and by national consensus they have the same rights as all other citizens.

I expect that their children will be so fully integrated into Israeli society that feeling like "second class citizens" will sound just as preposterous to them as it does to the brown Israeli Jews of this generation. Black Jews are less than 10% of the population here so statistically most of their children will be lighter than their black parents.

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Bud Martin
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Greg,

Here is the rest of that post:

Do you support the state of Israel and its right to exist?

Do you feel that Israel is threatened by radical Muslim advances in Libya, Lebanon, Mali, Egypt, Syria and Turkey, and possibly Jordan in the next 3-6 months?

[There is talk that the King of Jordan might be overthrown because of the situation in Syria.]

Do you think Obama assisted or aided the Arab Spring uprisings in the Middle East?

Do you feel like Obama has supported the Israeli leadership’s decisions while he has been in office?

Do you feel that Obama has pressured, threatened or attempted to intimidate internal Israeli policies or decisions?

Has Obama ever acted disrespectful towards the state of Israel?

I would also love to hear from any member on the Forum on these issues, both left and right.

For purposes of answering Greg's statement earlier in this thread, could any Israeli or Jewish member please let me know of your affiliation if you choose to answer these questions; that is if you aren't worried about making that known. I just want to particularly get responses from you and understand your viewpoints on these issues since you likely have the most pertinent understanding of these questions.

[ May 25, 2013, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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djquag1
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Seagull - Israel isn't free from racism, even against those it claims as it's own. The birth control scandal recently with the Sudanese or Somalians (can't remember which one) comes to mind.

Okay, so they're not ejected solely for not being brown, that's an admittedly cheap rhetorical trick. They're ejected for not being Jewish, and Jewish people move in to take their place.

You ready to walk back on your claim that I'm obviously a bigot because I yell out how I'm not a bigot when nobody's calling me that?

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djquag1
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Bud -

I support the right of the state of Israel to exist. I don't support most of the policies it has now, and if it were 1945 instead of 2013 I wouldn't support establishing or recognizing it.

I don't think recent jihadist advannces, exaggerated or not, are an existential threat. Israel is more then capable of taking care of itself, and if at any point it wasn't, I'm quite sure Uncle Sam would rush in to help it out.

I think Obama offered moral support to the Arab Spring uprisings, as well he should have. Democracy isn't a guarantee of civil rights and freedom and such, but it is one of the necessary first steps. That we don't like who they choose to elect isn't relevant to whether democracy coming to some of those countries is a good thing. Other then Syria, I think most of the results have been positive.

It's not Obama's job to support Israel. I think he's been supportive in some things, and not supportive in others. Could that be seen as pressure? Sure, but considering how much they get from us, how much influence Israel has on our government, and most of the world seeing Israel as either America's master or it's fifty first state, a little pressure to not follow through on their stupidest ideas is a good thing.

I don't think Obama has disrespected Israel, no. Disagreement does not equal disrespect, and there are born and bred Israelis who are to the left of Obama on the whole issue.

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Greg Davidson
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I support the right of Israel to exist

Israel faces some level of threat from radical Muslim extremists, but I do not feel that the threat is particularly focused on the next 3-6 months. I believe that, while we are in a time of some risk due to instability, Israel is on a lower risk path due to the change in status quo. My analysis of the growth of Islamic radicalism is that it was funded in order to distract the Arab street from the rising wealth imbalance following the 1973 oil embargo. It is a common historical practice to incite racial and sectarian hatred as a distraction from internal economic and political problems (a similar example can be seen in Milosevic's actions following the collapse of Yugoslavia). A net consequence of the Arab Spring revolutions is that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood have to deal with issues like food prices and can't just focus on fomenting hostility towards Israel. A similar dynamic can be seen in Iran - I don't have a direct source of evidence, but I would suspect that more Iranians have their strongest level of hatred focused on a government that has killed their friends and relatives than they do on Israel.

I think that Obama provided an appropriate and diplomatically effective level of support to the Arab Spring (and Iranian) uprisings. The challenge of the US diplomatic position is that too much US support can negatively impact the very groups that the US would like to support. Also, these are not easy decisions to make. The Afghani freedom fighters that the US supported in the late 1980's turned into the Taliban that we are fighting today.

