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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Immigration and Amnesty (Page 14)

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Author Topic: Immigration and Amnesty
Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
And yes, these really DO take jobs from American citizens.
They take jobs, but fewer jobs than they create on net by also becoming consumers of goods and services within our economy. Give them the protections needed to work above the table and be able to demand more equitable pay, and they'd create even more jobs.
By that absurd logic we should be happy these rapists and killers were released because they create more jobs for rape counselors and coroners right?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
And yes, these really DO take jobs from American citizens.
They take jobs, but fewer jobs than they create on net by also becoming consumers of goods and services within our economy. Give them the protections needed to work above the table and be able to demand more equitable pay, and they'd create even more jobs.
By that absurd logic we should be happy these rapists and killers were released because they create more jobs for rape counselors and coroners right?
Completely tangential, as that has nothing to do with productive immigration, and everything to do with broken laws that don't let us properly detain them. This would be an issue even without attempting to try to focus more on criminal activity and less on simple paperwork violations. IT does mean that we have more capacity to deal with the criminals for as long as we can instead of having to pass some of them up in favor of people who represent no actual threat to anyone.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
By that absurd logic we should be happy these rapists and killers were released because they create more jobs for rape counselors and coroners right?
Only if you stipulate that creating jobs is more important than preventing rapes and murders, which isn't something I've seen suggested here.
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Mynnion
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It looks like Obama's amnesty that Seneca is so worried about may be a little overstated. I meant to post this last week but life happens.

Pastor Deported

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Mynnion:
It looks like Obama's amnesty that Seneca is so worried about may be a little overstated. I meant to post this last week but life happens.

Pastor Deported

So that single anecdote wipes out the stream of articles with stats in the thousands of rapists, murderers and kidnappers released. Really?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
So that single anecdote wipes out the stream of articles with stats in the thousands of rapists, murderers and kidnappers released.
Not, the fact that hose would have procedurally happened any way, without regard to Obama's change in enforcement priorities- in fact regardless of who was in charge, negates their relevance to anything but the need for an overhaul of the entire system.
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NobleHunter
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Now if only there was an agreement on how to overhaul the system.
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Mynnion
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I dug into the numbers and am a little confused about why these convicted felons are not in prison rather than in ICE custody. Are these individuals who have spent time in prison and were picked up after release?

I am not sure I would lump DUI in with violent dangerous criminals (at least not after a single offense). I know a number of individuals who have stupidly driven when they shouldn't have. None of them are a threat to society.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
So that single anecdote wipes out the stream of articles with stats in the thousands of rapists, murderers and kidnappers released.
Not, the fact that hose would have procedurally happened any way, without regard to Obama's change in enforcement priorities- in fact regardless of who was in charge, negates their relevance to anything but the need for an overhaul of the entire system.
Try reading it again. Pay attention to this section from the previous page:
quote:
Ms. Vaughan said one reason for the drop from 36,000 to about 30,000 is because immigration agents are arresting and detaining fewer aliens in the first place, thanks to President Obama’s new immigration plans.
So the number of illegal alien rapists, murderers, kidnappers magically went down on its own? Wrong. By all accounts due to the net increase in illegal aliens pouring in that number should be higher. We know why its lower.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
So the number of illegal alien rapists, murderers, kidnappers magically went down on its own? Wrong. By all accounts due to the net increase in illegal aliens pouring in that number should be higher.
You mean overall decrease, since, despite hype over a relatively small number of child refugees feeling violence in Central America, overall unauthorized immigration is down, with most of it currently coming from Asia and Pacific Islands.

quote:
So the number of illegal alien rapists, murderers, kidnappers magically went down on its own?
I'd imagine it wen't down along with the overall declind in crime rates- but of course you're also skipping the fact that by the numbers you presented, we're pretty much just talking about DUIs and parking tickets being left to be handled by the normal legal process and not turning into automatic turnovers to wait forever on immigration court.

You're being wonderfully deceptive by focusing on a segment of criminals that don't even make up 5% _the smaller number_ of people released, and very likely have not actually changed in volume related to how often they're perpetrated and caught, while the entire decline could be in DUI and lesser charges without bringing the balance of more severe crimes to more the 5% of the prisoners in question.

It's also not clear, as was pointed out, if these are people who have already served the appropriate sentence for their crimes or not. If not, then I'd say it's another pointer at the need for reform so that we can simply process them for the crimes that they actually committed instead of letting a simple paperwork violation end up effectively protecting them from proper prosecution.

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Seneca
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No. You are wrong. The numbers I have seen and posted here show an increase in the amount of illegal immigration since the low point of the recession. Do you have different numbers to show that it dropped in 2013 and 2014?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
he numbers I have seen and posted here show an increase in the amount of illegal immigration since the low point of the recession. Do you have different numbers to show that it dropped in 2013 and 2014?
I was speaking of from it's peak. I'll grant that it's possible that it's come back in the past year or so, but that's not at all relevant to any of the other points, which is seems you're effectively conceding by picking on that one small technicality.
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Seneca
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No...

It's not a technicality. Illegal immigration is up. You can't cherry-pick a low point from years ago and hang onto that now. Time has passed. The rate has been increasing for several years in a row now.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
It's not a technicality. Illegal immigration is up. You can't cherry-pick a low point from years ago and hang onto that now. Time has passed. The rate has been increasing for several years in a row now.

Sure. I conceded that.
However, it's primarily up from Asia and the PAcific Islands. The vast majority of the people being released were being held because of DUIs or, assumably, less severe violations. You've offered no evidence that INS is picking up fewer of the more severe violators (1000 out of the 30,000 released), when, in fact the policy changes suggest that they're favoring focusing on trying to pick up those violators at the expense of not trying the system up with nearly as many DUIs and parking tickets so that they can't put as many resources into trying to deport the big ticket criminals. You haven't even show that these criminals have not already been sentenced and served the time for their crimes, in which case we have no justification for holding them indefinitely if we can't deport them- in fact such indefinite detention so would amount to a violation of due process and constitutional guarantees regarding justice.

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Pyrtolin
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Also keep in mind that these releases are on a time lag- if we can hold them from a few years before being forced to release them, then the decline in the releases is still an incidental artifact of the overall decline in immigration.
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