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Author Topic: London Beheadings
Viking_Longship
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This topic seems worthy of discussion.

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Interview with woman who tried to keep the terrorists distracted to keep them from doing more killing.
web page

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Viking_Longship
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Suspect

Suspect is a British born of Nigerian descent. Raised Christian and converted to Islam.

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starLisa
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No! He's a Muslim? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you!
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djquag1
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Brutal.

It's a step up, though, from killing women and children. As horrific as this was, they killed a soldier.

This wasn't caused by Islam, no more then Christianity caused the Phelps group or Judaism caused Amir's or Natan-Zada's actions.

Muslims in America don't pull stuff like this. It's on ongoing problem in Europe. They allow this brand of radical Islam to fester, thinking they can just isolate the problem by penning them in their own communities. As we can see, this works about as well as isolating an appendix that's about to burst without removing it from the body.

They need to be integrated into Western culture, forcibly or otherwise.

The question is, what is different about American society that allows immigrants to assimilate more readily?

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G3
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I'm gonna slice and dice a bit to keep themes together ... sorry if I hose it up.

quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
They need to be integrated into Western culture, forcibly or otherwise.

Michael Adebolajo, 28, was born in Lambeth, south London. If being born and raised in the UK does not integrate him into UK culture, what would?

quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Muslims in America don't pull stuff like this.

Nidal Malik Hasan, Ft. Hood. John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, DC snipers. Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, born Carlos Leon Bledsoe, military recruiting office in Little Rock, Arkansas. Dzhokhar said Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Boston Marathon. There are plenty more examples. Muslims in America pull "stuff like this" regularly.

quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
The question is, what is different about American society that allows immigrants to assimilate more readily?

The question is, what is it about American society that allows us to overlook all of it? That allows us to dismiss it as "workplace violence" or unrelated crime?


quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
It's a step up, though, from killing women and children. As horrific as this was, they killed a soldier.

A step up?!? Well, I guess every cloud has a silver lining after all. [DOH]

quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
This wasn't caused by Islam, no more then Christianity caused the Phelps group or Judaism caused Amir's or Natan-Zada's actions.

It wasn't caused by a lack of cultural integration either, not in this case, not in the ones listed above. The single biggest common denominator ... wait for it ... Islam. So I don't think simply dismissing Islam, in it's more radicalized forms, as not being a part of the cause is a very dangerous form of denial.
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Viking_Longship
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djquag

Actually a Muslim man beheaded to Egyptian Copts here in New Jersey a few months ago.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=8989357

American Muslims do commit acts of terror and they engage in Jihad overseas. What they haven't done so far is riot like they do in Europe.

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As a Christian I would love to say Phelps was not caused by Chritianity but a perversion of a faith (or a non-faith see Soviet Atheism) still begins with the mainstream version.

There's also, as G3 points out, the fact that he wasn't born into a Muslim community.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
The single biggest common denominator ... wait for it ... Islam.
Which is because ... wait for it ... you only chose Islamicists for your list. [Big Grin]
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djquag1
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Good points being raised, but I'll point out that being born and raised in a country in Europe nowadays doesn't mean you get raised in it's culture.

There are subcommunities, like Little China and Little Italy. Except they're much more isolated. The immigrants bring a lot of trash from their old culture, and they keep it, and teach it to their children. They're being raised in the same culture as the mother country, while living in Western society, and if we can't break that then the problems will never cease.

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djquag1
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I'll admit I don't know right now if Lambeth is one of those communities.
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djquag1
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It's morbidly amusing how so many of the news reports refer to the killers as suspects, using the word allegedly a lot.

I mean, they're both dead, and we have footage of one of them waving a cleaver and being literally red handed.

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
The single biggest common denominator ... wait for it ... Islam.
Which is because ... wait for it ... you only chose Islamicists for your list. [Big Grin]
[FootInMouth]
You do know that's what we were talking about, right? Islamist attacks within the US?

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Viking_Longship
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They're not dead. The police shot to wound. They're in the hospital under armed gaurd.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Good points being raised, but I'll point out that being born and raised in a country in Europe nowadays doesn't mean you get raised in it's culture.

That's a good point but my point is that if being born and raised in a country in Europe, fluent in the language, culturally integrated in a way only a native born can, does not do get one integrated then what would? What could be done to force it?
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Viking_Longship
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Glen Greenwald actually posted this on his site. Apparently he thinks Maher looks bad in this debate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/11/bill-maher-muslims-islam-benghazi

Personally I think Maher has his number.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You do know that's what we were talking about, right? Islamist attacks within the US?
I think you missed the point of his objection. The implication he was criticizing was that Muslims were more likely to "regularly" do this sort of "stuff," and noting that the bombers and mass murderers that were named were by definition not a representative sample; it is not remarkable that they were all Muslim because the list was of Muslims who were bombers and mass-murderers. In order to make the implicit point, however, one must identify whether American Muslims are significantly more likely than American non-Muslims to be bombers and mass-murderers. I don't doubt that such a study has actually been done, by the way.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
You do know that's what we were talking about, right? Islamist attacks within the US?
Yeah, but pointing out that the single common denominator of your list of Islamists is Islam is completely meaningless, isn't it?

