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Author Topic: forget PRISM, say hello to XKeyscore
AI Wessex
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Did someone say they like Michael Savage and that he seems reasonable to them? I only ask because Savage has explained why the terror alert has been raised for our mideast embassies:
quote:
Erstwhile television host and right-wing shock jock Michael Savage — whose real name is Michael Weiner — expressed skepticism on Saturday about the weekend’s Middle East terrorism alert, which has closed U.S. embassies throughout the region. According to Mediaite, Savage said that rather than a real heightened possibility of terrorist action, the threat announcement is actually an attempt by the “first Muslim president” to “justify spying” on U.S. citizens.

“Do you believe this terror alert is real, or an attempt to justify spying on American citizens?” Savage asked during the broadcast. “Why should I believe this at all?”

A caller asked Savage about a right-trope currently circulating, that the Obama family celebrates the Islamic festival of Ramadan, but not Christmas.

“He’s the first Muslim president, everybody knows that,” Savage insisted “Why are we even mincing words about it? His first father was an African Muslim. His second father was an Indonesian Muslim. Isn’t it true that most boys are impressed by their father’s religion, practice their father’s religion? Why are we shocked by this? Why is it even a question?”


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Seneca
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http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/ubb/search.html

Nope.

[ August 05, 2013, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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Obama is many things to many people. Body language, tone, vocab, etc...

What kind of muslim and/or christian and/or atheist and/or agnostic is Obama? That is the question.

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AI Wessex
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I hope you're joking, because frankly anybody who suggests that he is *any* kind of Muslim is stupid and bigoted, not someone I would trust to talk with about most things. Speculating on whether he is agnostic or atheist is also weird, since he has been very clear about his personal beliefs.

I know such people are "out there", and also show up on Ornery from time to time.

Seneca, what strawman?

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
I hope you're joking, because frankly anybody who suggests that he is *any* kind of Muslim is stupid and bigoted, not someone I would trust to talk with about most things. Speculating on whether he is agnostic or atheist is also weird, since he has been very clear about his personal beliefs.

Newsflash: People don't always tell the truth. Saying "these are my personal beliefs" does not make it so.

I agree with some doctrine of each and every major religion, thus I don't consider myself ONLY this and nothing of that. Obama has plenty of intelligence, and thus probably does have a complex set of philosophies and beliefs. My point is that it does not matter if he is a tiny bit muslim. Not sure why you are so confident here, when in the atheist thread you said something along the lines of nobody should ever be too certain of a topic. Savvy?

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D.W.
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Is it strange that I feel you just made an excellent point while discrediting yourself? Quite possibly an indication of my faults more than yours, but there it is.
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AI Wessex
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"I agree with some doctrine of each and every major religion, thus I don't consider myself ONLY this and nothing of that. Obama has plenty of intelligence, and thus probably does have a complex set of philosophies and beliefs. My point is that it does not matter if he is a tiny bit muslim."

Fascinating. Not in a good way, but illuminating.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
"I agree with some doctrine of each and every major religion, thus I don't consider myself ONLY this and nothing of that. Obama has plenty of intelligence, and thus probably does have a complex set of philosophies and beliefs. My point is that it does not matter if he is a tiny bit muslim."

Fascinating. Not in a good way, but illuminating.

"Not in a good way" for me, or for you?


And here is Mr. Obama clarifying the non-spying spying on all Americans just today:

Leno asked the president about the ongoing skepticism for the NSA surveillance program that collects phone record metadata in order to prevent terrorist attacks. Obama firmly stated that the government has not encroached on the privacy of citizens, and that they have not “abused these powers” in any way. He added that America does not “have a domestic spying program,” but intelligence gathering is “a critical component” for a counter-terrorism program.

‘What we do have are some mechanisms where we can track a phone number or an email address that we know is connected to some sort of terrorist threat, and, you know, that information is useful,” Obama said. “But, you know, what I’ve said before, you know, and I want to make sure I repeat and that is we should be skeptical about the potential encroachments on privacy. None of the revelations show that the government has actually abused these powers, but they are pretty significant powers.”

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/06/obama-on-leno-surveillance-russias-gay-crackdown-and-trayvon-martin/

Super! No domestic spying program. My fears are all abated. Woot. Yeah for America. And for Leno. And freedom.

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AI Wessex
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Also interesting that you get your news from Leno, who has proven to be a dogged and well-informed prober of fact.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Also interesting that you get your news from Leno, who has proven to be a dogged and well-informed prober of fact.

It is my fault Mr. Obama appeared on Leno's show??

Stick with the facts, drop the vendetta stuff already.

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Seneca
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We have no choice but to get our news from late night comedy as Obama refuses more and more to deal with any real reporters that might ask him hard, unprepared questions.
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AI Wessex
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Seneca, can we agree that there is nothing that Obama would do that you wouldn't find fault with?
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Seneca, can we agree that there is nothing that Obama would do that you wouldn't find fault with?