I believe that Obama has not supported a number of decisions of the Israeli leadership while he has been in office, and that Obama has pressured internal Israeli politics. I am glad that he has opposed those decisions - I believe that the Netanyahu Governments have been acting in opposition to American interests due to satisfy extremists into his coalition. I don't believe that Israel deserves special treatment that is better than any other American ally, and on occasion the American President is allowed to take positions consistent with American interests as he sees fit. On the latter point, I believe that his level of involvement in Israeli internal politics is far lower than Netanyahu's involvement in American internal politics.

I wonder a bit at the basis of the question "Has Obama ever acted disrespectful towards the state of Israel?" What are the standards of respect? Are we going to judge based on what the judged person does (Obama, in your example) or how the other people feel (Israel in you example)? There have been considerable efforts to create adverse narratives about Obama (starting with him being a Black radical Muslim Socialist and moving on from there). Generally, Obama is a very cautious and respectful speaker. But there have been efforts to characterize his comments and actions to maximize the perceived sense of disrespect and outrage. I suspect some people feel that Obama has acted disrespectfully towards Israel. I hold a different view-point, but depending on how you define the standards for determining the question, the answer could be "yes" or "no". I would ask you to use whatever definition you determine is appropriate, and then identify what fraction of Obama's opponents have been "disrespectful" to him as per the same standard.

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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
I don't think recent jihadist advannces, exaggerated or not, are an existential threat. Israel is more then capable of taking care of itself, and if at any point it wasn't, I'm quite sure Uncle Sam would rush in to help it out.

And I'm quite sure the US would not. Certainly not under this president. Hell, they wouldn't even help their own people out in Libya. You think they'd do better for us?
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seagull
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quote:
Do you support the state of Israel and its right to exist?
Israel has a right to exist that is independent of my support or anyone else on this Forum or elsewhere. Israel's right to exist was recognized by the UN in 1947. If/when the UN decides to withdraw that recognition, that would reflect more on the abomination of the UN than it does on Israel.

My support for Israel's existance (which is a different topic from it's right to exist) is expressed by the fact that I served in the IDF and still help to support it's military industries which are here to make sure that Israel does not have to depend on international aid to defend itself.

quote:
Do you feel that Israel is threatened by radical Muslim advances in Libya, Lebanon, Mali, Egypt, Syria and Turkey, and possibly Jordan in the next 3-6 months?
The growing instability in Syria and Lebanon is a definite threat to Israel. I do not believe that it is an existential threat but I do think it things go wrong, hundreds or thousands of Israelis may die as a result from their attacks and that could happen in the next 3-6 months.

Islamic extremists are hiding in the Sinai desert and are using it to launch attacks against both Israel and Egypt. As a result, the Egyptian military has been violating the peace treaty with Israel in which they committed to keep the Sinai demilitarized. This was not happening under Sadat and Mubarak and I suspect that the Moslem brotherhood government are actually glad for the excuse to bring their army closer to the border but I do not think the threat to Israel from that direction is going to mature in the next 3-6 months.

As far as I know Lybia and Mali are too far away and have enough other problems that they are not major threats to Israel. As far as Lybia is concerned, a few disorganized mob demonstrations with chants against Israel are not big news (we do not have an embassy in Lybia to worry about). The threat to Israel from Lybia is much smaller than it was when Ghadafi gave organized and well funded support for terror organizations that targeted Israelis and Jews all over the world.

Jordan is not a threat to Israel and the radical Islamists in Jordan are a common enemy of both Israel and the Jordanian government. If Jordanian moderates ever need Israel's support, I would hope that Israeli politicians will be brave and honest enough to give them the support they ask for but there is a good chance that we would not hear about it for years to come because open support from Israel could undermine them in the rest of the Arab world.

quote:
There is talk that the King of Jordan might be overthrown because of the situation in Syria.

