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Author Topic: Do you REALLY need a...... donut/corvette/hard liquor/cigarettes
Wayward Son
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quote:
In any case, I am still waiting to hear the case for high-fructose corn syrup. Do you really NEED it?
Not that I am aware of. And, IIRC, it is banned in soft drinks from vending machines in some state public schools. So it is being regulated, too.

So we are taking steps to reduce the use of these other dangerous substances.

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D.W.
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quote:
So we are taking steps to reduce the use of these other dangerous substances.
This is why we can't have nice things Seneca.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
In any case, I am still waiting to hear the case for high-fructose corn syrup. Do you really NEED it?
Not that I am aware of. And, IIRC, it is banned in soft drinks from vending machines in some state public schools. So it is being regulated, too.

So we are taking steps to reduce the use of these other dangerous substances.

Not nearly enough. From what I understand corn based sweeteners are still expanding marketshare.

If logic dictated which things we tried to "ban or limit" based on body counts, you'd see proportionately more pushes and activism surrounding these more deadly things than we see with the anti-firearms movement.

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scifibum
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How often, again, does someone kill a bunch of people at once and terrify hundreds of others at the same time with deep fried Twinkies?

Some proposed regulations might not make a lot of sense, but limiting magazine capacity or other limits on the mass-shooting-utility of available weapons have a pretty straightforward purpose related to a particular kind of atrocity.

In the meantime, I think you'll find that society is spending a great deal more money and energy on dieting than on gun control. Not to mention research into more fundamental preventative and palliative treatments for obesity and overeating and their associated negative health effects.

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Seneca
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quote:
In the meantime, I think you'll find that society is spending a great deal more money and energy on dieting than on gun control.
Really? Where are the restrictive laws, bans and criminal punishments for owning an "assault twinkie?" If your arteries could talk, I'm sure they'd call the deep-fried varieties "assault twinkies."

quote:
How often, again, does someone kill a bunch of people at once and terrify hundreds of others at the same time with deep fried Twinkies?
But the number of deaths from mass shootings vs obesity is infinitesimally small. So will you admit that this isn't about saving lives, it's about emotion?
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D.W.
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quote:
Some proposed regulations might not make a lot of sense, but limiting magazine capacity or other limits on the mass-shooting-utility of available weapons have a pretty straightforward purpose related to a particular kind of atrocity.
[humor]Can you quantify (or even guess) how many lives could potentially be saved by causing a shooter to reload 3 times with 10 round magazines compared to a single 30 round magazine? You may allow for a reasonable amount of fumbling for a magazine. I will accept a probable failure rate given a reasonable hypothetical time differential between the two shooters.[/humor]
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D.W.
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Seneca, I agree many firearm regulations are overly emotional and not useful in preserving lives but you would be better off equating assault twinkie abuse with suicide by firearms.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Seneca, I agree many firearm regulations are overly emotional and not useful in preserving lives but you would be better off equating assault twinkie abuse with suicide by firearms.

No, think about it. We are suffering a doctor shortage and in many areas a shortage of hospital beds. Twinkies kill more than the people stuffing them into their own mouths, they kill others by clogging up the medical system too.
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D.W.
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Well if we're going to hold GSW victims to a 5% mortality rate I suppose we'll have to clear the ER of those Twinkie abusers. Fair point. I'm onboard with your proposed bloating of the government into our personal eating habits to curtail the bloating of our persons.
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LetterRip
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DW and Seneca,

I personally object to 'do something' politics, where naive solutions that are likely to have little or no impact on the stated goal are proposed/implemented.

In this particular instance - do 'clip size limits' save lives?

There are incidents that suggest that reloading gives innocents the opportunity to either escape, or to counter attack.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/17/high-capacity-magazines-senate-editorials-debates/2091177/

DW, the above article appears to suggest that having to swap clips results in significant increase in survival of innocents.

That doesn't mean that it will always have that impact. A skilled shooter who has practiced so that he doesn't fumble during a reload (ie someone with military background or police background) the changing clips will likely not be of much benefit. For the case of most rampage shooters it appears that it would be a benefit.

As to the claim that 'criminals' don't follow the laws - rampage shooters aren't the same type of criminals.

