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Author Topic: "The new warrior cop is out of control"
philnotfil
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When you are carrying a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

salon.com

quote:
Sal Culosi is dead because he bet on a football game — but it wasn’t a bookie or a loan shark who killed him. His local government killed him, ostensibly to protect him from his gambling habit.

Several months earlier at a local bar, Fairfax County, Virginia, detective David Baucum overheard the thirty-eight-year-old optometrist and some friends wagering on a college football game. “To Sal, betting a few bills on the Redskins was a stress reliever, done among friends,” a friend of Culosi’s told me shortly after his death. “None of us single, successful professionals ever thought that betting fifty bucks or so on the Virginia–Virginia Tech football game was a crime worthy of investigation.” Baucum apparently did. After overhearing the men wagering, Baucum befriended Culosi as a cover to begin investigating him. During the next several months, he talked Culosi into raising the stakes of what Culosi thought were just more fun wagers between friends to make watching sports more interesting. Eventually Culosi and Baucum bet more than $2,000 in a single day. Under Virginia law, that was enough for police to charge Culosi with running a gambling operation. And that’s when they brought in the SWAT team.

On the night of January 24, 2006, Baucum called Culosi and arranged a time to drop by to collect his winnings. When Culosi, barefoot and clad in a T-shirt and jeans, stepped out of his house to meet the man he thought was a friend, the SWAT team began to move in. Seconds later, Det. Deval Bullock, who had been on duty since 4:00 AM and hadn’t slept in seventeen hours, fired a bullet that pierced Culosi’s heart.

On drug raids under the guise of licensure inspections:

quote:
By all appearances, these raids were drug sweeps. Shop owners told the Sentinel that police asked them where they were hiding illegal drugs and weapons. But in the end, thirty-four of the thirty-seven arrests were for “barbering without a license,” a misdemeanor for which only three people have ever served jail time in Florida.
The most disturbing aspect of the Orlando raids was that police didn’t even attempt to obtain a legal search warrant. They didn’t need to, because they conducted the raids in conjunction with the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. Despite the guns and handcuffs, under Florida law these were licensure inspections, not criminal searches, so no warrants were necessary.

That such “administrative searches” have become an increasingly common way for police to get around the Fourth Amendment is bad enough. More disturbing is the amount of force they’re opting to use when they do. In the fall of 2010, police in New Haven, Connecticut, sent a SWAT team to a local bar to investigate reports of underage drinking. Patrons were lined up at gunpoint while cops confiscated cell phones and checked IDs. There have been similar underage drinking SWAT raids on college fraternities. The Atlanta City Council recently agreed to pay a $1 million settlement to the customers and employees of a gay nightclub after a heavy-handed police raid in which police lined up sixty-two people on the floor at gunpoint, searched for drugs, and checked for outstanding warrants and unpaid parking tickets. Police conducted the September 2009 raid after undercover vice cops claimed to have witnessed patrons and employees openly having sex at the club. But the police never obtained a search warrant. Instead, the raid was conducted under the guise of an alcohol inspection. Police made no drug arrests, but arrested eight employees for permit violations.


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djquag1
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You're more likely to be killed by a police officer then a terrorist. Food for thought. That's not to mention the countless beatings and assaults without cause.

I guess it's better that the cops are in control rather then an actual street gang or crime family, because in theory at least they have civilian oversight. It's just that sometimes it gets really hard to tell the police force apart from a gang or Mafioso clan.

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Greg Davidson
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Yes, but you are far more likely to be killed accidentally by a gun than by a police officer or a terrorist
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djquag1
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Ugh. Do we have to bring up guns in every thread? If you want to try banning guns, Greg Davidson, go ahead. You only have the bill of rights and most of the country standing against you, so I'm sure it'll be easy. Restrictions like required registration and, maybe, government subsidized mandatory training classes are fine. You will never, ever take the right of citizens to bear arms away, though, not in this country, no matter how scary you think they are. If that is unacceptable, I believe you have stated you are a professional with a wanted skillset; Austrailia and Britain would be happy to have you.
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djquag1
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That last post is a bit more dickish then I meant it to be. It's just we've been doing the gun debate for a few weeks now. And I wasn't being flip about moving; I am extremely unhappy with the healthcare system here and I am seriously considering moving to Britain. It really is a valid option at times.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
Ugh. Do we have to bring up guns in every thread? If you want to try banning guns, Greg Davidson, go ahead. You only have the bill of rights and most of the country standing against you, so I'm sure it'll be easy. Restrictions like required registration and, maybe, government subsidized mandatory training classes are fine. You will never, ever take the right of citizens to bear arms away, though, not in this country, no matter how scary you think they are. If that is unacceptable, I believe you have stated you are a professional with a wanted skillset; Austrailia and Britain would be happy to have you.