When Syria tried to depose the King's father in 1970, Israeli forces mobilized on the Syrian border and Israeli air patrols made it unsafe for the Syrian airforce to intervene. This allowed the Jordanian airforce to repel the Syrian ground attack and finish sweeping up the PLO militants within Jordan.

quote:
Do you think Obama assisted or aided the Arab Spring uprisings in the Middle East?
The US state department (under all US presidents) has such a shallow understanding of Arab and middle East political forces that what they (and Obama) is a joke. The blundering errors that they occasionally make are to random to qualify for the words "assistance or aid".

quote:
Do you feel like Obama has supported the Israeli leadership’s decisions while he has been in office?
Obama's first term was not good for Israel. But that is not surprising. First term US presidents and their administration always take a few years to learn the ropes and Israel always has to suffer through that. Second term US presidents are always better for Israel because after four years in office they know from first hand experience that the PLO and Hamas are not interested in peace and can not be trusted.

quote:
Do you feel that Obama has pressured, threatened or attempted to intimidate internal Israeli policies or decisions?
I am sure he has, but we'll never know how because both governments have an interest to keep it quiet.
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Bud Martin
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First off, I think I should answer my own questions for you to compare:

Do you support the state of Israel and its right to exist? Absolutely and I am a great admirer of the IDF and its military history and prowess.

Do you feel that Israel is threatened by radical Muslim advances in Libya, Lebanon, Mali, Egypt, Syria and Turkey, and possibly Jordan in the next 3-6 months? YES: BTW, the 3-6 months was supposed to only pertain to Jordan, I screwed up that question a little. I would say definitely, since there is a good chance that Hezbollah will obtain some weapons of mass destruction and Russian missiles will make it into Syria. Libya is providing Al Qaeda operatives to the region and they have been shipping in some shoulder fired missiles. Mali is providing a few fighters/manpower to Al Qaeda through “Ansar al Sharia”.

[There is talk that the King of Jordan might be overthrown because of the situation in Syria,] This was listed as a possibility in 3-6 months and depends on if they can assassinate the King. As long as he survives, they could keep him in power.

Do you think Obama assisted or aided the Arab Spring uprisings in the Middle East? Yes, he made speeches addressed to the Muslims and provided CIA operatives to move information and to give computer support and he provided military support to the Libyan conflict. He turned his back on Mubarak and openly suggested that Turkey might be needed in organizing the Muslim responses to issues in the Middle East.

Do you feel like Obama has supported the Israeli leadership’s decisions while he has been in office? No, he demanded that new settlements stop in the West Bank and refused to meet with Netanyahu on several occasions to discuss issues.

Do you feel that Obama has pressured, threatened or attempted to intimidate internal Israeli policies or decisions? Obama has tried repeatedly, but has only had success in a few issues and actually was forced by pressure in the US, to visit Israel and be more co-operative.

Has Obama ever acted disrespectful towards the state of Israel? Yes, Obama consistently made derogatory remarks about Israel and demanded that Israel return to pre 1967 borders that are completely indefensible .

[ May 26, 2013, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Yes, Obama consistently made derogatory remarks about Israel...
Like what?
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AI Wessex
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"Certainly not under this president. Hell, they wouldn't even help their own people out in Libya. You think they'd do better for us?"

You're referring to the debunked claims that the WH told the military not to help at Benghazi?

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Bud Martin
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From Jeffrey Goldberg, Bloomberg View:

quote:
In the weeks after the UN vote, Obama said privately and repeatedly, “Israel doesn’t know what its own best interests are.”

PRIME MINISTER UNSHAKEN BY OBAMA’S CRITICISMS: Sources close to Israel’s prime minister said Netanyahu brushed off US President Obama’s recent derogatory comments – one of which was that “Israel doesn’t know what’s good for it.”

Let's see you impeach this guy's liberal credentials.

Any President that would seek to force Israel to the pre-'67 borders is being derogatory to the Israeli people. Any President that snubs the Prime minister of Israel by leaving him alone in the middle of a long scheduled meeting for over an hour and snidely tells him to "Let me know if anything changes" after presenting demands in a written document, is being derogatory to the State of Israel.

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Greg Davidson
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Bud,

What limitations do you believe that all American Presidents should have in criticizing the actions of allies with whom we have a disagreement? Since Israel does not deserve better treatment than all other American allies, what prohibitions would you impose on all Presidents with respect to comments on the policies of our allies?

