Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Immigration and Amnesty (Page 12)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   
Author Topic: Immigration and Amnesty
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Al, in Seneca's defense, I believe he is being consistent. He thinks it's better that people in oppressive regimes suffer and starve without any hope of improvement until they are driven to lash out and destroy their oppressors, because this is how oppression should be remedied.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LetterRip
Member
Member # 310

 - posted      Profile for LetterRip   Email LetterRip   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The tea was dumped by merchants at smugglers whom were having their profits cut into by the tea act

quote:
The protestors who caffeinated Boston Harbor were railing against the Tea Act, which the British government enacted in the spring of 1773. Rather than inflicting new levies, however, the legislation actually reduced the total tax on tea sold in America by the East India Company and would have allowed colonists to purchase tea at half the price paid by British consumers. The Tea Act, though, did leave in place the hated three-pence-per-pound duty enacted by the Townshend Acts in 1767, and it irked colonists as another instance of taxation legislation being passed by Parliament without their input and consent. The principle of self-governance, not the burden of higher taxes, motivated political opposition to the Tea Act.

2. Commercial interests, perhaps more than political principles, motivated many protestors.
The Tea Act was a government bailout for a company on the brink of financial collapse, the flailing East India Company, which was deemed to be, in modern terms, “too big to fail.” The legislation gave the East India Company a virtual monopoly on the American tea trade, allowing it to bypass colonial merchants as middlemen and to even undercut the price of smuggled Dutch tea, which was widely consumed in the colonies. Thus, the Tea Act directly threatened the vested commercial interests of Boston’s wealthy merchants and smugglers, such as John Hancock, who fomented the revolt.

http://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-boston-tea-party

The revolution was on the verge of collapse before the French stepped in and began providing material, guns and gun powder, and hard currency
quote:
[...]Washington declared that unless aid came from France, the army would dissolve and resistance cease. "Unless a capital change takes place soon," he writes in 1781, "it will be impossible for me to maintain our posts and keep the army from dispersing." (lbid., viii, 38, 39.) With melancholy iteration came the statements of the difficulties in which the great patriot was involved, with a scanty army, that was often on the verge of dissolution, usually unpaid and sometimes unfed, with requests for recruits meeting a feeble response, and with a disordered currency, rendering the pay promised the men almost worthless, even if the promise had been kept.
http://www.americanrevolution.org/frconfiles/fr1.html

quote:
1 - "Neutral" port facilities on the Continent before official French alliance with the US, which enabled American ships to take on supplies, ordnance and ammunition, and repairs for both merchant and war ships. This tiny thread of supplies across the Atlantic maintained the Revolutionary Army in a weak but fighting fashion. And it sent John Paul Jones out in the "Bonhomme Richard" to take the Brisih man-o'-war "Serapis" in one of the most dramatic and heartening events of the Revolution at sea.

2 - Money poured from France as "war loans" that actually were never repaid. But this gold purchased nitrate for gunpowder, acres of cloth for uniforms and tents, sheets of tanned skins for leather and shoes, lead for bullets, preserved foods, shaped and refined iron, miles of rope, barrels of tar, and all the other supplies necessary to equip and field an 18th century army. One of the most important purchases from Louis XVI's "loans" was bayonets. For most of the early years of the war, colonial forces facing a British charge could not defend themselves from the cold steel aimed at their faces, necks and bellies.

3 - France's active entry into the war after the great victory at Saratoga neutralized the British Fleet. Over time, even Cornwallis and Howe might have gotten things right and used their forces in better coordination, and could have ultimately destroyed the colonials. First, the French forced the British to abandon the blockade at Newport, Rhode Island. Then the mere threat of de Grasse's ships stopped many British vessels in New York for a vital period - and when de Grasse did arrive off the Chesapeake, he handed the victory to Washington by landing troops and supplies that changed a small besieging colonial force into a large and victorious Allied army.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060617082912AAGkSjg

[ July 03, 2014, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

Posts: 8287 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It occurs to me that if I were running a criminal organization across the Mexico-US border, I'd probably kill anyone I thought was trying to sneak into the US to commit terrorism. My power and livelihood depends on the status quo and nothing would change that faster than terrorists crossing the border.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[LOL]

You think we should depend on the Cartels to run counter terrorism?

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The cartels are multinational corporations, and much larger and better organized than the terrorists. We could probably do worse than pay them to secure the border against terrorists for us.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How to help / reward the cartels without weakening them? After all if they weren't criminals the whole drug business would look entierly different and I got to believe their proffits would suffer.
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What a sick joke. These cartels kill THOUSANDS, and not just because drugs are illegal but they also kill their competitors!

That's quite possibly the most deranged idea I've heard on this website.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D.W.
Member
Member # 4370

 - posted      Profile for D.W.   Email D.W.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just incase you didn't pick up on it; this WAS a sick joke, rather than a serious policy suggestion.
Posts: 4308 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So today Obama announced that he is asking for 3.78 billion dollars from Congress to deal with the huge influx of illegal aliens crossing the border. He announced that he might be looking into changing current policy on how many are deported but that it would not be precondition of his request for the money.

