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Author Topic: Well at least he tried
D.W.
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Republican Rep. Justin Amash of Michigan, chief sponsor of the repeal effort, said his aim was to end the indiscriminate collection of Americans' phone records.

His measure, offered as an addition to a $598.3 billion defense spending bill for 2014, would have canceled the statutory authority for the NSA program, ending the agency's ability to collect phone records and metadata under the USA Patriot Act unless it identified an individual under investigation.

The House later voted to pass the overall defense bill, 315-109.


Full story

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LetterRip
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Personally I think it was allowed to be voted on because it was garunteed not to be passed. So allowing a vote lets congressman who need to look like they oppose government intrusiveness and congressmen who need to look like they support 'protecting us against the terrorists' to vote as a meaningless gesture to include in their campaigns.
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Seneca
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Here is the breakdown on who voted which way, very pissed that my rep. voted against it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/amash-amendment-roll-call-vote_n_3648737.html

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DarkJello
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Doc Hastings of Washington voted to continue NSA spying. 4th A be darned! [Frown]
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AI Wessex
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This subject will never be heard of again, because this is just an example of how the flood of technological innovation is inundating society. It will get much, much worse and never get better, but the government won't be the biggest violators of your privacy or intruders into your thoughts and actions. Every web page you visit, every GPS location update your phone sends, every tweet and facebook post, and in the not too distant future every purchase you make will be in the hands of software companies you have agreed to let have it all.

To go underground you'll have to cancel all your credit cards, never purchase anything except in cash, encrypt every email, tweet and post you make, use disposable phones with voice encryption, don't drive on highways or city streets with license plate cameras, wear disguises when you walk around in public, and if you get sick treat yourself and don't go to a doctor or hospital. If you have kids, keep them out of sight and home-schooled, and move every 6 months to another anonymous undisclosed location.

None of that will help in the end, but at least it will make living more interesting. You'll know you slipped up somewhere when you wake up one morning and find a circular offering you a 20% discount coupon for Modern Urban Survivalist Magazine on your doorstep.

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Seneca
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Last time I checked private corporations didn't have the authority and power to initiate rendition and execute you or send you to jail.

I could care less if I am sent ads, that's a voluntary relationship between me and the corporations. The government has too much power to be trusted with our information, in addition to that they are strictly forbidden by the Constitution from doing EXACTLY what they are doing. The founding fathers specifically wrote the 4th Amendment to prevent large dragnet-type searches that are the same as what the NSA are doing. Back then the British called them "Writs of Assistance" for creation of "large search zones."

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Pete at Home
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I suspect that even the NSA would have a hard time locating my place of residence at this time. Unfortunately I'm not up to anything particularly interesting.
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AI Wessex
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K-Mart may think otherwise.
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PSRT
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quote:
I could care less if I am sent ads, that's a voluntary relationship between me and the corporations.
I haven't voluntarily seen an advertisement in a long, long time. And yet, I am still seeing advertisements. I'll let you know the next time I say to myself "Huh, I think I would like to see a stupid McDonald's advertisement," but I wouldn't hold my breath in anticipation if I were you.
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Pyrtolin
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I don't like the lack of oversight and transparency over the system, but this is outright inaccurate as far as this specific activity is concerned:
quote:
. The founding fathers specifically wrote the 4th Amendment to prevent large dragnet-type searches that are the same as what the NSA are doing.
There is no search involved, just blind collection of data that has been established for decades to effectively be accessible information. They have to go a step further even, and can't actually search the information without a warrant, nevermind just arbitrarily shuffle through it.

I don't see a problem with that as it's technically structured, but what they should absolutely be required to do is publish a list of every time the database was accessed to read information, and a correlation of what warrant that access is connected to. If the specific terms of the search and the details of the warrant need to be classified for operational security, that's fine, but it would create a direct path to hold them accountable for any unauthorized access to the data.

