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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » All I need is some racism. Oberlin looked around, but since racism was scarce... (Page 2)

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Author Topic: All I need is some racism. Oberlin looked around, but since racism was scarce...
PSRT
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quote:
By saying "zero evidence" are you saying that there are zero events that correlate more to the hypothesis of Treyvon Martin being a bloodthirsty thug than the hypothesis that he wasn't?

Or do you mean it in the sense of "evidence admissible in court"?

I mean that the evidence strongly supports the contention that Martin was a rather typical american male teenager, which sadly means that he sometimes glorifies the gang lifestyle, and got into some drugs that he shouldn't have, and may have gotten into some fisticuffs, but that there's nothing that moves beyond "Typical American teenage male," towards actual "Bloodthirsty thug."

I teach that age group, and at least half the boys that I teach, on a year to year basis, are Trayvon Martin, in terms of thuggery. And I've worked primarily in white suburban upper middle class districts. If he's a bloodthirsty thug worth killing, so is half the teenage population of this country.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But no, you don't want to appear bigoted, so excuse away the entire culture of gangsta thuggery, instead of treating it as shameful as KKKers and skinhead neonazis.
It seems to me that America, with its long history of electing neonazis and KKKers to office, has elected surprisingly few gangstas.
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Mariner
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
That was most likely exactly the point of cancelling classes for a day and giving the students and event that helped them feel that the baseline issue that they were worked up about was being respected. (It doesn't matter that the specific incident that set them off turned out to be a hoax any more than it matters whether it was a burglar or the wind blowing on a poorly latched door that sets your alarm off.

When it became clear that merely stopping the perpetrators wasn't enough to calm the students, he took a fairly reasonable next step to address the actual cause of the discontent rather than sticking his head in the sand and pretending that the hoax, not the issue that it highlighted, was at the root of the discontent.

Really? Really???

If you have an alarm go off, you don't care if it came from a burgler who ran away vs a gust of wind? You wouldn't, once the situation was known, respond to them differently?

Really???

You don't think anyone would want to know? You don't think it would be a relief to know a neo-Nazi isn't running around campus? If someone were sending you death threats, you wouldn't care if the person sending them wanted you to die vs just sending it as a prank?

Really???

You need to cancel classes for a day and screw up everyone's schedule just to make sure your student body knows that the issue of racism is taken seriously by the administration? Because people honestly think the administration doesn't take it seriously? Or there isn't a better way? That announcing they caught the schmucks who did it doesn't count as taking the issue seriously?

Really?

Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test.

What would have made more sense? "Hey everyone, there was a neo-Nazi running around on campus. But don't worry. Let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya. That'll show them!" Or... "Hey everyone, no neo-Nazis on campus. They were just a hoax. You can all calm down now."

You think the first is better in spirit? Better race relations? Make students feel better?

For that matter, the "issue" is, quite frankly, pretty lame too. Tell, me, do you rock back and forth hugging your knees at night worrying about neo-Nazis and the KKK? This is part of the reason this is so silly. I (as long as pretty much every conservative who read this story) immediately presumed it would end up being a hoax. There simply aren't any neo-Nazis running around on campus defacing campus with their flags. Particularly on a liberal arts campus. 5 seconds of rational thought would have made it clear that hoax was the simplest, most logical explanation. Instead, we get mass hysteria?

Again, I ask why? And why did the president go along with it? Indeed, still going along with it? Look at their press release:

quote:
These actions were real. The fear and disruption they caused in our community were real. While Oberlin College takes great pride in its historic and ongoing commitment to diversity, inclusion, and respectful discussion of ideas, we draw the line at threats and harassment of any kind.
Well no crap that threats and harassment are wrong. And no crap that the actions were "real" in that they did happen. But the intent behind them was not. And yet at no point do they acknowledge it. At no point do they acknowledgement that a difference is present.

Why?

What is it about the crazy narrative that we're somehow still living in the 1920s that people try to keep alive? And why does Oberlin, a supposedly liberal college, want to hide matters of race instead of tackle them head on? Why would a place of truth want to lie? Why would a place of advanced learning prefer to live in a simplistic world. I mean, how much moral fortitude does it take to get together and say neo-Nazis are bad? Why do students need an outlet to express racism is bad? That's a comfortable truth 99.9% of us already know. A more uncomfortable truth is what would cause someone to pretend to be a neo-Nazi. Wouldn't a place supposedly dedicated to a better understanding of truth want to tackle these more serious issues rather than say the extraordinarily mundane fact that Nazism is a bad, bad thing? Might as well hold a rally supporting the idea that water is wet, just in case people get the wrong opinion...