Is anyone surprised that we are being flooded with illegal aliens after years of Obama's refusal to fully enforce our immigration laws?

Secure the border first, then MAYBE we'll talk about the ones who are "here already."

Anything else is just a bait and switch like 1986.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
The cartels are multinational corporations, and much larger and better organized than the terrorists. We could probably do worse than pay them to secure the border against terrorists for us.

[DOH] Only way I think we could do worse than that is pay Al Qaeda to secure our borders.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
[LOL]

You think we should depend on the Cartels to run counter terrorism?

I agree it's a lousy idea but there is precedent. FDR used the Italian mob to secure the eastern docks during WWII. But the Italian mob at that time was rather cuddly compared to our modern cartels, plus the Italian mob hated the Axis because of what Mussolini did in Sicily.

In contrast, there's no ideological or ethnic motivation for any Cartel (let alone the cartels collectively! [Roll Eyes] ) to view Al Qaeda as an enemy.

My view on immigration and amnesty is offer amnesty to illegal immigrants who stay out of crime (other than what's related to their immigration status) and offer information on the coyotes that brought them in. Basically use the immigrants for intelligence on coyotes and cartels.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why does it have to be ideological or ethnic? They have an eminently practical motivation to view any Al Qaeda agents an enemies. Anyone trying to cross the border in order to commit terrorism is an existential threat to the Cartel's cross-border business and therefore an enemy. Well, terrorism that can't be redefined as another skirmish in the War on Drugs.
Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Since the cartels are business entities rather than political, social or cultural groups, profit protection could motivate them to help eliminate terrorists to keep them from messing up their access to US markets. For that we would have to provide some sort of quid pro quo. We've seen in all of our attempts to pick winners or align with the enemies of our enemies in the Mideast that we end up causing more harm and creating more risk down the road than was gained in the effort. Not to mention that the terrorists might make them a better deal at some point.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NobleHunter
Member
Member # 2450

 - posted      Profile for NobleHunter   Email NobleHunter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The point is more that the southern border isn't a wide open door for terrorists. Open or active co-operation with the Cartels is unnecessary as common interest is sufficient.

There are plenty of other reasons to secure the border, though there'd have to be serious nation building in S. America to pull it off.

Posts: 2581 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with the last statement. Locking the door at the border only incents those who want to get across to build better unlocking tools. It's possible we would eliminate the more benign entrants but wouldn't be able to stop the more sophisticated ones. That has a troubling feel.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, let's just ignore all the people that the Cartels murders...

While we're at let's get the mafia to run our witness protection programs too!

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks, that was helpful.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
So today Obama announced that he is asking for 3.78 billion dollars from Congress to deal with the huge influx of illegal aliens crossing the border. He announced that he might be looking into changing current policy on how many are deported but that it would not be precondition of his request for the money.


Not to deal with the huge influx- overall the rate of border crossing is down. He asked for it to deal with the huge processing backlog created by his stepped up enforcement.

quote:
Is anyone surprised that we are being flooded with illegal aliens after years of Obama's refusal to fully enforce our immigration laws?
that question is nonsense because it asserts a condition that's completely at odds with reality.

quote:
Secure the border first, then MAYBE we'll talk about the ones who are "here already."
Accomplish the impossible, then perhaps we can look at measures that actually address the root problems and create insecurity in the first place?
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Securing the border is far from impossible. When I get more time I'll post up some pieces that posit exactly how to do it.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Securing the border is far from impossible. When I get more time I'll post up some pieces that posit exactly how to do it.

And whatever you posit, people will find away around. Especially since nothing you posit can fix people overstaying their Visas, which is still the leading breach in border security.

We're already well past the point of diminishing returns in more investments that have don't affect on the root causes of why people are determined to get there in the first place. If we address those, than no reasonable measures will be effective.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You contend the majority of illegal aliens are those that have overstayed their visas?
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The plurality are, making that tactic the largest single source of them.
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Since the cartels are business entities rather than political, social or cultural groups,

You are already dead wrong there. Even the mafia was as much about culture and politics as it was about profit, and the cartels are even more culture-centered. For hell's sake, they even have their own breakaway religion. It would be no less stupid to call Al Quada a pure profit-driven business model ... see "Holy War, Inc.," written by the last weternet to interview Osama bin Laden.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In Al's defense, he is not the only Western there on this board to have his head in the sand about Islamism ... which is no more of a religion and then it is a socio economic model. In fact, it's main competitor and opponent isnt Jusaism Inside Christianity, but rather Western capitalism and small L liberal democracy.

Please.dont screech at me about islamophobia ... what i said comes directly from Muslims on Muslim boards. Go read a freaking islam 101 page.written by muslims and.they are eager to tell you that Islam is more than just a religion, but involves an entire socioeconomic system.