[DOH]
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AI Wessex
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Wutcher problem? I think it's a fair question since I don't think I've ever seen him comment positively on anything Obama has done.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkJello:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Seneca, can we agree that there is nothing that Obama would do that you wouldn't find fault with?

[DOH]
You see the logic? Apparently if you don't complain constantly about what a bad President Bush is you aren't allowed to criticize Obama.
Also, if you can't have a "balanced" approach and find something to praise Obama about then likewise, your criticism there too is apparently invalid.

Makes me wonder how anyone ever managed to criticize anyone...

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Wutcher problem? I think it's a fair question since I don't think I've ever seen him comment positively on anything Obama has done.

Fair enough.

Seneca should post 3 positive things about Obama, and then we can get back to virtual crucifixion.

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D.W.
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Directed at most people that question would be nothing more than a jab. Directed at you Seneca, I think it’s legitimate. Your posts do give the perception that you criticize Obama at every turn. Maybe you have embraced the inverse of the advice my mother gave me as a youngster, “If you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all.” Not the best advice, but concerning the president you appear to have embraced the opposite tactic.

You don’t have to meet a criteria to criticize anyone. You can however gain credibility if your critiques are not 100% in line with partisan politics regardless of the circumstances surrounding what you are critiquing. For all I know you agree with Obama on all topics but those you voice opposition to here. We’d never know because you dodge questions like the one AI presented.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Directed at most people that question would be nothing more than a jab. Directed at you Seneca, I think it’s legitimate. Your posts do give the perception that you criticize Obama at every turn. Maybe you have embraced the inverse of the advice my mother gave me as a youngster, “If you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all.” Not the best advice, but concerning the president you appear to have embraced the opposite tactic.

You don’t have to meet a criteria to criticize anyone. You can however gain credibility if your critiques are not 100% in line with partisan politics regardless of the circumstances surrounding what you are critiquing. For all I know you agree with Obama on all topics but those you voice opposition to here. We’d never know because you dodge questions like the one AI presented.

If you seriously believe that someone is a monster who is destroying your way of life, why should you have to find the positives about them?

Fine: Obama appears to love his daughters and his wife.

Now, do we understand how utterly pointless that was? I'm sure you could find positive things to say about Stalin, the question is, why would you want to?

Some things are deal breakers, at which point we say "nothing you do can make up for the specific damage in other areas that you have caused."

I'd say XKeyscore makes Obama a bad President no matter what else he does.

[ August 08, 2013, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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DarkJello
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2 more positive statements and I will be satisfied, not that my opinion matters a ton.

Any other positives about The One, or his politics?

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D.W.
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Hey, I could care less if the answer was, "I oppose Obama on every substantive issue."

quote:
I'd say XKeyscore makes Obama a bad President no matter what else he does.
I happen to agree. And I voted for him twice.

The only thing that bothers me is knowing what I know now, I'm not certain I would have given his opponents my vote instead.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Hey, I could care less if the answer was, "I oppose Obama on every substantive issue."

quote:
I'd say XKeyscore makes Obama a bad President no matter what else he does.
I happen to agree. And I voted for him twice.

The only thing that bothers me is knowing what I know now, I'm not certain I would have given his opponents my vote instead.

If everyone believes that the two main statist parties are the only options, then it stays a self-fulfilling prophecy. It has to start somewhere...
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AI Wessex
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"If you seriously believe that someone is a monster who is destroying your way of life, why should you have to find the positives about them?"

I would have expected you to think that way given your posting history. In fairness, do you think Bush and/or the recent Republican opponents he faced were also monsters? For instance, XKeyscore has been in existence since at least 2007, which means it was planned and then designed much earlier than that. It's likely that it was initiated by Bush. Do you think either Romney or McCain would have canceled it?

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Hey, I could care less if the answer was, "I oppose Obama on every substantive issue."

quote:
I'd say XKeyscore makes Obama a bad President no matter what else he does.
I happen to agree. And I voted for him twice.

The only thing that bothers me is knowing what I know now, I'm not certain I would have given his opponents my vote instead.

If everyone believes that the two main statist parties are the only options, then it stays a self-fulfilling prophecy. It has to start somewhere...
This is the crux of the matter, and the status quo will not change without a significant... ummm... push.
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Seneca
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I could care less that Bush initiated it. I was out campaigning against Bush both times. I spotted him as the neo-liberal institutionalist that he was immediately in 2000, and I voted against him twice in 200 and 2004. Now he is no longer President so what does it matter? How can criticizing Bush lead to pressuring Obama to stop pissing on our Constitution?

I am even more angry though that the person who ran after Bush campaigned on a platform of rolling back the Patriot Act now embraces and expands these programs.

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
I am even more angry though that the person who ran after Bush campaigned on a platform of rolling back the Patriot Act now embraces and expands these programs.

And he has the audacity to declare that there is no domestic spying program.

Did the definition of "spying" change in the last week?

Would you share 2 more positives on Mr. Obama please? (Hopefully you say yes).