And do you believe that the Israel Prime Minister should be similarly bound not to make comments critical of the United States?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Any President that would seek to force Israel to the pre-'67 borders is being derogatory to the Israeli people. Any President that snubs the Prime minister of Israel by leaving him alone in the middle of a long scheduled meeting for over an hour and snidely tells him to "Let me know if anything changes" after presenting demands in a written document, is being derogatory to the State of Israel.
Why do you feel this way?
It seems to me that not agreeing with Israel's positions counts as being "derogatory." Why is this?

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Bud Martin
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Greg,

Diplomatic relations between any nations, regardless of their status as an ally are a very complex and delicate process that should never be treated with disdain. Just from a very limited and simple perspective it is possible to apply common sense rules to the diplomatic mission that the US and by extension the President must engage in; and the only limitation is to never break protocol while being polite even in the face of heated disagreement. These observances that I'm presenting as an opinion could not truly encompass the enormous nature and responsibility of the State Department in providing the President with the tools to manage foreign relations adequately.

A President shouldn't publically or privately embarrass and insult any ally at any time, regardless if he has a disagreement with them. He absolutely should never use bad manners to personally shame another nation's leader as it shames our entire nation in the eyes of the civilized world. If we have a disagreement with any nation, not just an ally, we should meet and discuss the differences in a civilized manner observing all proper social and diplomatic etiquette until such time that there are no relations and the disagreement goes to the next level of conflict management that assumes the diplomatic relations no longer exist.

I DO think Israel deserves special treatment, but that is an entirely different issue.

A President should fairly and openly report on a disagreement (assuming all other diplomatic channels have been exhausted in an attempt to resolve the disagreement) with an ally to the Legislative branch of the government once the Executive branch has deemed that the situation needs further actions (only if there is an impasse that requires taking actions that might change, effect or otherwise damage those relations with that ally) and when he thinks it’s appropriate (some issues are time critical while others are not). He should fairly lay out the reasoning for his disagreement in a civilized manner and then take stock of other leaders of Congress and the Senate that represent the American people (in some cases he should also look to expert advisers outside of the government or even outside the Country when it is warranted).

If he is constantly in touch with the leaders of the Congress and Senate, then this is an easy task. If he isolates himself, appoints biased narrow minded ideologues to government positions that are supposed to advise him, and doesn’t listen to the voices of all the leaders from both sides of the political spectrum, then he could make bad decisions that are not respected and possibly impeachable. This also assumes that the President realizes where the line is drawn between our national interests and an Ally’s national interests.

I would hold every nation and especially an ally to act according to the same set of common sense rules of proper treatment of other countries when carrying out foreign relations.

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Pete at Home
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Bud, I agree, but in this case Netanyahu started the discourtesy game.
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Bud Martin
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Greg,

There is no possible way for Israel to exist as a nation going back to pre-'67 borders considering the enemies they face in this day and age. It would be totally indefensible for them to provide security for their people.

The Palestinians (primarily HAMAS) are terrorists NOW and the President is trying to make concessions to them for WHAT REASON - so they won't be more terroristic towards others... that seems like blackmail to me. To suggest that possibility considering the situation in the Middle East shows disdain for the Israeli people and their plight to remain a free and democratic people.

BTW, the Palestinians and their allies have lost every battle and every conflict they've ever fought against Israel even with tremendous advantages, numerical superiority and even when they attacked without warning from all sides; and they have resorted to terrorism because they have lost their allies, been ostracized by their own Muslim brothers and killed any of their own people that wanted to compromise, YET you still think the President should make concessions to these same people that turn their own children into hate mongers and suicidal maniacs using cartoons and brainwashing techniques.

Do you really think the President should reward them for their actions; I think that's unreasonable.

I don't think that disagreeing with Israel's position is derogatory, but the proposals and manners he has used towards Israel shows his disdain for their cause and are examples of his derogatory nature towards them. I think of his complete personality as derogatory towards anyone that disagrees with him for any reason also.