PRISM is a bit more concerning if it actually has a way to access anything other than public information and plain-text communications (it does, at least, highlight the importance of making progress on lishing a new protocol for email that actually has some level of transmission security built in) but, as far as I can tell, this particular amendment didn't actually address it, just the phone log database.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Last time I checked private corporations didn't have the authority and power to initiate rendition and execute you or send you to jail.

I could care less if I am sent ads, that's a voluntary relationship between me and the corporations.

How voluntary?

quote:
The government has too much power to be trusted with our information, in addition to that they are strictly forbidden by the Constitution from doing EXACTLY what they are doing. The founding fathers specifically wrote the 4th Amendment to prevent large dragnet-type searches that are the same as what the NSA are doing. Back then the British called them "Writs of Assistance" for creation of "large search zones."
While the analogy is valid, and while I agree that the 4th Amendment is at play here, having your phone communications, email, and metadata sorted through, is noticeably less invasive than having your actual home invaded and torn through by redcoats with muskets, and you person, and the person of your spouse and children also searched.

Pyr's got an interesting point. Is a mass replication and storage, actually equivalent to a 4th amendment search or seizure? Depends on whether we read in a penumbra between search and seizure.

[ July 25, 2013, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Seneca
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quote:
There is no search involved, just blind collection of data that has been established for decades to effectively be accessible information. They have to go a step further even, and can't actually search the information without a warrant, nevermind just arbitrarily shuffle through it.

I don't see a problem with that as it's technically structured, but what they should absolutely be required to do is publish a list of every time the database was accessed to read information, and a correlation of what warrant that access is connected to. If the specific terms of the search and the details of the warrant need to be classified for operational security, that's fine, but it would create a direct path to hold them accountable for any unauthorized access to the data.

PRISM is a bit more concerning if it actually has a way to access anything other than public information and plain-text communications (it does, at least, highlight the importance of making progress on lishing a new protocol for email that actually has some level of transmission security built in) but, as far as I can tell, this particular amendment didn't actually address it, just the phone log database.

You trust the government NOT to use that information without necessary justification AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE IT? You are emprically proven wrong by history. Historically, when the government has power or information, they will use both even if they are gathered illegally. This is why countless court cases are thrown out by judges because police gathered information illegally without a warrant. What makes the NSA different from all the law enforcement officers who have already broken the law?

quote:
While the analogy is valid, and while I agree that the 4th Amendment is at play here, having your phone communications, email, and metadata sorted through, is noticeably less invasive than having your actual home invaded and torn through by redcoats with muskets, and you person, and the person of your spouse and children also searched.
Why are they gathering it? They know more and more people are moving away from physical communication and that most meaningful, important communication is electronic. This is a serious affront to our liberties and people are not taking it seriously enough.


Also, the last time I checked, ads can't kill or torture you, whereas the government can, and by mistake:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/khaled-el-masri_n_2293064.html

[ July 25, 2013, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Pete at Home
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"You trust the government NOT to use that information without necessary justification AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE IT?"

No. And my answer was no from fifth word. If the question starts "you trust the government to" then my answer is no. Our whole system of government is based on distrust. That's why we have federalism and separation of powers. Checks and balances.

I'm not sure what the checks and balances are in the Prism system. I agree that it deserves scrutiny. Like Jefferson said, eternal vigilance.

quote:
Why are they gathering it? They know more and more people are moving away from physical communication and that most meaningful, important communication is electronic. This is a serious affront to our liberties and people are not taking it seriously enough.
That may be. But if you're going to make a serious 4th amendment argument, then you need to get off the high horse for a moment and contemplate whether we're dealing with a search or a seizure. That's what I'm doing, which means that from my perspective, I'm taking the problem more seriously than you are: I'm looking for an actual remedy.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"You trust the government NOT to use that information without necessary justification AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE IT?"

No. And my answer was no from fifth word. If the question starts "you trust the government to" then my answer is no. Our whole system of government is based on distrust. That's why we have federalism and separation of powers. Checks and balances.

