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Author Topic: London Beheadings
Greg Davidson
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quote:
The point that Islam doesn't produce more violence overall doesn't mean that Jihadism isn't rooted in a certain interpretation of Islam. Understanding what those areguments are isn't inserting our bias, it's eliminating a bias.
I agree. And the first step of accurately unterpreting the threat is to acknowledge that overall Islam is not the root cause of the problem, it's the extremists who derive rationalization out of a particular view of Islamic scripture. Because no religion has been immune from extremists taking it's teachings and using them to justify evil actions.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
They have no choice but to hide them in civilians centers. Oh, I know...how unethical!

Bull****, they have no choice.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Your moral outrage is a luxury, achieved by the vast imbalance of firepower between Israel and Palestinians. If the roles were reversed, Israelis would do exactly the same thing with whatever weapons they could find. They would have to, if they want to survive it all. Can you seriously argue that Israelis would take the "moral high ground" against a Palestine with 100 times the firepower? or would they do everything they could to continue to exist? The question answers itself.

Only to a closed mind. The fact is, we didn't do that under British occupation.

And the so-called Palestinians are under no existential threat. Israel isn't an aggressor. The Arabs are. If they stop firing rockets at us, the conflict stops. The problem is that they don't want the conflict to stop. They want to continue it until Israel is gone. *That* is an existential threat.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
I note also that you conflate all "Arabs" again, and even worse conflate "Iran" with "Arabs." Iranians are not Arabs.

Duh. They're Muslims.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
Oh...what the hell, they're all the same, they all look alike with their big noses and shifty evil eyes! [Roll Eyes]

מפגר. איזה חרא יוצא ממך, יא דביל.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
Are you asking that as a way of justifying them transporting arms in ambulances and firing from heavily populated areas, schools, hospitals, etc.?
You know what? Yes. Yes I am. At some point it is preposterous to cry "international law" when you won't even recognize the right of a nation to exist. You talk of international law...Israel violates it routinely.
No. Israel does not. And I deny the right of a "nation" to exist only because that "nation" was created artificially with the sole intent of making war against Israel. There could have been a Palestinian nation, had they agreed to the partition plan in the 40s, but they rejected it, and it never happened.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
There isn't a nation on Earth I can think of that didn't terrorize its way into existence. Israel most definitely included. Enough with the double standard already!

Israel did nothing of the sort.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
Israel's ability to kill more is actually Israel's ability to end the fighting sooner.
How's that working out for you?
To the extent that the timorous beasties running Israel refuse to win, not so well. Which is one reason among many that I support Moshe Feiglin.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
The issue is, we fire from tanks, because we don't want to get hurt. They fire from hospitals because they don't give a damn if people get hurt. It's a cultural difference. We value human life. We regret the necessity of taking it. They don't. They raise their children in an atmosphere that says killing and dying is something to aspire to. That's bestial.
Self-aggrandizing nonsense. Zionists performed acts of terrorism prior to Israel's founding.
No, we did not.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
They felt it was justified. If Israel was choked off from the world and could only get crap weapons on the black market, through tunnels, they would do it. And they would hide the weapons anywhere they could. They would do anything to survive. The only difference between you and a Palestinian is circumstance. You are not a superior being.

You know what? We f-ing well are. We are superior morally.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
We do. We supply power to them. We supply food and other necessities to them. We only blockade things that can be used for war. "Barely plug in a toaster"? Are you freaking kidding me? Go and visit Gaza. Do they have slums? Sure. So do we. Do they have luxury hotels and sports centers with Olympic sized swimming pools? Yep. Do they have malls? Yep. Do they have villas and new cars? Yes, they damned well do. Do you have any idea how much money streams into Gaza?
Do you really think you can convince me with this cherry-picking?

The Israel:Palestine per capita GDP is 20:1.

When we abandoned Gaza to them, we left them hydroponic greenhouses, which were extremely productive and lucrative. The animals destroyed them. The reason their GDP is low is that they choose to put all their efforts into war and atrocities and corruption. They could make start-ups just like Israel does, but they don't want to. They don't have a national interest in that. Why should they, when useful idiots stream billions of dollars of aid to them every year?
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TomDavidson
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Ah, Lisa, it's nice to see that you continue to dehumanize everyone you disagree with, from "timorous beasties" to destructive animals to useful idiots.