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Bud Martin
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Pete you might be right, but two wrongs don't make a right. The US should remain above petty brinkmanship before it leads to disasterous results. I would like to find out what Netanyahu thinks about that too.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
he could make bad decisions that are not respected and possibly impeachable
What foreign policy decisions could a president make which you'd consider to be impeachable (assuming you don't mean outright treasonous ones)?
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Bud Martin
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Tom,

By impeachable, I just mean the actions themselves, not the President. That would be another issue entirely.

What I was referring to might be something like the President refusing to sell Israel necessary military supplies, like replacement parts, and then the Congress and Senate over-riding that decision thru legal measures.

[ May 26, 2013, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Bud Martin
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Tom,

I'd like to clarify a statement I made. I said in a few posts above "There is no possible way for Israel to exist as a nation going back to pre-'67 borders considering the enemies they face in this day and age." This is a result of the weapon systems that are used in conflicts today that are far faster reaching their target and far more lethal than weapon systems in the 1948 era. It would be impossible, considering these types of weapons to defend the civilian population with such a convoluted porous border.

We've seen how Hamas has dug tunnels to import more lethal weapon systems, tried to sneak weapons in thru the sea and tried to use the Sinai to launch attacks from Egyptian territory; under those pre-'67 borders there would be no way to prevent massive smuggling of new weapons into the area.

There are no possible assurances that can be made that would guarantee any Palestinian agreement would not be broken no matter how generous the President tried to be to them.

Maybe Seagull would know how much more difficult it would be for the Iron Dome system to protect civilians from multiple threats at a much closer range from several directions simultaneously.

[ May 26, 2013, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
The Palestinians (primarily HAMAS) are terrorists NOW
Here is the heart of our disagreement. This phrasing appears to indicate that you believe that all Palestinians are terrorists. If you accept that as a premise, it results in a very different set of conclusions. I just disagree with your premise. If you disagree with that premise, could you state more clearly what proportion of the Palestinians you believe should be treated as if they were terrorists?

[ May 27, 2013, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Greg Davidson
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Bud,

Critical opinions about Obama's attitude towards Israel are often based on the fictitious Obama created by his political opponents. As evidence of this, I cite the reaction to Obama making a typical Obama-like speech recently in Israel


quote:
Up until this visit, Israelis attributed anti-Israel worldviews to Obama. These accusations were groundless. Nonetheless, they had gained a foothold in some parts of public opinion. That story is over. Obama is no longer a hater of Israel. In the eyes of the Israelis who found it hard to agree with some of what he said, he is now a friend, albeit a naive one …
link
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Bud Martin
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Greg,

I'm just looking at the facts. Hamas is on the list of US terrorist groups and rules over Gaza that has about 30% of the Palestinian population. It engages in almost constant attacks against the civilian population of Israel.

The Hamas Charter states their objective is the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian Muslim nation (preamble and Article 6). It includes such articles as the death of all Jews with their anti-Semitic reasoning for it (article 7, Article 22 and Article 32), the rejection of any agreements already made by other Palestinian organizations with Israel (Article 13), and the call to Jihad against the Jews and Israelis (Article 15 and Article 33).

In the last complete Palestinian election in 2006 they won 56% of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) seats, a clear majority that would have allowed them to form their government without any compromises with the Fatah party. That was before the Hamas v Fatah civil war, Battle for Gaza and the sanctions levied against the PA by the US and Israel. The sanctions were eventually dropped by the Bush administration without meeting the pre-conditions that were supposed to include:

Renunciation of violence,
Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as had the PLO), and
Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority

I see Hamas controlling over a third of the Palestinian population and supported by at least half of all the Palestinian People and it has the stated goal of NEVER compromising or living peacefully with Israel, killing all the Jews in a Holy Jihad and they even state that they’ll make pretense to get their two state solution that might last up to 20 years before they will finish their conquest of the rest of Israel and therefore I consider most of the Palestinians as Terrorists.

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Bud Martin
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Greg,

You know that Obama's speech in Israel was given to a selective audience of college kids and that they didn't invite any students that were from the right. Your comments come from a very Liberal news source in Israel and don't reflect the opposition opinion at all. It also looks like the Israeli left fell for Obama's Hope and Change rhetoric just like the students in the US did.