[ February 03, 2014, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Do you need to be informed of the short and long term effects of alcohol on the nervous system or are you just using an unreasonably restrictive usage of harm amounting to serious bodily injury or death?

Alcohol in moderation has a (mild) health benefit. Even non-acute intoxication, on occasion, harms neither the body nor mind. I'm not using a restrictive sense of the word harm, I'm describing non-pathological consumption of alcohol.

Obviously problem drinking is a major health problem, but that doesn't make the substance inherently harmful by the drop. Its a sacrament in many religions, probably to a stronger degree in mine than any other I know of. Vajrayana Buddhists drink because of what it does to consciousness, and, properly applied, its a source of great benefit. Here is a good layman's discussion of how it works, if you are interested. In any case, I think its important to distinguish between inherent harms and inherent risks. Alcohol has the latter but not the former.

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Pete at Home
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It's not about emotion, Seneca, but about control, cultural war. and political hegemony. Both left and right employ some ghastly falsehoods in order to snooker the American public into surrendering more civil rights in the name of security.

To your credit, I believe you've made the same observation.

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Seneca
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Very tired of people using the term "clip..."

Even if you blame ALL of the deaths from mass shootings on extended magazines, which seems absurd, it is still a drop in the bucket compared to obesity related deaths. So the disproportionate push and energy we seen among gun control advocates who claim it's about saving lives is emotional and anti-logic.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
Some proposed regulations might not make a lot of sense, but limiting magazine capacity or other limits on the mass-shooting-utility of available weapons have a pretty straightforward purpose related to a particular kind of atrocity.
[humor]Can you quantify (or even guess) how many lives could potentially be saved by causing a shooter to reload 3 times with 10 round magazines compared to a single 30 round magazine? You may allow for a reasonable amount of fumbling for a magazine. I will accept a probable failure rate given a reasonable hypothetical time differential between the two shooters.[/humor]
Not sure why it's funny, could you elaborate?

I'm also not sure how effective such a measure would be. But the INTENT of the measure is CLEARLY tied to a particular type of atrocity.

There are no comparable atrocities associated with deep fried Twinkies. However clownish Seneca insists on being with his argument, the health effects of chronic behaviors are not directly comparable.

To the extent we can make direct comparisons - let's say drunk driving - we are already all over it.

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Pete at Home
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Adam, there are no scientific studies that show that individuals benefit from any alcohol consumption.

The studies you cite do nothing but identify moderate alcohol consumers, is persons less prone to addiction. Obviously suchpersons are healthier than average. That's selection, not effect of alcohol.

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Do you need to be informed of the short and long term effects of alcohol on the nervous system or are you just using an unreasonably restrictive usage of harm amounting to serious bodily injury or death?

Alcohol in moderation has a (mild) health benefit. Even non-acute intoxication, on occasion, harms neither the body nor mind. I'm not using a restrictive sense of the word harm, I'm describing non-pathological consumption of alcohol.

Obviously problem drinking is a major health problem, but that doesn't make the substance inherently harmful by the drop. Its a sacrament in many religions, probably to a stronger degree in mine than any other I know of. Vajrayana Buddhists drink because of what it does to consciousness, and, properly applied, its a source of great benefit. Here is a good layman's discussion of how it works, if you are interested. In any case, I think its important to distinguish between inherent harms and inherent risks. Alcohol has the latter but not the former.

I am curious, what health benefits can alcohol impart that cannot be achieved through some other non-alcoholic means? The anti-oxidants argument for red wine doesn't seem to hold water to me since those can be gotten in many other foods and drinks.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
quote:
Some proposed regulations might not make a lot of sense, but limiting magazine capacity or other limits on the mass-shooting-utility of available weapons have a pretty straightforward purpose related to a particular kind of atrocity.
[humor]Can you quantify (or even guess) how many lives could potentially be saved by causing a shooter to reload 3 times with 10 round magazines compared to a single 30 round magazine? You may allow for a reasonable amount of fumbling for a magazine. I will accept a probable failure rate given a reasonable hypothetical time differential between the two shooters.[/humor]
Not sure why it's funny, could you elaborate?