So why does a President of a University cover up the truth in favor of a simplistic narrative to get everyone in the university to rally around an idea everyone already agrees with?


In unrelated news, a black kid in a NJ private high school was just revealed to have hoaxed his school, claiming to have received racist text messages. At least the high school didn't bother to cover up the truth.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
You need to cancel classes for a day and screw up everyone's schedule just to make sure your student body knows that the issue of racism is taken seriously by the administration? Because people honestly think the administration doesn't take it seriously? Or there isn't a better way? That announcing they caught the schmucks who did it doesn't count as taking the issue seriously?
The evidence suggests that attempting to leave it at just that didn't work, as was pointed out, for the week after they caught the people perpetrating the hoax, the problem got worse; it didn't die down on its own just because it was exposed as a hoax.

quote:
Well no crap that threats and harassment are wrong. And no crap that the actions were "real" in that they did happen. But the intent behind them was not. And yet at no point do they acknowledge it. At no point do they acknowledgement that a difference is present.
Because when people are in a panic, the best way to calm them down is to invalidate their feelings and tell them that they're over-reacting.

That's simply not how most people work, especially not when you're trying to deal with them in aggregate.

Obviously, had there been a real threat, simply taking an action to acknowledge and allow the concerns to dissipate wouldn't have been the best choice, you're right that a different reaction would have been indicated at that point so long as the perpetrator remained on the loose and an active threat. But that wasn't the case; instead it seems that the administration did exactly what was needed to help diffuse a growing chain reaction of panic that had grown well beyond the hoax that started it.

[ August 27, 2013, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
You need to cancel classes for a day and screw up everyone's schedule just to make sure your student body knows that the issue of racism is taken seriously by the administration? Because people honestly think the administration doesn't take it seriously? Or there isn't a better way? That announcing they caught the schmucks who did it doesn't count as taking the issue seriously?
The evidence suggests that attempting to leave it at just that didn't work, as was pointed out, for the week after they caught the people perpetrating the hoax, the problem got worse; it didn't die down on its own just because it was exposed as a hoax.

quote:
Well no crap that threats and harassment are wrong. And no crap that the actions were "real" in that they did happen. But the intent behind them was not. And yet at no point do they acknowledge it. At no point do they acknowledgement that a difference is present.
BEcause when people are in a panic, the best way to calm them down is to invalidate their feelings and tell them that they're over-reacting.

That's simply not how most people work, especially not when you're trying to deal with them in aggregate.

Obviously, had there been a real threat, simply taking an action to acknowledge and allow the concerns to dissipate wouldn't have been the best choice, you're right that a different reaction would have been indicated at that point so long as the perpetrator remained on the loose and an active threat. But that wasn't the case; instead it seems that the administration did exactly what was needed to help diffuse a growing chain reaction of panic that had grown well beyond the hoax that started it.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
I mean that the evidence strongly supports the contention that Martin was a rather typical american male teenager, which sadly means that he sometimes glorifies the gang lifestyle, and got into some drugs that he shouldn't have, and may have gotten into some fisticuffs, but that there's nothing that moves beyond "Typical American teenage male," towards actual "Bloodthirsty thug."
Okay, then, tell me *what* evidence would have you convinced that he was a bloodthirsty thug?

quote:
I teach that age group, and at least half the boys that I teach, on a year to year basis, are Trayvon Martin, in terms of thuggery. And I've worked primarily in white suburban upper middle class districts. If he's a bloodthirsty thug worth killing, so is half the teenage population of this country.
Since you teach that age group, can you tell me what percentage of your students get three or more suspensions in a single school years? This is not a rhetorical question.

Also tell me what percentage of your students you estimate photograph themselves holding handguns.

---

Before you say such a thing as "zero evidence" I want you to realize what evidence means. If we have two competing hypotheses: a hypothesis T meaning "Treyvon Martin was a thug" and an opposing hypothesis NT meaning "Treyvon Martin was not a thug", then ANY SINGLE EVENT that correlates to one of the above hypothesis more than the other is EVIDENCE for the one or the other.