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Seneca
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quote:
Would you share 2 more positives on Mr. Obama please? (Hopefully you say yes).
Ha, that's funny. Reminds me of the Bush Loyalty Oath that people were required to recite at his events.
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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
quote:
Would you share 2 more positives on Mr. Obama please? (Hopefully you say yes).
Ha, that's funny. Reminds me of the Bush Loyalty Oath that people were required to recite at his events.
Illuminati?? [Cool]

Sharing is caring, so help a (white) brother out broham.

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AI Wessex
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Obama announced today that he is going to change the composition of the FISA court to make sure a civil libertarian "presence" is included. He also said that the decisions that have been taken that led to surveillance will be made available for more open scrutiny.

Do those actions mitigate anyone's concerns about future NSA activities?

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DarkJello
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quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Obama announced today that he is going to change the composition of the FISA court to make sure a civil libertarian "presence" is included. He also said that the decisions that have been taken that led to surveillance will be made available for more open scrutiny.

Do those actions mitigate anyone's concerns about future NSA activities?

Sounds goodish. Devil is always in the details. This is better than nothing.
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LetterRip
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DarkJello,

Agreed. President Obama makes it sound like this was the plan 'all along', but he has had almost five years to do this, so the fact that it didn't occur till immediately after Snowden released the documents makes me doubt the motives and especially his claim that this is not in response to Snowdens revelations.

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AI Wessex
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OK, if you doubt his motives does that mean that you doubt the objective?
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkJello:
quote:
Originally posted by AI Wessex:
Obama announced today that he is going to change the composition of the FISA court to make sure a civil libertarian "presence" is included. He also said that the decisions that have been taken that led to surveillance will be made available for more open scrutiny.

Do those actions mitigate anyone's concerns about future NSA activities?

Sounds goodish. Devil is always in the details. This is better than nothing.
This is actually worse than nothing. Obama just snowed everyone. All he talked about was phone records and emails, when we all know that wasn't even the main issue, the main issue is the cloning of all net traffic. Every single input, page view, form entry, keystroke logs, etc.

People will believe this problem is being addressed when this is just a smoke-screen.

Think about it, this administration was doing this and kept it secret even from members of Conress and when Clapper went to Congress mere weeks before Snowden revealed it, he lied to them and said that wasn't happening.

What makes you think they'll "protect our privacy" now all of a suddenif all the 'protectors' are doing their job in secret and can't tell us how they're doing?

You guys are clearly in the market for a few bridges if you believe that some bureaucrats who will do their job entirely in secret will do anything to address the constitutional issues here. My guess is those guys will be paper-employees or show up and play solitaire all day long. Who is to know?

[ August 10, 2013, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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AI Wessex
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OK, so tell us what they *should* do, are *likely* to do, and what the next Administration is likely to do differently...

...and assuming it's as bad as you are convinced it is, what you're going to do about it.

[ August 10, 2013, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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D.W.
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quote:
Do those actions mitigate anyone's concerns about future NSA activities?
Your quote said "going to" and "will be". So... no not at all.
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Seneca
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And does it bother anyone that Obama isn't proposing these reforms on his own because HE thinks there's a problem?

If Snowden hadn't come forward would anyone be discussing this at all?

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AI Wessex
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DW: "Your quote said "going to" and "will be". So... no not at all."

Assume the hypothetical?

Seneca: "And does it bother anyone that Obama isn't proposing these reforms on his own because HE thinks there's a problem?

If Snowden hadn't come forward would anyone be discussing this at all?"

When is *anything* ever done except when there is a public spectacle or popular outcry?

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D.W.
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Assume that the composition of the FISA court is changed? No. That does little to nothing to restore my trust in my government.

IMO they have already abused the power they have. They have made no apologies for what I consider abuse and have not indicated any plans to stop the behavior I consider abusive. All they have told is is in essence, "It's important. We need it. It's not as bad as it sounds. Don't worry about it. Ya, we lied. What you gonna do about it?"

How is adding someone who is suppose to look out for civil liberties going to help when those already on the court should be doing just that already? When no wrong is admitted to, how can you expect any change?

Does this announcement make you feel any better AI?

[ August 11, 2013, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: D.W. ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
If everyone believes that the two main statist parties are the only options, then it stays a self-fulfilling prophecy. It has to start somewhere...

That's the natural result of a single vote, simple plurality system. It's impossible for any but the two currently predominant choices to even have a chance to make a showing, because a vote for anyone else amounts to a vote for the less preferred candidate.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
If everyone believes that the two main statist parties are the only options, then it stays a self-fulfilling prophecy. It has to start somewhere...

That's the natural result of a single vote, simple plurality system. It's impossible for any but the two currently predominant choices to even have a chance to make a showing, because a vote for anyone else amounts to a vote for the less preferred candidate.
If that were true then how did any other parties ever get started and going in America over time?
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Pyrtolin
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They all arose in the wake of one of the major parties failing, either directly from the remnants of the failed party, or from a fracture in the remaining dominant party, with one side picking up the remnants. There has never been a case of a third party, on any significant scale, edging out one of the two major players; the basic nature of how we vote just doesn't allow for it.
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