I'm also not sure how effective such a measure would be. But the INTENT of the measure is CLEARLY tied to a particular type of atrocity.

There are no comparable atrocities associated with deep fried Twinkies. However clownish Seneca insists on being with his argument, the health effects of chronic behaviors are not directly comparable.

To the extent we can make direct comparisons - let's say drunk driving - we are already all over it.

No, we are NOT "all over" DUI. In my state, the statutes are incredibly lax, and this probably has something to do with the amount of legislators, mayors, law enforcement, prosecutors, etc., who get caught personally drunk driving. Here it takes sometimes 3-5 arrests and convictions before serious jail time. Recently there was a high-profile case of a serial DUI felon wiping out half of a family of 4 and maiming the other two. Despite his previous convictions, he only got 18 years for the double murder.

In my state, you have to get several DUI convictions before they are even considered felonies, and after that you need to get one or two more before major prison time.

[ February 03, 2014, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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scifibum
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Forgive me, I shouldn't have said "all over it". What I should have said was "addressing the problem with legal restrictions and penalties."

Not that I think owning a large magazine is the equivalent to driving drunk. But we impose restrictions and penalties on drunk driving because of the (lowish) chance that any one instance could lead to great harm. (It's an uncomfortable fact that the vast majority of drunk driving incidents pass without harm to anyone.)

Restrictions on weapons meant to limit the occasional harm of a mass shooting are at least somewhat comparable in intent.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If logic dictated which things we tried to "ban or limit" based on body counts...
Obviously, logic does not dictate this.

quote:
So will you admit that this isn't about saving lives, it's about emotion?
It depends. Do you agree that sealing the borders and fighting terror are also about emotion? Because Twinkies kill way more people than illegal immigrants do, after all.
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D.W.
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[humor] As in I am humoring someone. Not as in, “the following is intended to be humorous” The use of brackets itself was the entirety of my attempt at humor.

quote:
I'm also not sure how effective such a measure would be. But the INTENT of the measure is CLEARLY tied to a particular type of atrocity.
I agree the intent is obvious and I even agree with it. I am actually against 30 round magazines in general. I just find the use of a law, which almost certainly will not confiscate existing magazines of an arbitrarily set capacity, to be ineffective at achieving that intent.

What will it accomplish? Headlines about how this “grandfathered” weapon which is now illegal is an abomination of a loophole that simply must be closed to save lives. This will of course fail for a long time. Probably about the time political will may be there to push something forward a new technology will come around offering an improved design which then makes current laws which target specifics of technology irrelevant.

A power supply on the personal magnetic accelerated projectile launcher capable of more than 10 charges is prohibited. Your ray gun beam duration must decay after penetrating through no more than 6” of organic matter or 2” of inorganic material to be certified as a lawful personal defense weapon.

Laws should address intent to do harm. Attempts to limit means to do harm should be effective and rational to warrant their narrow effectiveness. A law against method will not prevent someone who is already willing to break a law regarding their intent. Only a total and proactive confiscation can make a law against a means to do harm effective.

The point is the amount of lives saved would be a good thing by enacting such a ban. I don’t believe the amount of lives it costs by someone unable to defend themselves against an angry mob will ever approach it. That said there are probably far more ways to save far more lives and be financially and politically more achievable in the near future. The magazine ban is a near useless gesture whose only purpose is to get one more step closer to a weapon seizure. That or it is an irrational attempt to minimize needless loss of lives. Or it is an emotional response to the feeling of helplessness that results from someone murdering others. (Something we already punish.)

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Adam, there are no scientific studies that show that individuals benefit from any alcohol consumption.

The studies you cite do nothing but identify moderate alcohol consumers, is persons less prone to addiction. Obviously suchpersons are healthier than average. That's selection, not effect of alcohol.