Out of interest, is there anyone who disagrees with you on the topic of Palestinian statehood whom you respect?

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KidTokyo
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VL,

quote:
You've been provided with plenty of evidence to the contrary. At this point I really think you're just sticking by your dogmas for their own sake.
You really aren't getting my point.

You keep saying "Islam" this and "Islam" that but you haven't explained what "Islam" does or what it is.

If I had to explain what it is about the moon that moves the tides, I would say "gravitational pull."

If I had to say what it is about the moon that lights the night, I would say "sunlight reflected from its surface."

If I had to say what it is about the moon that inspires poets to write poems I would say...um...what exactly?

You've been giving me "evidence" that the moon inspires poets to write poems. There is, of course, plenty of evidence. Poems about and incorporating the moon abound!

But does that have anything at all to do with the moon in and of itself?

But you're even at a farther remove from it than that. Any "religion" is not a single thing. Religions are aggregations of many other things, not things unto themselves.

By blaming "Islam" you are naming something far too vague. This causes a failure of understanding, is a useless analysis.

The things that actually cause terrorist behavior are not unique to Islam and are not solved by addressing issues in Islam. This has nothing do with political correctness and everything to do with my interest in self-preservation and wanting to save lives. I prefer to identify an actual, fixable problem, not a vague aggregation of ideas and traditions with no fixed intentionality of its own. I want to identify a specific phenomenon that has a specified cause..

What IDEAS and VALUES lead to terrorism? What conditions cause those value systems to arise? Answer those questions and you'll be dealing something only tangential to Islam or any religion.

[ May 29, 2013, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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KidTokyo
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Star,

quote:
Bull****, they have no choice.
Well, they could chose not to fight back and then cease to exist altogether.

quote:
The fact is, we didn't do that under British occupation.
Um, yes "you" did. The Irgun and other Zionist groups conducted dozens of terrorist attacks.

"Every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state."

Recognize that?

quote:
If they stop firing rockets at us, the conflict stops.
Israel is building on their land. Any sane society resists force with force.

quote:
מפגר. איזה חרא יוצא ממך, יא דביל.
The same to your mother.

quote:
And I deny the right of a "nation" to exist only because that "nation" was created artificially with the sole intent of making war against Israel.
Nothing could me more artificial than the creation of Israel. How many countries have claimed that Israel was created for the sole purpose of making war on Arabic people? Both statements are utterly absurd and self-aggrandizing.

quote:
Israel did nothing of the sort.
Both terrorism and armed forces were involved. You can't possibly deny this.

quote:
No, we did not.
Really?

quote:
The reason their GDP is low is that they choose to put all their efforts into war and atrocities and corruption. They could make start-ups just like Israel does, but they don't want to. They don't have a national interest in that.
But apparently they have a national interest in luxury hotels, as you pointed out so vehemently! [LOL]

[ May 29, 2013, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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Viking_Longship
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[/QUOTE] But there is a huge amount of data that disproves the assertion that Islam is the cause of murders to a greater degree than Christianity or other religions. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Greg the topic is not "does Islam cause people to commit more murders?". Your program does not address murder per se. This argument you're making has no bearing on the topic.

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Viking_Longship
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Kid

To start with I'd appreciate it if you'd remember these are people I have a great deal of familiarity with. I don't talk down to you about Japan.


There is a movement within Sunni Islam right now. That movement is called Salafism or Wahabism. It's a reform movement that seeks to retore purity to the the faith.

Salafism has been the dominant school of Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia for the past 200 years. Saudis have funneled money into spreading the Salafist message amongst mainstream Sunnis for decades.

The principals of Salafism empasize Islam as a complete lifestyle, not just soul care and encourages being a muslim as the primary sense of belonging to a collective identity, as opposed to identifying with a nation.

Thus it discourages muslims from having close personal ties with non-Muslims and western society, which it largely rejects.