I'm not sure what the checks and balances are in the Prism system. I agree that it deserves scrutiny. Like Jefferson said, eternal vigilance.

quote:
Why are they gathering it? They know more and more people are moving away from physical communication and that most meaningful, important communication is electronic. This is a serious affront to our liberties and people are not taking it seriously enough.
That may be. But if you're going to make a serious 4th amendment argument, then you need to get off the high horse for a moment and contemplate whether we're dealing with a search or a seizure. That's what I'm doing, which means that from my perspective, I'm taking the problem more seriously than you are: I'm looking for an actual remedy.
quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]
Why do I need to distinguish between a search and seizure? Both are covered by the 4th...

It doesn't look like you're taking the problem "more seriously" than me, it looks like you're grasping for legal justifications that don't exist. To quote Denzel, explain this to me like I'm a 4 year old...

[ July 25, 2013, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
You trust the government NOT to use that information without necessary justification AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE IT? You are emprically proven wrong by history. Historically, when the government has power or information, they will use both even if they are gathered illegally. This is why countless court cases are thrown out by judges because police gathered information illegally without a warrant. What makes the NSA different from all the law enforcement officers who have already broken the law?
You seem to like ignoring half of what I was.

I explicitly said we shouldn't trust them- in fact we should require open auditing of access to the information and correlation with warrants so that we can be sure that they're not abusing it.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
You trust the government NOT to use that information without necessary justification AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE IT? You are emprically proven wrong by history. Historically, when the government has power or information, they will use both even if they are gathered illegally. This is why countless court cases are thrown out by judges because police gathered information illegally without a warrant. What makes the NSA different from all the law enforcement officers who have already broken the law?
You seem to like ignoring half of what I was.

I explicitly said we shouldn't trust them- in fact we should require open auditing of access to the information and correlation with warrants so that we can be sure that they're not abusing it.

Why would you trust them even with open auditing? Has open auditing of police departments stopped LEOs from unconstitutional searches and seizures? How long have police departments been overseen and audited for this and yet it hasn't stopped? Why trust a national, centralized organization that can do it with almost no man power (almost all fully automated) not to abuse this process when it is made so easy? At least with the police you might be able to stall them at your door while you call HQ and try to get a desk sergeant on the line who may be able to reign in an ignorant deputy.

The NSA lied to Congress and told them that this wasn't even going on until Snowden finally leaked everything.

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DarkJello
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I am glad Snowden broke this egg open in the public sphere.

I won't say he is a hero, but is he really the villain in this scenario?

The big government will continue to trample, like a bull in a china shop.

http://april--morgan.blogspot.com/2013/06/bull-in-china-shop-strikes-again.html

You are welcome! [Wink]

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AI Wessex
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Nothing will change because of what Snowden did, not in the US or any other country. It may have a rebound effect of peeling back the phony curtain of secrecy between countries so that they now are willing to acknowledge some of what they are doing and offer to share/trade information more openly.

He's neither a hero nor a villain, just another blip on the infotainment marquee. I expect Russia will vacuum his brain and put him in storage somewhere. Glenn Greenwald will become famous for exposing information in a way that will ultimately be viewed as pornography, so he won't thrive because of this, either.

Don't get me wrong, btw. I think it's wrong that the NSA is collecting all this information and more sunlight is needed, similar to Pyrtolin's suggestions. It's just that the hullabaloo is really just a token outrage that will make absolutely no difference.

Seriously, K-Mart, Google and Verizon are all deeper into your pants than the NSA and you somehow think that's just fine.

[ July 25, 2013, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Seneca
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Where's the statute or provision in the constitution that allows K-Mart, Google and Verizon to jail you, torture you, rendition you or execute you? I can't seem to find it...
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AI Wessex
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Those ads are torture, having to watch commercials is like being in jail, luring me to their stores in the hopes of a discount on something they have convinced me I need or should want is like rendition.

(More seriously), they can't do those things for real (at least not yet), but they have infiltrated your mind every waking minute of your day and you don't seem to mind or even notice.

That's kind of sad.

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D.W.
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K-mart sold me the pants. The pockets hold my Verizon phone which runs my Google software. I had a choice. They may spam me but I don't see how it's the same (or worse?) to you.