Except that moderate drinkers have better outcomes than non-drinkers, as confirmed by literally hundreds of studies. You're wrong on this one: link

Seneca, this is from the link:

"Why drink to reduce the risk of heart disease? Wouldn't eating a good diet, exercising, and losing weight do the same thing?
No, it wouldn't. The moderate consumption of alcohol appears to be more effective than most other lifestyle changes that are used to lower the risk of heart and other diseases. For example, the average person would need to follow a very strict low-fat diet, exercise vigorously on a regular basis, eliminate salt from the diet, lose a substantial amount of weight, and probably begin medication in order to lower cholesterol by 30 points or blood pressure by 20 points.
But medical research suggests that alcohol can have a greater impact on heart disease than even these hard-won reductions in cholesterol levels or blood pressure. Only cessation of smoking is more effective. Additionally, other medical research suggests that adding alcohol to a healthful diet is more effective than just following the diet alone.9"

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Seneca
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I found this very interesting:

quote:
How Alcohol Promotes Good Heart Health
The moderate consumption of alcohol promotes good heart health in a number of ways, including the following:

Alcohol improves blood lipid profile73
It increases HDL ("good") cholesterol74
It decreases LDL ("bad") cholesterol75
It improves cholesterol (both HDL and LDL) particle size76
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
To learn about this preventable health problem visit Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.
Alcohol decreases thrombosis (blood clotting)
It reduces platelet aggregation77
It reduces fibrinogen (a blood clotter)78
It increases fibrinolysis (the process by which clots dissolve)79
Alcohol acts in additional ways80
It reduces coronary artery spasm in response to stress
It increases coronary blood flow81
It reduces blood pressure82
It reduces blood insulin level83
It increases estrogen levels84

Thanks for the link, I did not know that.
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Seneca:
Thanks for the link, I did not know that.

NP. In my tradition, we say "Alcohol is medicine; alcohol is poison." Its interesting how medically true that aphorism is, considering that its hundreds of years old, and referring more to spiritual well-being than strictly physical health.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Masterman:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Adam, there are no scientific studies that show that individuals benefit from any alcohol consumption.

The studies you cite do nothing but identify moderate alcohol consumers, is persons less prone to addiction. Obviously suchpersons are healthier than average. That's selection, not effect of alcohol.

Except that moderate drinkers have better outcomes than non-drinkers, as confirmed by literally hundreds of studies. You're wrong on this one: link


If you read and think about what I said, it will become clear that the advantage of moderate vs nondrinkers does NOT overcome the selection bias that I mentioned. Nondrinkers will include persons who are genetically or emotionally predisposed to all sorts of addictions. Moderate drinkers grouping excludes persons predisposed to addiction.

The group of Persons who are able to drink moderately will by necessity involve fewer drug addicts, eating disorders, and persons with other addictive unhealthy habits.

If I am wrong, then show me a double blind study or some other control that we would expect if we were dealing with any drug other than a legally and socially approved sacred cow.

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D.W.
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I try to restrain my familial predisposition towards addictive personality manifestations to hitting F5 then replying here and video games. So far so good!
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OpsanusTau
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Pete, from Adam's link, just from a quick glance through:

quote:
During a ten year study of 7,697 non-drinkers, investigators found that 6% began consuming alcohol in moderation. After four years of follow-up, new moderate drinkers had a 38% lower chance of developing cardiovascular disease than did those who continued abstaining. Even after adjusting for physical activity, Body Mass Index (BMI), demographic and cardiac risk factors, this difference persisted. (68)
quote:
An analysis of pairs of twins with different drinking patterns found that those who consumed alcohol in moderation had half the risk of developing type 2 (adult-onset) diabetes compared to those who consumed less alcohol. The study involved nearly 23,000 Finnish twins. (100)
quote:
A study was conducted using identical female twins, in which one twin drank very little and the other twin drank moderately (one or two drinks each day). Twins were used because they are genetic clones. Because they have the same genes and grew up in the same environment, it's easier to control for any other possible confounding factors. The study found that moderate drinkers had significantly denser bones than the control group of twins consisting of very light drinkers. (146)
I haven't read any of the articles, but even the ones that aren't twin studies or self-controlled probably do have some thought given to the confounders you mention.

