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Author Topic: London Beheadings
Viking_Longship
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Bud you're saying that you were a Marine and had to break up Iranian riots in the United States by force of arms. That just vanished into history?

I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but "I was there" doesn't do it when we don't know who you are.

[ May 23, 2013, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Bud Martin
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The Marines had no arms (usually means guns and weapons that shoot in Marine speak), just riot shields and batons. This riot was totally unexpected and the DC police were completely unprepared to deal with it and since we were at HQ Marine Corps right across the river next to the Pentagon, we were it. They have since put up barriers and have a ready force available and have cameras monitoring the entire area.

It wasn't thousands of people, just a few hundred. Many of them wore masks covering their faces, round white paper masks (supposedly to keep the Shah’s secret police from identifying them and persecuting their families) with holes cut out for the eyes and mouth. Many were supposedly students and family members of students and they basically were peaceful until ordered to disperse by the Police. This was just a few blocks from the White House at DuPont Circle. The D.C. police were there and we were their backup.

The Iranians started throwing things and exposing themselves and shouting insults at us and then they spotted an old lady pushing a cart that had a US flag on it. They attacked her and knocked her down and began to urinate on the US flag and our captain, who was on the radio asking for instructions, put down the receiver and ordered a charge. We ran at them and they took off; those that were slow got whacked and taken into custody and were turned over to the D.C. police. I still remember my OIC hollering, “DON’T KILL ANY OF THE BASTAR_s”

I was a low ranking Sgt at the time and had no authority, but I am surprised that no Iranians were seriously hurt as my fellow Marines were highly motivated after the situation in Iran was starting to get out of hand. The US embassy in Iran had already been attacked in Tehran a few times and Marines there had taken some minor casualties. The Embassy command and training center was located at HQ USMC too.

It's irrelevant that you know anyone on this forum as most people are just made up identities and who is "WE" that you are referring to anyway. You do have the right and privilege to deny or disagree with me, as I have the right and privilege to express my opinions and experiences here the same as anyone; but that doesn't change the fact that I know what happened to me and what I saw.

Do you really believe that everything is going to be on the internet? You can't really mean that!

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Viking_Longship
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Bud some of the people on this forum have been hanging out here for almost a decade, so things are less annonymous here than they are elsewhere on the web. You're still really new.

Your story is sounding more plausible in the details, but it also no longer really supports your point that the reason that Muslims don't riot in the USA is that when they tried they were put down violently. How would that incident demotivate them is it's not common knowledge? (After all they're perfectly willing to riot in their own countries despite the brutality of their police.)

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TomDavidson
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I'm still more interested in the Houston thing. If you've got any details that I could use to find that in LN or something, Bud, please let me know.
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Pete at Home
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Has Al started in with his moral equasion to the NRA yet?
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AI Wessex
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If you need more time before you rejoin the discussions and start lobbing spitballs you should take it.
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Bud Martin
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I really was making the comparison that the Muslim radicals of that day and age aren't the same Muslim radicals of today. Those Muslims were less violent and not prepared for suicidal attacks and could be chased away by some Marines with no weapons or intimidated by construction workers that "accidentally" dropped some building materials on them.

The Muslim radicals of today will behead you with a machete in the middle of a street in a busy major metropolitan area like these men in London, or use a bomb to kill you or your family at a public event, like the Boston Marathon or randomly shoot you from inside the trunk of a car like the D.C. sniper and act totally insane with no regard to their own personal safety or life.

I would go on to say that one reason people are getting armed to the teeth today is because of Muslim atrocities like the London beheading and the Boston Bombing and the D.C. sniper. It scares the Hell out of people and they're going to fear Muslims because of that and the radicals obviously know that, just look at what those men said after killing that soldier.

The radicals that rioted back in 1977-8 were mainly Iranians and it was specifically about the Shah of Iran, while the radicals today have a litany of causes and hatreds, are far more radicalized and are from many different Muslim countries.

You misinterpreted my statements; you said "my point was that Muslim radicals don't riot in the USA because when they tried, they were put down violently" and that is incorrect. I thought I was trying to explain that they stopped rioting back then (because they weren't prepared to be that violent) and were easily intimidated. Add to that, I said:
quote:
"I would also think that there are no Muslim radical riots in the US (today) because they know how well armed the US citizens are compared to the Brits".
I would think that the Muslim radicals realize there are a lot of guns around in America, so they are looking for the softest targets possible. If they rioted publically, they know they would become the target for those weapons and America has militia groups out the Yazoo.