You are likely right that the "hullabaloo" will die down. I'm going to vote against all the people who voted against this amendment. Given how even the split is however I'd be stupid to believe that even if I pick all winners that I would change the final result of another amendment attempting the same by much.

Outrage paired with a sense of helplessness and apathy does not equal change. I'm not QUITE cynical enough to believe the vote was just for show. I was pleasantly surprised to see a few representatives try and stand up for us.

If only our president could try to pitch why this is needed to the people instead of a select few in classified meetings. Apparently he has more important things to explain to us. If the threat is so scary that it's worth sacrificing our freedoms for then I want to know. Scare me Mr. President, I'm ready. Otherwise I'll fear you instead.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
K-mart sold me the pants. The pockets hold my Verizon phone which runs my Google software. I had a choice. They may spam me but I don't see how it's the same (or worse?) to you.

You are likely right that the "hullabaloo" will die down. I'm going to vote against all the people who voted against this amendment. Given how even the split is however I'd be stupid to believe that even if I pick all winners that I would change the final result of another amendment attempting the same by much.

Outrage paired with a sense of helplessness and apathy does not equal change. I'm not QUITE cynical enough to believe the vote was just for show. I was pleasantly surprised to see a few representatives try and stand up for us.

If only our president could try to pitch why this is needed to the people instead of a select few in classified meetings. Apparently he has more important things to explain to us. If the threat is so scary that it's worth sacrificing our freedoms for then I want to know. Scare me Mr. President, I'm ready. Otherwise I'll fear you instead.

We were told originally by the government that the terrorists were all purposefully low-tech cave dwellers passing hand written notes person to person, and so 9-11 couldn't have been predicted, and yet, then they passed the Patriot Act and started the internet carnivores and roving warrantless wiretapping.

I submit that you can defeat ANY NSA effort by simply having a human code that was originally developed face to face, written on notebook paper and used to code emails and phone calls that otherwise sound innocuous. Even the meta-data can be made useless by disposable cellphones or changing emails addresses.

There is no practical use to the government's program, and it's obvious they lied about how effective it's been. First it was 5 attacks they stopped, then it was 12, then it was 20, now it's supposedly 50. They are clearly making stuff up and then saying "sorry, it's classified, you'll just have to trust us."

The main lesson from the 9-11 report was that our HUMINT assets were too low and we were relying on technology too much. We need CIA agents and counter-terrorism agents on the ground and infiltrating these groups, not reading America's email and looking at our browsing history.

[ July 25, 2013, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
If only our president could try to pitch why this is needed to the people instead of a select few in classified meetings. Apparently he has more important things to explain to us. If the threat is so scary that it's worth sacrificing our freedoms for then I want to know. Scare me Mr. President, I'm ready. Otherwise I'll fear you instead.

I fear him and every other big government politician. They always want more, "for the greater good" of course.
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D.W.
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How many participants do you think it would take to neuter the threat of reprisal and to make obvious the fact that it was a protest if you intentionally attempted to trigger false positives for domestic spying? Not threats per say but things like conversations that may have key words or phrases in innocuous context for emails. Things like everyone picking a set time and picking a number at random in some possibly suspicious country they have no ties to, saying “hi”, give them the phone number of your state representative without any explanation, then hang up. (curiosity has got to net a few returned calls to the mysterious number)

Would thousands be enough or would there be reprisals for wasting the government’s resources? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Would the attempt to organize something like this provide the perfect cover for actual nefarious communications? Would this be “aiding the enemy”?

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Seriously, K-Mart, Google and Verizon are all deeper into your pants than the NSA and you somehow think that's just fine.
Verizon can't take my daughter away and put me in prison, even kill me unless the state is complicit. The state can do all of that regardless of how Verizon feels about it.

How do you not get that?

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Don't get me wrong, btw. I think it's wrong that the NSA is collecting all this information and more sunlight is needed, similar to Pyrtolin's suggestions. It's just that the hullabaloo is really just a token outrage that will make absolutely no difference.


There would be no more sunlight without this hullabaloo.
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DarkJello
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Google is in my pants? Kmart is fondling my wife? Where are Verizons' extremities?