Some Israelis still can't forget Obama's bowing to the Saudi King or his seeming apology tour that included his support for another terrorist tied organization - the Muslim Brotherhood, his demands effecting Israeli policies, and rude treatment of their leader.

Here are some more sobering opinions of Obama's speech from the other side of the political Spectrum:

quote:
“Too Good To Be True” by Shalom Yerushalmi, published on page 2 of Ma’ariv, says … “. . . we should make no mistake: There are no free gifts and no gestures without interests. Obama made two high jumps here. He spoke to the Israeli public over the government’s head. He went to the US Congress over the Israeli public’s head. He used feel-good diplomacy on the Israelis. We are not coming to coerce you as we had in the past, he announced. We are coming to learn, to understand, but you should know that an arrangement with the Palestinians is in your interest and in the interest of the Jewish people. … This morning, Obama will go to Ramallah to meet with Abu-Mazin. At one point, peace with the Palestinians burned in his bones. The great fights with Netanyahu focused on that. This time Obama came to Israel without a prepared foreign policy plan, and also without making a ‘big announcement,’ as he admitted. Is this a new approach that is uncharacteristic of the administration, one that attests to the failure of the previous initiatives? Did the energetic secretary of state, John Kerry, come here in advance just to waste time, like most of his predecessors? Or is this a different tactic, in which someone has smeared honey on plastic spoons that will one day return to being sharp knives? After all, this all seems too good to be true.” (Tel Aviv Ma’ariv in Hebrew — Independent, centrist, third-largest circulation Hebrew-language daily)

quote:
Josh Briner reports in leading news website Walla! in Hebrew at 1714 GMT on the statement issued by the Yesha Settlement Council: “President Obama’s speech was warm and embracing, but at the same time he tried to create an illusion of public support for developments that are dangerous to Israel. We believe this is the reason no students from Ari’el University [on the West Bank] were invited. Israelis have experience with illusions that blew up in our face, and will not support the dangerous offers of Obama. The Israeli public makes its political choices in a democratic way by voting in elections, and not by urging the country’s young to oppose its leadership.”

The bold section was from the quote,BTW.

quote:
Moran Azulay reports in centrist news site Ynetnews in English at 1749 GMT: “Naftali Bennett, the newly appointed economy and trade minister and a member of the Political-Security Cabinet, was the first senior politician to respond to US President Barack Obama’s speech in Jerusalem. ‘The results of our latest pullout were felt this morning in Sederot and by the thousands of victims born during the last few years,’ Bennett said Thursday in reference to the rocket attack from Gaza on the Israeli border town.’ . . . Bennett said, challenging the wide acceptance of the two-state solution … ‘Generally,’ the new minister added, ‘there is no occupation within one’s own land.’…

quote:
“MK Regev: The US media seldom reports on the internal politics of other countries, and likely won’t convey the reaction of the ruling Israeli Likud Party to Obama’s speech. Settler leaders, who are colonizing the Palestinian West Bank warned of the destructive character of Obama’s agenda in Israel when he implied that the youth demonstrate their political beliefs and that his suggestion was designed to muster political opposition against Netanyahu. Israelis should fight any implementation of his suggestions.


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Greg Davidson
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Bud,

I agree that Hamas is responsible for evil actions as per our definition - the killing of innocent civilians. If we assert that all Palestinians who voted for Hamas bear a share of responsibility for that evil, does that also imply that (a) those Palestinians who did not vote for Hamas are not touched by that evil?, and (b) any Americans who voted for George W. Bush (or who voted for a greater majority of representatives favoring War with Iraq in 2002) bear a similar share of responsibility for a much larger group of innocent civilians who were killed in the US intervention in Iraq? I don't like this logic, but if we ignore the urge to twist the rules so that there's one set for our side and another set for our opponents, we wind up with assigning responsibility for many killed innocent civilians to those who enabled the government that took the actions. Because of this, I am cautious about projecting too much guilt on broad groups of people in stead of on those who took direct actions that resulted in the outcome. And I recognize that these situations can be complex - on many occasions an intervention will result in some civilian casualties and the failure to intervene will result in other civilian casualties. So caution is required in placing moral judgments.

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