If we become the next Sweden or UK or France, the radical elements will be looking for just that kind of thing to happen; but radicals don't have the numbers yet in any specific area of the country (except possibly Detroit) to accomplish that and what good is there to riot in Detroit (sorry but that is a joke as Detroit could probably use a riot to help them rebuild the city)

I don’t remember a lot about the Houston incident Tom, except that there had been several Iranian public demonstrations that had turned into mild riots and that construction workers had attacked the Iranians and beaten several of them up because they had trashed the downtown area, so they came back again and that’s when the construction “accident” happened. I left Houston not too long after that and moved outside Houston, but I did remember that it happened before the Commerce tower was finished and I was still working in the Pennzoil towers. It’s likely that it was in the summer of 1980. I also remembered that the suspected crane operator was a Mexican citizen and headed back over the border after the event occurred. If it helps, I also remember it being one of the worst heat waves in a hundred years at that time and a hundred or so people died from heat stroke in Houston in that same month.

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KidTokyo
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I do not believe "religion" has the power to "cause" anything. "Islam" is not a singular, distinct "thing" which can be analyzed in the way it is being used in this discussion. The difference between someone who commits the kinds of crimes we are discussing and someone who doesn't is vast. The great majority of people do not and cannot perform such acts.

Most of the brutal knife attacks in the western world -- no less gruesome that what happened recently in London -- are committed by "Christians," but Christianity is not on trial every time it happens. Even Christians who claim a religious justification for their violent acts are immediately labelled as delusional, so that they can be quickly parsed away from Christianity in general so as not to tarnish it. No one even consideres implicating Christianity. Yet, "Muslims," for whatever reason, continued to be viewed as a single mas of intentionality, the only difference being gradations of zealotry.

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starLisa
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Anjem Choudary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPeE2AJr0tk

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Wayward Son
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Well said, Kid.
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Hannibal
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Kid, it is the "Muslims" themselves who created and adopted this sense of Identity.
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Viking_Longship
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Bud

Ok I wasn't delibereately misinterpreting you but I was misunderstanding you.

Now that I do understand you (I think) I still disagree on a couple of points.

Muslim radicals are perfectly happy to opperate in Iraq where the citizenry is well armed and are allowed, unlike us, fully automatic weapons. So no I don't think our armed population is much of a deterent. It certainly hasn't been a deterrent to keep other groups in this country from rioting.

I don't want to get into a long tangent about this, but most of the people I've seen arming themselves most seriously are preppers, and they're more worried about an economic break down than terrorists.

You're right that Muslims in this country don't have the numbers. They're also a lot better educated and more proseperous in general than muslims in Europe, who would be analogous to Mexicans here.

None of that of course means we don't have to be concerned about terrorism, but I don't see the kind of civil unrest they've had in Europe coming from Muslims. (My hometown has been subject to major riots twice in my adult life, one time because the University of Kentucky won a national championship. I still can't figure that one out.)

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Viking_Longship
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Kid

Sorry but I think that's more a liberal dogma than a realistic take on the situation.

Do you remember The Last Temptaion of Christ? Unless you're looking at it as seperate from any religious message it's incredibly blasphemous to Christianity. Chritians protested it, but they didn't riot, Martin Scorcese is still walking around. Theo Van Gogh isn't.

Penn Jillette went after the Bible and Creationism on "Bull****". He says openly that they wouldn't go after Islam because they love their families.

South Park made fun of Jesus for 10 years and it wasn't a big deal. They hit Mormons and Scientoligists and nobody cared. Once they went after Islam the S hit the fan.

There is a difference between the two faiths.

[ May 24, 2013, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Adam Masterman
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Viking, the Paris screening of tLToC was the site of a molotov cocktail attack by Christian fundies; 13 were injured, four of them severely burned. Indeed, there was a rash of violent responses; more than I expected (and apparently you assumed), which illustrates the muslim=terrorist stereotyping quite interestingly.

Last Temptation Violence

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Christians protested it, but they didn't riot,
"Corpus Christi" in Greece saw mass violence against it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/12/greece-fascists-beating-people-police?newsfeed=true

So, yeah, Christians have the *capacity* to riot in violence just as much as Islamists do.