Are any of them stealing my labor and giving it to takers? Do they constantly tell people with my complexion we are racist? Can they legally imprison or kill me and mine? And do you think they are the real cause of America's decline? In short, it is much, much, much easier to avoid/limit a company's influence as compared to an ever enlarging government--of despair and incompetence. Savvy?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Where's the statute or provision in the constitution that allows K-Mart, Google and Verizon to jail you, torture you, rendition you or execute you? I can't seem to find it...

WITHOUT agreeing with the extremity of what's been said for the left, your question is poorly phrased, Seneca, and leads to misunderstanding about how the Constitution works.

The 13th and 21st Amendment are the ONLY constitutional provisions that constrain any US corporation.

Historically, the Letters of Marque and Reprisal sections of the constitution have been used to allow Congress to Authorize the president to license corporations to jail, imprison, and execute you.

While those provisions have not been used since long before Verison et al became active, there's nothing to stop them from investing in American corporate prisons. I've visited one repeatedly, as an attorney. In order to maximize profits, the private corporate prisons keep people in solitary confinement for months at a time, to free up beds so they can collect more of your tax dollars. While the prison I visited was a state prison, the state contracts out to the feds, and two of the inmates that I spoke to were federal prisoners.

Keeping someone in solitary confinement for 9 months at a time over a contraband cell phone is, in my opinion, something like torture. If you gave me to choose 15 minutes of waterboarding over nine months solitary, I'd take the waterboarding. Long term solitary people tend to lose it.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Where's the statute or provision in the constitution that allows K-Mart, Google and Verizon to jail you, torture you, rendition you or execute you? I can't seem to find it...

WITHOUT agreeing with the extremity of what's been said for the left, your question is poorly phrased, Seneca, and leads to misunderstanding about how the Constitution works.

The 13th and 21st Amendment are the ONLY constitutional provisions that constrain any US corporation.

Historically, the Letters of Marque and Reprisal sections of the constitution have been used to allow Congress to Authorize the president to license corporations to jail, imprison, and execute you.

While those provisions have not been used since long before Verison et al became active, there's nothing to stop them from investing in American corporate prisons. I've visited one repeatedly, as an attorney. In order to maximize profits, the private corporate prisons keep people in solitary confinement for months at a time, to free up beds so they can collect more of your tax dollars. While the prison I visited was a state prison, the state contracts out to the feds, and two of the inmates that I spoke to were federal prisoners.

Keeping someone in solitary confinement for 9 months at a time over a contraband cell phone is, in my opinion, something like torture. If you gave me to choose 15 minutes of waterboarding over nine months solitary, I'd take the waterboarding. Long term solitary people tend to lose it.

Absurd.

Where are the statutes or provisions in the Model Penal Code for private corporations having privilege and unilateral authority to arrest and jail you? You are equivocating private supply of government requisitioned prisons to private entities being able to act outside the law?!

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Viking_Longship
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Why are we chasing this rabbit? Government and business aren't opposite poles.
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Pete at Home
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I made no such equvalence. Think harder.

All I did was answer your question, Provided the examples that you said we're not there, And told you ride out that you'd ask your question wrong. Like I already said I agree with the point you're trying to make. But you made it badly by asking the wrong questions.

quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Where's the statute or provision in the constitution that allows K-Mart, Google and Verizon to jail you, torture you, rendition you or execute you? I can't seem to find it...

WITHOUT agreeing with the extremity of what's been said for the left, your question is poorly phrased, Seneca, and leads to misunderstanding about how the Constitution works.

The 13th and 21st Amendment are the ONLY constitutional provisions that constrain any US corporation.

Historically, the Letters of Marque and Reprisal sections of the constitution have been used to allow Congress to Authorize the president to license corporations to jail, imprison, and execute you.

While those provisions have not been used since long before Verison et al became active, there's nothing to stop them from investing in American corporate prisons. I've visited one repeatedly, as an attorney. In order to maximize profits, the private corporate prisons keep people in solitary confinement for months at a time, to free up beds so they can collect more of your tax dollars. While the prison I visited was a state prison, the state contracts out to the feds, and two of the inmates that I spoke to were federal prisoners.