Yes, you made your point that cultural integration didn't keep these Islamists from committing violence. But, since the examples were selected because they were Moslem, pointing out that they all had the same religion proves nothing else. It certainly doesn't indicate that their particular religion had anything to do with their violence, since anyone of any other religion was excluded from the list.

So the next statement--"So I don't think simply dismissing Islam, in it's more radicalized forms, as not being a part of the cause is a very dangerous form of denial."--has no basis.

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djquag1
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Maher does have a good argument. I'm still resistant to the idea that it's Islam itself that is an inherent problem. Rather, now is just a bad time in the history of Islam ; for all of the peaceful interpretations that are out there, there are a lot of nasty ones too, and more importantly, entire cultures and countries that embrace the nasty interpretations. The age of free information also means that some random dumbass living in Europe or the US can hear a hate filled speech from Saudi Arabia anytime he wants, propping up any insecurities and prejudices he might have.

Outsider observers poking their head in to take a look at Christianity in the middle ages, or Judaism in the OT period, would have seen a whole lot of savagery. Would they have been correct to think that it was Christianity and Judaism that was the problem?

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Bud Martin
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Simply put, Islam is perceived by most of the West as evil because of the bad acts that get all the press; and its justified by the numbers and frequency of Muslim atrocities against other Muslims as well as non-Muslims? Any religion that believes its all right to sentence people to death for changing to another religion is evil (and apparently Iran and Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Pakistan and many other Muslim countries believe that).

quote:
Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. In Islam, politics and religion are inseparably intertwined. A famous fundamental expression in Islam says it all, “Islam is a religion and a state.”

“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” — Bukhari 9.84.57 ‘baddala deenahu, faqtuhulu’

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/

The root of the Muslim problem might be because there is a lack of centralized control or centralized authority and no one leader holds sway over the others; that are being dominated and threatened by a vocal and violent minority.

There are passages in the bible that invite violence also, but Christians have mainly grown out of that violent stage across the world and the incidents of violence are ever decreasing over time, while Muslim atrocities have grown exponentially since the 1960's and are being exported to countries around the world. DJ, that period of barbarism for other religions was then and this is NOW and the Muslims are the ones killing so many innocent people and destroying historical artifacts and intimidating any moderation or compromise. This is a new modern age and the times are different and the Muslims are the ones regressing back to the middle ages.

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Viking_Longship
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Djquag

Maher adressed this after the Boston bombing. According to Maher, yes in the middle ages Christianity looks worse, but we're not living in medieval history, we're living now.

BTW when he says "Talk to Salman Rushdie after the show" he means it. Salman Rushdie was there.

web page

[ May 23, 2013, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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starLisa
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We can't wait 600 years for Muslims to get civilized.

I saw this on Facebook today. I'm quoting it in full, because I don't have a link for it.

quote:
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
The author's references to past history are accurate and clear. It's not a lengthy read, it's easy to understand, and it's well worth the read.
The author is Dr.Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When he was asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

"Very few people were true Nazis," he said, "but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

It is the fanatics who march.

It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.

It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.

It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals.

It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the "silent majority," is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of "no-go" zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

That's the reality. Things have gotten worse and worse while the PC police have banned us from identifying the problem
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djquag1
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You all raise good points, and I'm all for fighting radical Islam. I think people know that I'm not a fan of shari'ah or any religious law.

I just don't want it to get to the point where it's acceptable to say "That man is a Muslim, therefore he is dangerous to others and a savage."

What can we do if we remove the PC police shackles? Kill them? That's the problem with religions ; it's very hard to stamp them out, and attempting to wipe them out tends to make the survivors think they're even more right and special.

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Viking_Longship
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djquag

I think the key is understanding the difference between a reasonable concern about an ideology which can be manipulated to violent ends, and a hysterical phobia.

Unfortunately hysterical phobia is how we're accustomed to doing politics in our culture. We could grow up, but it's too hard.

A country that can barely handle two political parties that barely differ is going to have a hard time with a religion where 99.9 % of the people are perfectly safe but .1% are potentially incredibley angry killers.

[ May 23, 2013, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Bud Martin
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I think the UK should relocate all those Muslim communities to Ireland and place them in between the Catholic and Protestant communities and see what happens!

I would also think that there are no Muslim riots in the US because they know how well armed the US citizens are compared to the Brits; oops another reason to listen to the NRA once again! [Razz] [Wink] [Roll Eyes]

You did see that the two men in this incident DID have a gun!

[ May 23, 2013, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Bud Martin
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In Washington D.C. in the late 1970s, Iranians rioted in Washington D.C. and the Marine Corps was called out and I was there when a Muslim man started urinating on the US flag and we charged them with riot shields and batons and they never rioted again.
BTW, Muslims rioted once in Houston in 1980 when the Shah came to the United States for medical treatment and they got violent and some construction worker operating a crane dropped some steel beams on them killing Five. The riots stopped.