This doesn't excuse Islam or reduce the need to act against Islamic violence -- all the more, it shows that the same religion can behave differently from place to place depending on how much leeway it's given to spew hatred and enable violence. Christianity is not given such violence leeway in the West as a *religion* (Westerners allow Westerner imperialism only when it's pronounced secular) it was given such leeway in Greece.

[ May 24, 2013, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Bud Martin
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Adam,

You went back 25 years to find one example of an injuring attack by militant christians... hmmmm dangerous bunch there! Dang incompetants can't seem to kill anyone! I'd have to agree with Viking on that issue.

I just don't see the danger of any militant Christians in the US and find the idea preposterous that there is any organized sect of Christians in America plotting religious massacres in the name of God.

I have no trouble envisioning a radical Muslim group coming here to the US to murder as many innocent people as they can, since it has already happened here on 9/11.

Viking,

I pretty much agree with everything you posted about my previous comments last and it was nicely put!

[ May 24, 2013, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You went back 25 years to find one example of an injuring attack by militant christians...
You don't have to go that far back. Pretty much any country where Christians are an oppressed minority has regular violent riots by Christians.
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Aris Katsaris
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Tom, I think that's upside down. Regular violent riots by <religion x> happen primarily where <religion x> has political power.

Most muslim riots don't happen in *France*, they happen SUPRISE-SURPRISE in muslim-majority countries.

Likewise Protestant riots happen in *Protestant* countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Riots ), Catholic riots happen in Ireland (http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/07/13/catholic-area-riots-after-protestant-marches-in-northern-ireland/), etc, etc. And Orthodox riots happen in Greece.

It's not about being a minority -- it's about feeling you're not being given your due respect. And the bigger you are the bigger said "due" is. So that if a religion has 90% of the power, it's offended that the remaining 10% is allowed to exist.

[ May 24, 2013, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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Bud Martin
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I've never seen or heard of a Christian riot in the United States. Has there been one in the last 100 years?
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TomDavidson
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There aren't many riots in the U.S. in general, because I think -- slightly contrary to Aris' claim, but also supplemental to it -- most riots happen when people lose faith in legal authority and recourse. If you live in an honor culture, where it is expected that families and cliques enforce ethical rules on each other, violent riots are more common; if you live in a culture with legal authorities, but have lost faith in your ability to seek justice or redress through those authorities, riots are also likely.

WASPs in America are still a long way away from feeling like they can't find voice through our government, even though certain elements are doing their best to make them feel put-upon.

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Viking_Longship
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Adam,

That's interesting. I wasn't away of any actual violence in response.

Big differnece in scale though. In the Cartoon Contorversy, for example, about 150 people were killed, an embassy and a consulate were burned and attempt was made on one of the cartoonist's life.

[ May 24, 2013, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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Tom are you equating being a Christian with being a WASP?

[ May 24, 2013, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Most muslim riots don't happen in *France*, they happen SUPRISE-SURPRISE in muslim-majority countries.
That does not necessarily mean that it isn't the oppressed religious minority that is rioting in these countries. [Wink]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Tom are you equating being a Christian with being a WASP?
I thought you guys were. I mean, we've had Hispanic and Black riots all the time here in America, and those populations are disproportionately Christian. If a bunch of Hispanic Catholics rioting doesn't count as a Christian riot, I'm not sure what would.

[ May 24, 2013, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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starLisa
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Tom, are they rioting in the name of Christianity? Are they shouting Crusader slogans as they commit their violence? If they are, you have an excellent parallel there. If they aren't, then there's no comparison at all to hordes of Muslims rioting as they scream Allahu Akbar.
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Viking_Longship
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Tom

Blacks and hispanics don't riot because their religous sensibilities are insulted. There may be some parallels between some of the riots in western Europe and American race riots, but that doesn't make the religious riots vanish from recent history.

[ May 24, 2013, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Bud Martin
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That sounds so odd, "a Christian riot"... sort of oxymoronic; it doesn't even sound the least bit threatening!

[ May 24, 2013, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Bud Martin:
Adam,

You went back 25 years to find one example of an injuring attack by militant christians

Bud,

I wasn't looking for an example of anything; I was just pointing out that Viking's claim was inaccurate.

quote:
... hmmmm dangerous bunch there! Dang incompetants can't seem to kill anyone!
I'm going to hazard a guess that, had these been loved one's or neighbors of yours who got severely burned in a terror attack, you would probably not be so flippant. At least, I would hope.

quote:

I just don't see the danger of any militant Christians in the US and find the idea preposterous that there is any organized sect of Christians in America plotting religious massacres in the name of God.