[ July 09, 2014, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In Al's defense, he is not the only Western there on this board to have his head in the sand about Islamism
With all due respect this and the post before it are themselves dead wrong. It's not worth debating since you have taken such a narrow and hard-edged view on it.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Looking at the past week, it's very clear what's going on here. ICE has been going like gangbusters to bus these kids all over the country and settle them, often without disclosing where they are going. There is obviously no intent to deport the vast majority of them, and my guess is the 3.7 billion he's asked for is just to expand this massive relocation program he's doing to import a whole new generation of democrat voters and strategically locate them in voting districts.

Texas Governor Rick Perry has formally requested Obama to deploy the National Guard and stop the massive invasion of illegal aliens. If we don't, the number could soar into the millions by the end of the year. At this point, our normal border agents aren't even able to patrol or secure the border anymore, and it is functionally wide open in many places right now.

[ July 13, 2014, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mynnion
Member
Member # 5287

 - posted      Profile for Mynnion   Email Mynnion   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I spoke to a friend that lives in Nicaragua today and she told me that the coyotes are making rounds in CA telling families their kids will be allowed to stay. Once they are paid off to take the kids north some of the children are killed and others sold. Nicaragua is starting to crack down by arresting the parents. It will be interesting to see if other CA countries follow. Of course law enforcement anywhere north of Costa Rica is questionable.
Posts: 1271 | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
this massive relocation program he's doing to import a whole new generation of democrat voters and strategically locate them in voting districts
Oh, Seneca, you're adorable.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess when someone's traditional demographic voting base has reduced their birthrate and is aborting their new voters, you have to do something to import replacements right?
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The beauty of it is, I suspect that's actually your honest assessment of the situation. You're that far removed from reality.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
ICE has been going like gangbusters to bus these kids all over the country and settle them, often without disclosing where they are going.
As per the law, which requires that they be safely placed with caregivers until they can be processed by the immigration courts.

quote:
There is obviously no intent to deport the vast majority of them,
Except, of course for the fact that our immigration courts are currently working at full capacity, trying to process them as quickly as it can, given current resource levels.

quote:
and my guess is the 3.7 billion he's asked for is just to expand this massive relocation program he's doing to import a whole new generation of democrat voters and strategically locate them in voting districts.
Speculation of which not only contrary to any evidence that exists, but is also completely absurd because, even if they get de facto residency or even the asylum they should be granted, given the conditions they're refugees from, they still can't actually vote.

quote:
Texas Governor Rick Perry has formally requested Obama to deploy the National Guard and stop the massive invasion of illegal aliens.
Something that doesn't exist- immigration levels are still at a clear low point in recent history- it's just the proportion of children being sent here as refugees from violence in Central America has increased (meaning that the rate of illegal entry by adults has dropped of that much more, even)

And what exactly is he proposing to do with the National Guard? Invade central America and engage in some serious nation building to attenuate the situation that's creating the refugees in the first place? Or is he going to just start shooting kids out of hopes that doing so will let him avoid legal responsibility for seeing them put into proper care until the courts have the capacity to process them?

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The point about putting the guard there is to take the place of border agents who have been pulled away to deal with these kids and which has left our border virtually undefended. If a terrorist was going to sneak across this would be the perfect time.
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah, the point is to deal with a purely made up claim, since our border is even remotely "undefended"- just the opposite, we're still investing unprecedented amounts in patrolling it, even counting the small fraction of resources needed to legally handle the Central American refugees coming in.

[ July 14, 2014, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did you see the news about when Obama was in Texas? Border patrol was so thinly staffed from dealing with the children that in many places they had to pull back 30 to 40 miles from the border...

[ July 14, 2014, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So Harry Reid got on TV and said the "border is secure."

Will ANYONE here make the case that he isn't fully detached from reality?
This is your Senate majority leader...
It seems he missed his calling as the Iraqi Information Minister under Saddam. He'd give Bagdad Bob a run for his money.

Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd actually be more curious to see how you'd make the case that he is "fully detached from reality."
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He's fully detached from one version of reality. No surprise.
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Seneca
Member
Member # 6790

 - posted      Profile for Seneca   Email Seneca       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So you guys believe the border is secure? Will you go on record right here claiming that?
Posts: 6017 | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you believe that 300,000,000 million guns floating around this country are not enough?

I would say that the border is porous, but not out of control. In fact, illegal immigration from Mexico and southward is apparently dropping:
quote:
Census data released Thursday affirm a clear and sustained drop in illegal immigration, ending more than a decade of increases.

The number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. dropped to an estimated 11.1 million last year from a peak of 12 million in 2007, part of an overall waning of Hispanic immigration. For the first time since 1910, Hispanic immigration last year was topped by immigrants from Asia.

Demographers say illegal Hispanic immigration -- 80 percent of all illegal immigration comes from Mexico and Latin America -- isn't likely to approach its mid-2000 peak again, due in part to a weakened U.S. economy and stronger enforcement, but also to a graying of the Mexican population.


Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1