Islam has a higly developed theory of just war to begin with, and when you add to that a highly reactionary school of thought within the religion it really isn't hard to radicalize from that point.

In my experience many muslims who are from Salafist regimes go at least somewhat native when they get to the US, men trimming and even eschewing the beards and the the thob entirely. With the women it can range from simply not vieling to simply dressing modestly and covering the hair. Muslims from the west or from less fundamentalist countries frequently make the journey the other direction, and when they do they bring the zeal of a convert.

If we're talking about Jihadism you need to factor in the Salfist school of thought and the effect it's having on the way Muslims see themselves.

Religions are not static entities and the things we knew bout them from the past may no longer apply.

Islam takes blasphemy very seriously and the Haddiths speak of Mohammed having people killed for insulting him within his lifetime. THat's probably why they get so upset about any insult to the Prophet. I don't know how we're going to reconcile this with a society that believes in free speech, but pretending it's not an issue isn't the way.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I prefer to identify an actual, fixable problem, not a vague aggregation of ideas and traditions with no fixed intentionality of its own. I want to identify a specific phenomenon that has a specified cause..


What you prefer is irrelevent btw. It's ridiculous to argue that we can't talk about Islam in the context of Islamic terrorism.
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starLisa
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
The fact is, we didn't do that under British occupation.
Um, yes "you" did. The Irgun and other Zionist groups conducted dozens of terrorist attacks.

"Every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state."

Recognize that?

Jewish force against military targets. For example, they arrested some of our boys and condemned them to death for *possession* of weapons. We captured two of their soldiers and told them that if our boys were killed, we'd kill theirs. And that's what happened. Is that terrorism? Did Jews walk into stores and explode bombs? Did Jews walk into crowds and attack people with hatchets? Did Jews target civilians? The answer to all of those is "no".

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
If they stop firing rockets at us, the conflict stops.
Israel is building on their land. Any sane society resists force with force.
So you've decided it's their land. That doesn't make it so. It's our land; not theirs.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
מפגר. איזה חרא יוצא ממך, יא דביל.
The same to your mother.
So, so, so dumb.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
And I deny the right of a "nation" to exist only because that "nation" was created artificially with the sole intent of making war against Israel.
Nothing could me more artificial than the creation of Israel.
Really? A nation that predates almost all of the nations represented in the UN at the time? A nation known the world over? A nation which publically and vociferously maintained its ownership and intent to return to its own land? And that's "artificial"? What kind of garbage are you spouting?

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
How many countries have claimed that Israel was created for the sole purpose of making war on Arabic people? Both statements are utterly absurd and self-aggrandizing.

No. Even Pallies themselves used to say so. Nowadays they've learned to use the media and not make such admissions in public, but it's not so long since they did.

Zahir Muhsein, executive committee member of the PLO, to the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977:
quote:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

The day Arafat signed the Oslo accords in 1993, he said this on Jordanian television:
quote:
Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.
Fathi Hammad, Hamas Minister of the Interior, last year:
quote:
Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Why are the Palestinians? We have many families called al-Masri whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims.
I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich, but he was right when he said:
quote:
Remember, there was no Palestine as a state — (it was) part of the Ottoman Empire. I think we have an invented Palestinian people who are in fact Arabs and historically part of the Arab community and they had the chance to go many places for a variety of political reasons, we have sustained this war against Israel now since the 1940s.
quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
Israel did nothing of the sort.
Both terrorism and armed forces were involved. You can't possibly deny this.

quote:
No, we did not.
Really?