Broadly speaking, I'm glad that Christianity has mostly (or, at least, somewhat) left fanatical violence behind, but it still takes a bit of cheek to get holier-than-thou on the issue. Christians did, after all, spend three centuries torturing and burning people for being witches, which has the added benefit of being absurd as well as evil (imagine if 9-11 was motivated by the idea that Americans were unicorns). Personally, I think 3 centuries of penitence would be appropriate before Christians get to cast aspersions on other religions (but that's just me).
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Viking_Longship
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Adam

So in the two links I posted Bill maher is singling out Islam and saying that drawing equivelency with Christianity is "liberal bullhsit." Does Maher, an atheist/agnostic, get to be holier than thou?

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Viking_Longship
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8kqjtQdCQk Maher talking to Anderson Cooper about South Park and Islam.
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seagull
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quote:
nobody even gets bothered enough to chuck a few rocks.
When I lived in Berkeley (not too long ago) there was a running joke that "if there was no riot on Telegraph (road) for two years, that in itself would be cause for a riot".

I had to work hard to stay in my room where I heard that there was a riot outside. Every Israeli bone in my body was telling me to go out there and help the honest people stop it. But I also knew that this was Berkeley and not Israel so there might be some honest people rioting.

It's a strange world we live in.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:

Most of the brutal knife attacks in the western world -- no less gruesome that what happened recently in London -- are committed by "Christians," but Christianity is not on trial every time it happens. Even Christians who claim a religious justification for their violent acts are immediately labelled as delusional, so that they can be quickly parsed away from Christianity in general so as not to tarnish it. No one even consideres implicating Christianity.

that statement is painfully foolish for a number of reasons.

first of all obviously most brutal knife attacks in the Western world are less gruesome than beheading.

second of all most Christians involved in nice attacks don't get on video and say that they're doing what they're doing on behalf of Christianity. if someone did that, then you can believe very well but the anti Christian clicque on this site and others would have a never-ending field day.

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Wayward Son
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Admittedly, Christians do very few knife attacks in the U.S. We prefer guns. [Smile]

And Christians usually don't target random soldiers. They target abortion doctors. [Wink]

But the main point still holds. When a "Christian" murders an abortion doctor, or drowns her own kids to save them from Satan, we don't automatically blame Christianity. We often even put Christian in quotes, as if they weren't "real" Christians.

But if a Moslem murders someone, or burns his daughter because she shamed the family, we automatically blame Islam for the behavior.

What these guys did was completely irrational, as the woman who drowned her own kids. But there is no doubt that the woman was crazy; but how many of us consider that these two guys could be nuts, too? Could it be because they are Moslem? [Wink]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
What these guys did was completely irrational, as the woman who drowned her own kids.
What they did was many things but completely irrational it was not.

I was in Belfast back in 95. An Irish guy I hung out with for a couple of days with said "you know who I really feel sorry for are these British soldiers. They didn't asked to get posted here, but they've got little kids coming up to them saying 'we know your name, we know where your family lives.'" That kind of thing is hard on morale.

These guys got the British government telling soldiers in their own country not to appear in public in their uniforms.

That's not completely irrational at all. Monsterous, but not completely irrational.

Abortion bombers aren't completely irrational either, but there aren't that many of them. The number of abortion doctors killed is still less than 10. There are a lot of muslim terrorists, and they're way out of single digits in the numbers of their victims.

The fear of an Islamist takeover of the west is preposterous, but the absolute insistence of western liberals on not seeing that there may be some problems within Islam itself is as just as ridiculous.

[ May 24, 2013, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Admittedly, Christians do very few knife attacks in the U.S. We prefer guns. [Smile]

And Christians usually don't target random soldiers. They target abortion doctors. [Wink]

But the main point still holds. When a "Christian" murders an abortion doctor, or drowns her own kids to save them from Satan, we don't automatically blame Christianity. We often even put Christian in quotes, as if they weren't "real" Christians.

But if a Moslem murders someone, or burns his daughter because she shamed the family, we automatically blame Islam for the behavior.