Keeping someone in solitary confinement for 9 months at a time over a contraband cell phone is, in my opinion, something like torture. If you gave me to choose 15 minutes of waterboarding over nine months solitary, I'd take the waterboarding. Long term solitary people tend to lose it.

Absurd.

Where are the statutes or provisions in the Model Penal Code for private corporations having privilege and unilateral authority to arrest and jail you? You are equivocating private supply of government requisitioned prisons to private entities being able to act outside the law?!


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RedVW on a Laptop
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The concern of corporations having the data isn't the real issue. The real issue is the government running prism like programs and then turning to corporations and demanding our individual digital fingerprints to allow prism data to be fully identified and actionable.

It was one thing when the baby bells all allowed the NSA to monitor phone exchanges. They created web relationships between calling and receiving phone sets. But they didnt have the ability to know content due to then technology and warrant restrictions.

Now technology allows capture of practically all information transfer. The ability to drop off the earth is almost impossible.

Pete your phone call the other day would have been enough to locate you within 3 feet. And even without your identy being known, your actual identity would have been discovered by how you fit into my digital footprint.

For fun I now go to luck at nuclear warhead theory and genetic research into unicorns.

I'm taking the tact that the more random my signature is and the larger it is the more useless it becomes as a tool to the nsa

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Pete at Home
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"Pete your phone call the other day would have been enough to locate you within 3 feet."

Phone's not mine or in my name. But I guess they could run voice recognition software.

Our legend of the unicorn came from the Chinese, and the Chinese still know that the unicorn is the Javan Rhinoceros. Get those genes before it goes extinct.

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RedVW on a Laptop
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Yes but with my digital fingerprint they could easily extrapolate your identity probability. They would then confirm it by simply following emails, Facebook, and phone call records based on my actions with the interaction with your digital fingerprint.

Without having listened to the content of our conversation they would have been able to identify you and then ultimately confirm it by backtracking the digital finger print of the phone you used.

Plus the fact the preamble acknowledgement responce from my phone would have sent your unencrypted name identity my phone has assigned to your number. So even if you had caller identification acknowledgement set to private, the secret identity bit was still unset meaning the NSA would just have to look at the phone transaction record to know pete called Greg and they were both at a Leviticus location when it occurred.

The only thing they couldn't confirm would be if it were actually us that were in the call. Likely they could extrapolate with high certainty that I was party to the conversation just by subsequent digital exchanges I later made. You didn't make any further digital exchanges except 1 that I know of. And likely that one additional call would confirm you were the one on the phone with me earlier.

But even if they couldn't extrapolate it from your second call, the fact that my identy could be almost certainly verified would mean yours could be infered as also highly likely.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Why are we chasing this rabbit? Government and business aren't opposite poles.

Agreed. My frustration is with those that insist business is the devil and government is our only salvation.

It really does strike me as the new, cool, "religion that is not called a religion but is a religion" religion.


Pete and Red:

What is this talk of unicorns, Leviticus, and such?

[ July 27, 2013, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: DarkJello ]

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RedVW on a Laptop
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It should have been about how insipid my auto correct is...,
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by RedVW on a Laptop:
It should have been about how insipid my auto correct is...,

Perchance you are both secret operatives, using coded messages, for a nefarious purpose.
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Funean
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I demand to know more about any entity that uses Pete and Red as operatives. This could change *everything*!
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DJQuag
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Count me among those who consider Snowden to be a hero.

Corporations own our government, so there really isn't as much of a gap between them as some people seem to think.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Where's the statute or provision in the constitution that allows K-Mart, Google and Verizon to jail you, torture you, rendition you or execute you? I can't seem to find it...

The constitution doesn't address corporations at all, nevermind specify or deny any powers to them. We have, over the years put regulations in place that have taken such powers away from corporations because of how freedoms to do such things eventually created enough outcry to ban them.
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