Watch me. Virtually all of the sources cited in that article are from Arabs or from far left Israelis who rely on Arab reports. Propaganda.

quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
quote:
The reason their GDP is low is that they choose to put all their efforts into war and atrocities and corruption. They could make start-ups just like Israel does, but they don't want to. They don't have a national interest in that.
But apparently they have a national interest in luxury hotels, as you pointed out so vehemently! [LOL]
Yes. That's true. They have the maturity of toddlers. They want pretty things, and they want to hurt their enemies. They don't want much more out of life.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Virtually all of the sources cited in that article are from Arabs or from far left Israelis who rely on Arab reports.
The nice thing about believing you're right is that you can dismiss without a second thought anyone who suggests that you're wrong.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Virtually all of the sources cited in that article are from Arabs or from far left Israelis who rely on Arab reports.
The nice thing about believing you're right is that you can dismiss without a second thought anyone who suggests that you're wrong.
ooh, sparks just shot out of my irony meter.
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TomDavidson
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Hey, look! You're back! You still feeling too cowardly to answer my questions in those other threads you ran away from? [Smile]

[ May 29, 2013, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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starLisa
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Wow. The stupid is making my eyes itch. I'm taking a break.
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D.W.
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
מפגר. איזה חרא יוצא ממך, יא דביל.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same to your mother.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, so, so dumb.

Using another language to skirt rules isn't exactly a sign of profound wisdom.
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AI Wessex
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"Then you've willingly accepted a dogma that's going to keep you from having a clear understanding of the world.

Perhaps there's another topic you could explore, because you can't understand terrorism if you think it's crazy."

No, I got to experience terrorism indirectly where I grew up, but it came from the mob, not a religious group. It almost always made sense in that it furthered their status and role in the larger community by reinforcing people's fear of them.
quote:
I don't believe that any murderer who professes a "cause" is really telling the truth.
That sentence was too strong. What I meant was that these two are examples of crazy people who commit heinous acts against others, usually murder, and wrap themselves in the banner of some external rationalization to seek some kind of approval or mitigation of judgment against them. I wonder how they would have turned out if they had never known about Islam. At least one was raised in a devoutly Christian family, and I wonder if he was a "problem" child back in his youth during that period of his life. If you ignore that one sentence, what do you think of the larger point I was making?
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KidTokyo
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quote:
And that's what happened. Is that terrorism? Did Jews walk into stores and explode bombs? Did Jews walk into crowds and attack people with hatchets? Did Jews target civilians? The answer to all of those is "no".
The answer to all these is "yes," as shown in the link I already provided. The Irgun, to name one, attacked civilians in marketplaces on numerous occasions, including one incident, in 1939, where they strapped bombs to a donkey. Killed 20.

quote:
Really? A nation that predates almost all of the nations represented in the UN at the time? A nation known the world over? A nation which publically and vociferously maintained its ownership and intent to return to its own land? And that's "artificial"? What kind of garbage are you spouting?
The modern nation was formed by international mandate and force, following a massive influx of Jews over the preceding decades.

quote:
No. Even Pallies themselves used to say so. Nowadays they've learned to use the media and not make such admissions in public, but it's not so long since they did.
Regarding the quotes that follow -- it's very similar to saying that all Jews everywhere have a home in Israel, is it not?

quote:
I think we have an invented Palestinian people who are in fact Arabs and historically part of the Arab community and they had the chance to go many places for a variety of political reasons, we have sustained this war against Israel now since the 1940s.
I think we have an invented an Israeli people who are in fact Jews and historically part of the European and Arabic community and they had the chance to go many places for a variety of political reasons, we have sustained this war against Muslims now since the 1940s.

Yup, it works! Not saying I agree with it, mind you, just that it makes about as much sense.

quote:
Watch me. Virtually all of the sources cited in that article are from Arabs or from far left Israelis who rely on Arab reports. Propaganda.
That's funny...all the stats about attacks on Arabic civilians come from this source:

quote:
Y. 'Amrami, A. Melitz, דברי הימים למלחמת השחרור ("History of the War of Independence", Shelach Press, 1951. (a sympathetic account of events, mostly related to Irgun and Lehi).


[ May 29, 2013, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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Viking_Longship
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Al I would definately say that in both the case of Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Michael Adebolajo they were highly agressive personalities to start with.

However just saying "they did it because they were mentally ill, there's no sense in this crime," is lazy.

Chechnya has had a lot of diplomatic support from the USA over the years. From a nationalist point of view what Tsarnaev doesn't make sense. Americans are going to associate Chechens with terrorism henceforth. However if you're thinking of this as an Islamist alienating the USA is a good thing in the long run. The USA is a higly corrupt and corrupting entity from that point of view, and Chechen dependency on the USA comes at too high a price. I don't know if that's what he was thinking, but it's logical in a sick way.