I'm not saying those confounding factors don't exist - clearly they do, in that we would expect people who are not able to maintain moderate drinking to be different from people who are.

~~~~

Only somewhat related, high-fructose corn syrup itself is not a problem. Eating tons of sugar in a fiber-free environment is a problem, regardless of whether it is HFCS or agave nectar or whatever the trendy thing is right now.

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edgmatt
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Must...not....derail...with.....debate about...high-fructose corn syrup.....arrrrghhhh....... [FootInMouth] [FootInMouth] [FootInMouth]
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Adam Masterman
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What Ops said; selection bias is pretty basic science. Plenty of controls for it, and numerous studies just in my link that use them. Moderate drinking still demonstrates health benefits.

Also, not sure where you are getting that alcohol is a sacred cow. We're a country that enacted a national prohibition not too recently, and still have plenty of local prohibitions in place. I can't think of a culture that frowns on alcohol more than our own, outside of Muslim countries.

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Pete at Home
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Ops, if that's true, then yes the twin study would show what Adam says.

I have a very had time believing in the existence of 23,000 Finnish twins in which one is a teetotaller or very low drinker, and the other drinks moderately. I wasn't aware that Finland had that many nonalcoholics in the entire population, let alone nonalcoholic twins.

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Pete at Home
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Just to clarify, we're talking human Finns, right? Not Finnish reindeer?
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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Ops, if that's true, then yes the twin study would show what Adam says.

I have a very had time believing in the existence of 23,000 Finnish twins in which one is a teetotaller or very low drinker, and the other drinks moderately. I wasn't aware that Finland had that many nonalcoholics in the entire population, let alone nonalcoholic twins.

The Finnish twin study wasn't exclusive to alcohol effects; it was a large scale longitudinal study, using twins to study lifestyle effects on health with a genetic constant. The alcohol consumption differences were undoubtedly a smaller sub-set of the total group.

In general, you're being obtuse. The point is made and your objections answered. Where, exactly, are you trying to go with this?

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Pete at Home
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he point is made, my objections answered, and I admitted it right out. What is your problem, Adam? Did my jest about notorious :Fininish alcoholism disrupt your victory dance? I concede! Go celebrate. No need to get on my leg about it. Thanks for answering my question.

". Where, exactly, are you trying to go with this"

1 admited that the facts refute my position. Check.
2 make joke about Finnish twins and reindeer. Check.

Guess I'm done unless you want to drag it out.

Is there some official Ornery capitulation ritual we are supposed to go through? I hate to leave you unsatisfied...

[ February 04, 2014, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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D.W.
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Celebrate in moderation. Unless Pete decides to show more leg. Then go wild.
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OpsanusTau
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Pete I had the same exact thought about the Finns, which is kind of awful but grounded mostly in jokes Finns make about themselves.

A good rundown on HFCS. Science-based medicine has a few articles about this.

I think I expressed myself badly before, and I'm sorry - I've got a cold, it fuzzes up my head. What I was trying to say is that HFCS is not uniquely bad as a sweetener, but it IS ubiquitous and cheap. Replacing it in the diet with honey or agave nectar or maple syrup or apple juice in an equal-calorie replacement will probably not improve much of anyone's situation. Changing the diet to include less sugar consumption overall WILL improve almost everyone's situation.

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Wayward Son
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I'd be careful about those Finnish jokes, Pete, especially if you're on a Nokia phone... [Wink]
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by OpsanusTau:
Pete I had the same exact thought about the Finns, which is kind of awful but grounded mostly in jokes Finns make about themselves.


Yes, that's where I picked up the stereotype. From a teetotaling Finn who described himself as the only non-alky in his family. Europeans are more tolerant of humorous ethnic stereotypes than drive insular Americans bat**** [Smile] . Stereotypes aren't the basis of a serious counterargument but I thought I'd made a decent joke there.

[ February 04, 2014, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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scifibum
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quote:
Europeans are more tolerant of humorous ethnic stereotypes than drive insular Americans bat****
Now let's make a stereotype about stereotypes about stereotypes.
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Pete at Home
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Where is SP when we need him? He could do a good riff on Adam's Finn Twin win.

[ February 04, 2014, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Europeans are more tolerant of humorous ethnic stereotypes than drive insular Americans bat****
Now let's make a stereotype about stereotypes about stereotypes.
Yes, that was my challenge. I thought DW would take it up.
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D.W.
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There is a dropped ball joke but I'm not sure if participating in this thread validates it or not.
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