Yeah but the anti-gun types don't like to admit overall violent crime is worse in both of those countries than the US, including beatings and rape.

[ July 07, 2013, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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LetterRip
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Seneca,

quote:
Yeah but the anti-gun types don't like to admit overall violent crime is worse in both of those countries than the US, including beatings and rape.
If you look, the comparisons that show 'higher' for UK are using different definitions. Ie the US using only 'forcible rape of a woman' and the UK using all forms of rape of both men and women.

If you do an apples to apples comparison (ie both forcible rape, or both using the broad definition), then the US has a higher per capita rate for both.

quote:
Until 2012, the FBI only counted "forcible rape" in its violent crime statistics, defining it as "the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will."

The narrow definition has affected the FBI's overall numbers. In 2010, the Chicago Police Department could not include 1,400 sexual assaults in federal numbers because the city's definition of rape was broader than the FBI's definition.

In England and Wales, a person is guilty of rape if "he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of the complainant with his penis, the complainant does not consent and the defendant does not reasonably believe consent has been given," according to the BBC.

With these different definitions in mind, England and Wales reported 14,000 rapes in 2009. Based on a female population of approximately 27 million (although males are included in official reports), that comes out to 51 rapes per 100,000 females.

The U.S. reported 88,097 rapes in 2009, which comes out to 56 rapes per 100,000 females.

Despite having a narrower definition of rape that only includes female victims, the U.S. still has a higher rate of occurrence than England and Wales.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/20549515/do-guns-stop-violence-the-us-has-more-rapes-and-murders-than-uk

I believe that is true for Australia also.

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Greg Davidson
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I am not in favor of banning guns. But when you raise an assertion based on the relative difference between two uncommon events that result in a killing:
quote:
You're more likely to be killed by a police officer then a terrorist. Food for thought.
I am inclined to identify a more common event, accidental shootings.

Nat’l Ctr. for Injury Prevention & Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-Based Injury Statistics Query & Reporting System (WISQARS) Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2010, for National, Regional, and States (Dec. 2012), http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/dataRestriction_inj.html (hereinafter WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States_2010

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by djquag1:
You're more likely to be killed by a police officer then a terrorist. Food for thought.

Would things be better if it was the other way around?

I mean, if the bacon is doing it's job, isnt that what you want to see?

During the first gulf war an american serviceman/woman was more likely to be killed by friendly fire than enemy fire. Was this good or bad?

Where are the numbers for this anyways? What was the sample area/time period? I mean, do the odds change based on where you live? New York City vs Podunk, Nebraska? I suppose this means people living in Podunk shouldnt worry about terrorist attacks. On Sept 11,2001, in New York City, was the possibilty higher for a citizen to be killed by a terrorist or a cop?

I'm not sure what kind of food for thought this is. It lacks taste and is less filling. It is the slim jim of thought food. My brain tummy rebels. If my mind had a tongue I would be brushing it.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
Yes, but you are far more likely to be killed accidentally by a gun than by a police officer or a terrorist

Even more likely to be killed driving to work.

I mean, is the point "the pigs suck!"? Cause somebody could have just come out with that instead of some article from salon.com and interesting snippets of data. I really dont know. No argument. No thesis. No nothing. Just claims.

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AI Wessex
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On the one hand we have a constant stream of theories without facts coming from some people, and Greg counters a little of it with facts without a theory in the hopes that the feckless factless will use their best efforts to construct a theory based on them. Faint hope. We need an extension to the Ornery greeting that can be used like a stamp to routinely attach to some people's arguments, something like: "Nope, Wrong Again!"
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djquag1
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Yes, actually, the point was the pigs do suck. They're just a gang with the power of the state behind them. When I hear that a police officer has been shot and killed, I care about as much as I do when I hear that gang members have been killing and shooting each other. Just violent people getting killed by other violent people.
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djquag1
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AI

The police are violent. The police are corrupt. The police do not have to face justice for their crimes. The story that opened up this thread is just one among countless others.

I'm not particularly inclined to google police brutality for you so I can provide some links as "facts." If you want to trust your local police, go ahead. Kiss their ass and don't make eye contact, and you should be fine.