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djquag1
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I hope you had a better reason for charging and beating protesters then the fact that one of them pissed on a flag.
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TomDavidson
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I was in Tennessee when a bunch of miners dying of black lung rioted against the company that owned most of their town. Police came in and charged 'em with batons and they never rioted again.

As a side note: do you have any other information about the brutal murder of some Muslim rioters in Houston? I'm interested in that story, and can't find any historical references.

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djquag1
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Viking -

You're right. Subtlety and nuance usually isn't an American specialty.

I think it's important that we fight the twisting of the ideology, and the people who promote it.

It's just as important that we remember that it's the evil interpretation that is the problem, and not the religion itself. I'm not saying that is what you're doing, but far too many people do.

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Bud Martin
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I take the Fifth, [Razz] thank you; and this isn't a court of law! I do believe it was ruled an accident and I wasn't in charge of the Marines, but was following orders, Zig Heil! [LOL]

[ May 23, 2013, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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djquag1
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My dad, my uncle, and myself were talking the other day about how amazing it is that we don't have more riots in the US; the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer, and nobody even gets bothered enough to chuck a few rocks.
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Bud Martin
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OK, dj, I have to totally agree with that one!

BTW, I was in Memphis after MLK died and there were loads of riots and was in LA after Rodney Kings incident and there were loads of riots then too. But it has been a long time, maybe the FDA put something into the food to make us complacent! [Eek!] [Crying]

[ May 23, 2013, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
In Washington D.C. in the late 1970s, Iranians rioted in Washington D.C. and the Marine Corps was called out and I was there when a Muslim man started urinating on the US flag and we charged them with riot shields and batons and they never rioted again.
BTW, Muslims rioted once in Houston in 1980 when the Shah came to the United States for medical treatment and they got violent and some construction worker operating a crane dropped some steel beams on them killing Five. The riots stopped.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bud we don't take kindly to trolls here. You need to either give us some evidence that the incidents you just described actually occured or make yourself scarce pronto.

[ May 23, 2013, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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djquag

The best friends Jihadis have are hysterical Islamophobes. The second best friends they have are people who won't admit something very bad happens to be happening within Islam because they don't want to be associated with hysterical Islamophobes.

It wasn't that long ago you were trashing me for having Saudis I like and respect. btw

[ May 23, 2013, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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djquag1
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Yeah, but the conversation was a little heated, as I recall, mostly my own doing.

I'll admit I may have had my Saudiaphobe(new word) glasses on at the time. I was surprised to learn that there are Saudis who don't hold to every brutal tenet of shari'ah. Talking with you helped enlighten me, which is one of the reasons I like Ornery.

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djquag1
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And I've admitted something bad is happening within Islam, haven't I? What I'm disputing is that that badness is occurring because of a specific fault with Islam.

There are specific passages that can be used to justify bad things, of course. But all of the Abrahamic religions have some of those. We don't see many Christians or Jews stoning adulterers or disobedient children to death, and nowadays they choose to suffer through a witch living.

Muslims can learn to pick and choose from their religion, the same as the other religions have. The question is how to get them there.

[ May 23, 2013, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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Viking_Longship
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djquag,

I suspect that falls into the Russians love their children too, category.

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djquag1
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Cold War ended when I was seven, explain that one for me?
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Muslims can learn to pick and choose from their religion, the same as the other religions have. The question is how to get them there.

I don't know how you can liberalize somebody else's religion.
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djquag1
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We can't do it for them, of course. They have to choose to do it. Whether we encourage them through the Bush method of bombing the hell out of them, or more peaceful means, is the question.

And that's not to say that sometimes responding with violence isn't the right thing to do.

[ May 23, 2013, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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Bud Martin
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What about anything I said is being like a troll? There was a statement that there were no riots in America and I witnessed both riots Viking. I was involved in one personally. I don't know why or care that someone can't find proof; I am speaking of personal experience, so NO I am not a troll. Maybe because they ruled it an accident (I think it was swept under the rug) is why no proof can be found, but I read the newspapers and saw it on the local news as I lived in Houston and worked downtown at the Texas Commerce Tower at the time! The reference to taking the Fifth was a joke about the IRS situation, is it illegal to make a joke?

I've already mentioned the riot in DC before and talked about it at length on this forum on another thread, though I couldn't find it easily in the profile, under recent posts. Being a marine back in my day was a lot like being a storm trooper following orders and when ordered to jump, we DID! I love the Corps, but I wouldn't ever recommend it to anyone with a strong independent streak.

[ May 23, 2013, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Viking_Longship
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djquag

Explain the reference?
Sting "Russians"

I happen to be married to a Russian. She loves her child but has no affection or nostalgia for the Soviet Union. One can't presume that people in a country buy their government's BS.

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