Do I expect thugs to have MORE school-suspensions than non-thugs? If yes, then such school suspensions are evidence than Martin was a thug. Perhaps *not* sufficient evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

Do I expect thugs to be more likely than non-thugs to say that another person hasn't bled enough, and that they're eager to make him bleed some more? If so, that's more evidence that Martin was a thug.

Do I expect thugs to be more likely than non-thugs to be constantly getting into fights? If so... etc etc

The odds of T to NT, after a piece of evidence E follow this formula:
O( T:NT | E) = O(T:NT) * P(E | T) / P (E | NT)

So for example if I hypothetically expect only 1 of 20 non-thugs to say that a person hasn't bled enough and they want to make him bleed some more, but that 1 out of 2 thugs say the same; and if the population of thugs to non-thugs is 1 thug for every 50 non-thugs, the odds would become:
O( T:NT | E) = (1/50)* ( 1/2 ) / (1/20) = 1/5

So such a piece of evidence alone (without anything else) would change the odds of a random person being a thug from (1 to 50) to (1/5), making a person ten times more likely than before to be a thug.

Any event that correlates differently between thug and non-thug populations is evidence for the one or the other.

You may still believe "non-sufficient evidence", but stop saying "zero evidence". By that you just reveal you don't know what evidence means.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
The evidence suggests that attempting to leave it at just that didn't work, as was pointed out, for the week after they caught the people perpetrating the hoax, the problem got worse; it didn't die down on its own just because it was exposed as a hoax
Wait a minute -- was it really *exposed* as hoax? Because so far I have gotten the sense that the University didn't seek to publicize the significant news of "The people involved have been caught and they were leftist hoaxers, rather than right-wing terrorists", it sought to cover it up instead.
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PSRT
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quote:
Since you teach that age group, can you tell me what percentage of your students get three or more suspensions in a single school years? This is not a rhetorical question.

Also tell me what percentage of your students you estimate photograph themselves holding handguns.

A significant number engage in the acts that got Trayvon Martin suspended (the last school few years I've been in a high school that didn't suspend kids), and at least a quarter if not a third fire weapons on a regular basis. I would be SHOCKED if more than a handful of the students who use guns never took a photo of themselves with one.

About three quarters of the boys in high school regularly get in fist fights. When a fight happens, crowds form and cheer on the fight.


And yet, these kids aren't "Bloodthirsty thugs," nor are they even thugs.

Was trayvon martin a troubled teen? Yup, definitely could have been, but NONE of the evidence more strongly correlates to "Thug," than "non-thug." Not even taken together. Trayvon Martin's behavior set is fairly common among teenage males who are not thugs.

And "bloodthirsty thug," which you've repeatedly called him demonstrates, being generous to you, a complete lack of understanding of what goes on with teenage males, especially from poorer backgrounds.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
the last school few years I've been in a high school that didn't suspend kids
Okay, how many students do you estimate get suspended three times in a school year, in the highschool that *Treyvon Martin* attended?

quote:
And yet, these kids aren't "Bloodthirsty thugs," nor are they even thugs.
So you say, but you've not given a single way to differentiate a thug from a non-thug. What are the criteria which would constitute evidence for someone being a bloodthirtsthy thug?

quote:
Yup, definitely could have been, but NONE of the evidence more strongly correlates to "Thug," than "non-thug."
I doubt it.

But okay, I'm listening. What exactly did the Christopher Lane murderers do (before the murder) that would have revealed them as bloodthirsty thugs which Treyvon Martin hadn't already done?

quote:
And "bloodthirsty thug," which you've repeatedly called him demonstrates, being generous to you, a complete lack of understanding of what goes on with teenage males, especially from poorer backgrounds.
Perhaps *if* you treated "teenage males" as human beings responsible for their actions (rather than a different species), then perhaps America wouldn't have such horrific crime rate in its teen male population.

If you say that half the teen population behave like Trayvon Martin, then FINE: half of your teen population are then bloodthirsty thugs.

Thankfully, I think the percentage of Treyvon Martins in America is actually much much smaller than that.

[ August 31, 2013, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Aris Katsaris ]

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