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AI Wessex
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"Yes, actually, the point was the pigs do suck. They're just a gang with the power of the state behind them. When I hear that a police officer has been shot and killed, I care about as much as I do when I hear that gang members have been killing and shooting each other. Just violent people getting killed by other violent people."

The problem with reading too quickly is that I got the exact wrong impression from your post the first time through. Now I see that you are lumping police in with violent criminals because they all carry guns and shoot and are shot. That's a tepid thesis of your own. Why such a low opinion of The Men in Blue?

[Edit: And now I see your next post:
quote:
The police are violent. The police are corrupt. The police do not have to face justice for their crimes. The story that opened up this thread is just one among countless others.

I'm not particularly inclined to google police brutality for you so I can provide some links as "facts." If you want to trust your local police, go ahead. Kiss their ass and don't make eye contact, and you should be fine.

That's quite a sweeping judgment. What if all the police instantly disappeared? What would change?

[ July 08, 2013, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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djquag1
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Google police brutality. That's why I dislike the men in blue.

We'd have a different gang to protect us, so long as we showed them fear and deference. Think along the lines of neighborhoods who were protected by the Mafia in the early 20th century.

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djquag1
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It's really the best job in the world if you're a psychopath. You get to beat people whenever you feel like it, and unless you're in front of a few non-police witnesses you get to shoot people without consequences as well. Your fellow police officers will lie to cover your ass (the "blue line") and the justice system and society in general almost always give the cops a pass for anything, even when the excuse is paper thin. The most you get is a day or two of outrage and then the cop finishes his two week paid suspension and comes back to work.
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D.W.
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philnotfil, you should make sure G3 hasn't patented the process of placing a boxed "Do it yourself thread implosion kit" then calmly backing out the door to watch from a safe distance.

The exercise never ceases to impress. No opinion explicitly stated required!

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Wayward Son
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The question is not whether the police sometimes get out of control and abuse their authority. That can (and doubtlessly will) happen whenever a group is given authority.

The question is whether there is a better system for law enforcement, or how we can make this system better.

Yes, there are abuses. How frequently do they occur, and how can we prevent them?

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djquag1
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Wayward

I agree that a police force is necessary for society to function. Likewise, the production of my bodily waste is necessary for my body to function without dying. And yet I have no great love or esteem for my crap, and generally wish to spend as little time around it as possible.

One of the problems is the nature of police investigations. Police forces are loyal to and protective of their own, just like any other gang. We can't depend on their internal affairs division to be doing the investigations on their own officers. Even the prosecutor's office is usually too close to home.

I don't think this is technically feasible yet, but if I had my way every single cop would have a microphone and, if possible, a camera on their person every moment that they're on duty. These recordings would be saved and held not by the police, but by an independent civilian watchdog group or organization. Then they could be used to verify the cop's story regarding any incident of police violence, or civilian complaint of misconduct, intimidation, harassment, or blackmail.

This still wouldn't be perfect, especially given our society's reflexive worship of the police, but it would be a damned sight better then what we have now, which basically boils down to people taking the cop's word on what happened every damned time, because he's a cop and the victim must have deserved it.

You'd really have to trust the third party storing the files, though. All too often a dashboard video that would have condemned a cop manages to get "lost."

[ July 08, 2013, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: djquag1 ]

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NobleHunter
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quote:
I don't think this is technically feasible yet
It will be in a year or two. Politically feasible is another question.

Though with current recording equipment, I've heard of a number of cases where the critical moments weren't recorded or were otherwise lost (conveniently or not). I'm tempted to say that should be grounds for summary dismissal, regardless of what the investigation/lawsuit/trial find. ETA: Appeals for technical difficulties would be permissable but require substantial evidence to support the claim.

Constant recording would also prevent harrassment of cops by false claims, which I think contributes to their reflexive disregard of complaints.

[ July 08, 2013, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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TomDavidson
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I honestly believe that one of the most obvious use cases for something like Google Glass would be law enforcement -- not only being able to provide timely information and facial recognition to them, but to record all interactions with the public. The tech isn't quite there, and mounting it in a way that wouldn't provide a liability in a physical confrontation is still a real puzzle, but I think it's an inevitability.
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G3
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
philnotfil, you should make sure G3 hasn't patented the process of placing a boxed "Do it yourself thread implosion kit" then calmly backing out the door to watch from a safe distance.

The exercise never ceases to impress. No opinion explicitly stated required!

[LOL]
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