What these guys did was completely irrational, as the woman who drowned her own kids. But there is no doubt that the woman was crazy; but how many of us consider that these two guys could be nuts, too? Could it be because they are Moslem? [Wink]

the one who drowned her kids didn't say that she did it on behalf of Christianity. she said she did it because she was off her meds. there is no international Christian group saying that her actions are justified by some Christian scriptures.

well that parallel was stupid, but the abortion comparison is valid. Christian scripture does it say to someone who harms a little child, angers God. Christians to bomb the portion doctors are motivated by their religion. its not a good Christian interpretation of their religion, or even a valid interpretation of Christian scripture to think they have a license to kill abortion doctors, but it is an interpretation. well I would argue emphatically that Hitler was not a Christian (a Christian doesn't try to supplant Christ), I don't see anybody arguing that abortion doctor killers are not really Christian, or that christian doctrine and scripture does not motivates their actions.

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Wayward Son
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Actually, the act itself didn't strike me as irrational. Monstrous, yes, but not necessarily irrational.

But then they stood there, talked to people, ranted, and waited for the police. Said only women could come near the bodies, not men. These are not rational acts.

Drowning your children to save them from Satan is more understandable. [Roll Eyes]

How much of this act was religious, and how much was from a possibly diseased mind(s)?

And why would being Christian make so much of a difference in our analysis?

Islamic preachers telling their congregations that murdering for God is good and will be rewarded is the problem. There are many Moslems who do not believe this. Why do we ignore the latter and only look at the former when evaluating Islam? And why do we only look at the latter and ignore the former when a Christian performs a violent act?

There are many violent Islamists, but they are not the only Islamists out there. Why do we act like there are only the violent ones?

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
There are many Moslems who do not believe this. Why do we ignore the latter and only look at the former when evaluating Islam?
Who is this "we"? The only person on this forum who could remotely be in this "we" is Cherry. Even Lisa and Bud have acknowledged the existence of non-violent Muslims.

I'd personally wager that aside from the Israelis and maybe Aris I know more Muslims than anyone here.

This is empty rhetoric.

quote:
But then they stood there, talked to people, ranted, and waited for the police. Said only women could come near the bodies, not men. These are not rational acts.

They weren't worried about being overpowered by women. They wanted a shot at the police. So no, still not all that irrational for a terrorist.

quote:
And why do we only look at the latter and ignore the former when a Christian performs a violent act?

Christian violent acts are really rare now. Again, the abortion doctors murdered are still in single digits. American victims of Islamists alone are in the thousands. Islamic violent acts are common. The numbers matter.

If a liberal icon like Bill Maher is calling this response as liberal bull_____ he's probably right.

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AI Wessex
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I keep asking how you can claim to understand people who do crazy things, and the argument goes back and forth about their supposed rationalizations.

Hypothetical 1: If I shoot a random stranger or several on the street and don't give a supposed justification, am I crazy or rational?

Hypothetical 2: If I shoot a random stranger or several on the street and wave a book and point to it for justification, am I crazy or rational?

2A: What if the book is the New Testament?
2B: What if the book is the Doctrine of Cthulhu?
2C: What if the book is the Koran?

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seagull
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In some way Islam is much more civilized than the dominant Western culture we have today:

When our extremists or nutcases break loose, they kill whoever they want to: their families, abortion doctors, random people on the streets ...
We just call them crazy, but our religious, social and mental health systems are not geared to prevent these murders from happening (with a few exceptions that are irrelevant to what I am trying to say).

Cultures that have evolved over centuries in conjunction with Islam on the other hand are very proficient at locating those unstable individuals early on and channeling them toward goals that are considered positive by those cultures. For example, Hamas is very good at finding out which people have homicidal tendencies and/or lack the psychological barriers that make it hard for most of us to kill other people. Their social structures and organization is dedicated to training these people and directing them so they will eventually to kill me (their enemy) instead of killing abortion doctors or random people on the street.

I may not like the fact that the people they train are coming to kill me - but I have to admire the effectiveness of their education and training system.

It is a serious mistake to under-estimate them and think that just because we are more advanced than they are in some narrow technological fields - we have nothing to fear. The only reason I agree that the "fear of an Islamist takeover of the west is preposterous" is because there are enough people who respect those enemies who happen to use Islam as a weapon. If that ever stopped being true, their victory would be a foregone conclusion.

[ May 24, 2013, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Viking_Longship
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Al the victim of this killing was not random.

Seagull the killers here don't come from the Islamic civilization. They were British born and raised. The reason that an Islamic takeover of the west is preposterous is that there are only a tiny tiny minority of muslims in the west. In the USA they're less than 1%. In Britain last I checked the were 5%. Numbers matter. (Unfortunately they don't favor your country.)

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