As I've mentioned before Adebolajo said specifically that he was trying to start a war in London. If his goal was to cause tnesion between Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain he succeeded.

quote:
Since the terror attack on May 22, there have been 193 anti-Muslim incidents in England, that's 15 times the average number. These hate crimes ranged from vandalizing mosques to pulling off women's headscarves, to threats of violence against Muslims and to minor assaults.

One of the most serious incidents happened Sunday night when three firebombs were thrown at the Grimsby Islamic Cultural Center in Lincolnshire, while worshipers were inside in the mosque. Luckily no one was killed.

According to British media reports, this wave of anti-Muslim fever was not spontaneous. It has been an organized campaign of hate led by the right-wing group English Defence League, which held protests on the streets of London and Newcastle this past weekend.


Anti-Muslim Backlash in UK, but not in USA

Maybe it helps to be religous to understand this, or to have gone through a conversion yourself, but trying to ignore or explain away the religous aspect of these incidents seems very foolish to me.

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Viking_Longship
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A Week in the online Jihad World.

Relevent article

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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Hey, look! You're back! You still feeling too cowardly to answer my questions in those other threads you ran away from? [Smile]

Sorry... I forgot, took a long weekend (not a forced break either if you know what I mean.. and I think you do) and I totally didn't think about anything here. Remind me, what's got your panties in a twist this time?

[ May 29, 2013, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: G3 ]

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AI Wessex
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"However just saying "they did it because they were mentally ill, there's no sense in this crime," is lazy."

I find it interesting that virtually everyone attaches so much legitimacy to the cause these killers claim to have represented and virtually no interest in their mental state. Like I said, if they had beheaded him but said nothing about doing it on behalf of Islam, might you have thought them crazy, or instead looked to find a reason for their actions? There are three unsolved cases of beheadings in the past 5 years in England. Since no one has come forward to give a reason for doing any of them, should we assume that the murderers were crazy, or should we instead assume that it's such a bizarre thing to do that they simply haven't come forward yet to explain why, as the two men in London did?

And if they do come forward with an explanation, should we then assume that they were not crazy? For instance, what if someone is beheaded by someone he doesn't know who then publicly makes the claim that he did it to draw attention to the number of babies who are killed by abortion.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Remind me, what's got your panties in a twist this time?
Your sniveling intellectual cowardice.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Remind me, what's got your panties in a twist this time?
Your sniveling intellectual cowardice.
[LOL] OK, whatever. It's clear your "time off" didn't change anything. [LOL]
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TomDavidson
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Tell you what: try looking up some of the threads you ran out of when you were proven wrong, then reply to 'em. I know you won't, but I'll put that suggestion out there anyway. [Smile]

[ May 29, 2013, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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G3
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That you're so intent on being a vague, passive aggressive sniveler tells me you're not so confident - you're overplaying it. You have something, stop playing childish games and get to it. At this point, you're boring me so I don't know if I'll follow along now or not. [Roll Eyes]
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KidTokyo
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VL,

In light of what you just wrote, why not consider that the root cause of "Islamic" acts of terror derives, not from what whatever belief system the perpetrator takes refuge in, but rather whatever exists in the mainstream that they are retreating from.

Consider as well that America's reaction to the Boston bombings, as opposed to the UK's reaction to the attack on soldiers, is the best possible defense against future acts of terrorism.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
That you're so intent on being a vague, passive aggressive sniveler tells me you're not so confident - you're overplaying it.
*sigh* Dude, I've told you before: don't pull that reverse psychology B.S. on me. I see right through it. I don't provide links. If you're not interested enough in conversations you started and largely kept going until you got run out of them to even remember what they were, that's not an indictment of the rest of us.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by KidTokyo:
VL,

In light of what you just wrote, why not consider that the root cause of "Islamic" acts of terror derives, not from what whatever belief system the perpetrator takes refuge in, but rather whatever exists in the mainstream that they are retreating from.

Consider as well that America's reaction to the Boston bombings, as opposed to the UK's reaction to the attack on soldiers, is the best possible defense against future acts of terrorism.

I absolutely believe that doing everything we can not to be the ogre America the Salafists warn againt is a great idea, but I don't see the wisdom of deliberately choosing to remain ignorant of the enemy's rhetoric and strategy.
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KidTokyo
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VL,

quote:
I absolutely believe that doing everything we can not to be the ogre America the Salafists warn againt is a great idea, but I don't see the wisdom of deliberately choosing to remain ignorant of the enemy's rhetoric and strategy.
I really think you have a blind spot here.

The rhetoric and strategy of terrorists acting in the name of Islam is, generally speaking, to provoke a fear of Islam among non-Muslims, and to radicalize other Muslims. I.e., to foment conflict.

Terrorism is not a tactical weapon -- it has no ability to threaten the existence of its enemy.

Terrorism is a psychological weapon, intended to exploit deep-rooted, primal fears and thereby to invoke a primal, fear-based reaction.

And every time someone says "there's something screwy going on with Islam," the terrorist psychology wins.

Which is why the American reaction is the good response, and not the UK reaction.

In America, we are finally learning to reject the psychological trap that terrorists would set for us. We are learning to reject the literalism, the stark dichotomies, the one-dimensional categorical thinking that terrorism is intended to seed.

[ May 29, 2013, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: KidTokyo ]

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Viking_Longship
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Al

I don't see the sense in pretending that political terrorism doesn't exist when it's been around for millenia.

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Viking_Longship
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Al

To clarify a little further. The London suspects specifically stated a political objective. The Boston bombers were openly interested in politics. I am willing to admit they might be mentally ill, but I am not going to just presume it. Honsestly I think you're being a bit racist.

Also having lived in countries that were subject to regular terrorism I can't imagine this is just some mental malady only certain populations are subject to.

[ May 29, 2013, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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AI Wessex
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"To clarify a little further. The London suspects specifically stated a political objective."

So what? Why do you insist that their claims are a sufficient explanation for their actions? They aren't leaders of their religion or designated spokesmen, and no information has been presented to show that this job was delegated to them by their "leaders". I think that basically most people accept such claims as they made at face value because it's now a "legitimate" terrorist meme and fits a recognizable pattern.

We have averaged about one mass murder a month in the US over the past 5 years. Do you really think that people murder strangers, say by flying an airplane into an office building, because of the IRS? Or that people go postal because of the post office? That they go back to their workplace a month later and kill their ex-coworkers because they were disciplined or because their firing was unjustified?

Tell me why anyone should believe that they didn't commit this murder because one of their girlfriends dumped him last week and he exploded.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
Greg the topic is not "does Islam cause people to commit more murders?". Your program does not address murder per se. This argument you're making has no bearing on the topic.
VL,

I believe that those who focus on Islam as the root cause of Islamic extremists are wrong. The rate of murders, wars, and genocide committed by Muslims is a valid measure of the relative threat of Islam (and I covered comprehensive data on all three areas). Whatever Islam has at its core, it doesn't result in actual Muslims committing more evil acts than Christians or people of any other religion do. Any analysis of the threat from Islamic extremists that starts with an assumption that the religion of Islam results in a disproportionate risk that its followers will commit acts of murder, war, or genocide is invalidated by the massive amount of contrary data.

Don't interpret this position as being unconcerned wit the threat posed by Islamic extremists. My focus on actual, measureable behavior of Muslims as compared to non-Muslims provides a realistic basis for assessing the threat posed by Islamic extremism. I believe that it is a distraction to ignore actual behavior and instead focus on aspects of Islamic scripture we don't like, or on characteristics of Mohammad, or similar arguments against Islam as a whole that resemble plain bigotry more than a rational attempt to understand our enemy and address appropriate corrective actions.

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Hannibal
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Wow... I leave this thread for a few days
(to watch Paul McCartney in Memphis !!! woohoo that was great) and all hell breaks loose!


Anyone wishes to argue with the sane Israeli on how Jewish "paramilitary" organizations are totally different than Hamas/Hezballah ?

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Bud Martin
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Hey Hannibal,

I really like his music too, must have been a great time. [Cool] He's a Brit too, did he say anything political onstage about the incident...LOL, just kidding, he doesn't want any one to go after him fer sure!

I gotta say that these kinds of threads keep my mind going and hopefully will stave off me getting Alzheimer's for as long as possible.

This thread is kind of exciting, so just remember to not let things get too out of control and try to mix in some humor, so we all can have a laugh once in a while!

Viking has to have the most incredible patience and endurance; his remarks are really well thought out! So many people are so passionate about this issue and it’s entertaining to read all of the battles going on.

DO YOUR BEST ORNERIES! [Exploding] [Cool]

Hannibal, I'd like to know the difference?

[ May 29, 2013, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Bud Martin ]

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Viking_Longship
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Al it's incredibly condescending for you to deny that these people might be sufficiently angry about hundreds of thousands of their cooreligionists to really be willing to strike back at the civilization they see as responsible for those deaths.
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I believe that those who focus on Islam as the root cause of Islamic extremists are wrong
Then you really haven't studied the actual religion or the political situation.

quote:
The rate of murders, wars, and genocide committed by Muslims is a valid measure of the relative threat of Islam (and I covered comprehensive data on all three areas).
Only relevent to the discussion if actually done in the name of Islam. Just tallying murders in general really has nothing to do with it. This argument of yours is not valid. Repeating it won't make it valid.

quote:
My focus on actual, measureable behavior of Muslims as compared to non-Muslims provides a realistic basis for assessing the threat posed by Islamic extremism.
You're doing exactly the opposite of that.

quote:
Don't interpret this position as being unconcerned wit the threat posed by Islamic extremists.
Based on your rationale you may as well be.

quote:
believe that it is a distraction to ignore actual behavior and instead focus on aspects of Islamic scripture we don't like, or on characteristics of Mohammad, or similar arguments against Islam as a whole that resemble plain bigotry more than a rational attempt to understand our enemy and address appropriate corrective actions.
And how do we address appropriate corrective actions if we ignore the parts of Islam that might be disturbing to us?

I am going to repeat this one more time Greg. The argument is not "Islam causes people to commit more random acts of violence and makes people evil in general."

That's all you've managed to address. Your argument is NOT relevent Jihadism as movement or how we're supposed to reconcile a culture so outraged by blasphemy with a culture that regards the right to blaspheme as one of our basic rights.

Bigotry is born out of ignorance and fear. I am neither ignorant about muslims nor do I fear them. A reflexive tolerance that goes to great lengths not to see anything negative in the other is just the flip side of bigotry and is just as ignorant.

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AI Wessex
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"Al it's incredibly condescending for you to deny that these people might be sufficiently angry about hundreds of thousands of their cooreligionists to really be willing to strike back at the civilization they see as responsible for those deaths."

Perhaps, but are you aware that there are reports in the British press that Adebolajo was arrested, raped and tortured by Kenyan police in 2010? The British embassy got him out but did not help him challenge the Kenyan government about the abuse, and it is reported that he became much more withdrawn and radicalized when he got home. He attended meetings of the al-Muhajiroun group after his return, which spouted extreme anti-west fundamentalist rhetoric. So, it's possible that the physical abuse he suffered and the propagandist indoctrination he received from that group may have led to an emotional breakdown and his extreme radicalization. Possible, yes?

[ May 30, 2013, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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vegimo
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AI, the reports also say that he was arrested because he was trying to cross from Kenya into Somalia to join al-Shabab. So, it's possible that the radicalization was underway prior to that arrest, yes?
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Bud Martin
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Al,

You might be correct as to why he might have committed the act of murder (though I think its absolutely stupid to target the people that got him out of that country), but mudering an innocent random person is never justifiable for any reason. Why does this have to be pointed out to you at all?

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Viking_Longship
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Al are you starting with the presuposition that one must be crazy to be a murderer?

Vegimo covered the other point I was about to make.

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