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Brian
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Can someone be baptized more than once in LDS? I know some evangelical churches will baptize an adult who was baptized as an infant, but I'm not sure if they will for someone who is changing from say Catholic to Baptist if they were already baptized as an adult.

Do Mormons?


Also, don't Jews believe that things done in a person's name still affect their... 'karma'... even after they die?

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MattP
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quote:
Can someone be baptized more than once in LDS?
Mormons don't recognize any other baptisms as valid so you must be re-baptized if you convert from another faith. The only times someone will be baptized twice as a member of the LDS church is if they have been excommunicated and then re-joined the church or if it is determined that the first baptism was not valid. LDS ordinances have very rigorous protocols and the ordinance is considered void if those protocols are not followed exactly.

quote:
Also, don't Jews believe that things done in a person's name still affect their... 'karma'... even after they die?
That specific objection has been brought up here by someone with Jewish family members, but I don't know the basis for it.
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Pete at Home
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I was baptized at 8, and if I rejoin the LDS church I would be baptized again. Being Baptized into another Christian sect would not in itself require re-baptism so long as one did not terminate one's membership in the LDS church.

As for what Jews believe ... good luck with that. [Smile] As best I can tell Judaism means the current opinion of the loudest Jew in the room. A Jew who bases her Judaism on the Torah would say no, while a Jew based on Kaballah might say differently.

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DJQuag
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As an atheist, I'll say this.

I don't think an LDS proxy using my name in a baptismal ceremony after I am dead would harm me in any way, but I do find the idea of it to be offensive.

I'm an adult, capable of making my own decisions. I've decided that theistic belief, including LDS belief, is not something that I believe in. If I were to be included in their ceremonies, the LDS people doing so would be assuming that they knew better then me, and what I wanted done for me, in a manner that I find to be paternalistic and, yes, insulting.

Would I care at the time? Of course not; I'll be dead and nonexistant. Do I find the idea of it distasteful now, while I am still alive? Yep, sure do.

Jewish mythology is no more or less valid then LDS mythology. To continue to use Jewish names in their ceremonies (although I think perhaps the church agreed to stop doing that?) is grossly insulting in much the same manner.

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Pete at Home
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". Jewish mythology is no more or less valid then LDS mythology. "

No one said otherwise. What in said was that Jews don't have a unified mythology with regard to life after death. See
judaism 101 on the afterlife
Different Jews have different opinions about the afterlife and only a tiny minority believe in Kaballah. When one Ornerian got on here and represented Kaballah teachings re the spirit as mainstream Judaism, that argument was false and invalid, since Kaballah no more represents mainstream Judaism than Penn and Teller represent all atheists. I am not impressed with folks who make false representations in order to pretend that something is offensive. Kate, for instance, cannot make her complaints about the LDS doctrine without making false and grossly distorted statements about it. I can only conclude that what actually is being believed and done must not be that offensive otherwise no falsehood would be necessary to make it so.

However, if one gets all upset about something others do in private that doesn't affect you or affect nonconsenting parties, then maybe one is being a stupid control freak.


" If I were to be included in their ceremonies, the LDS people doing so would be assuming that they knew better then me"

That interpretation suggests that you don't grasp what they are doing.

But you don't need to. Why don't you practice what you believe and let them practice what they believe so long as it doesn't infringe on your choices?

What the Mormons are doing is the equivalent of bringing an extra life jacket in case you change your mind later about not wearing one.

[ March 23, 2014, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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DJQuag
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Yeah, see, I have no need or interest in the Mormons' silly little life vest. The idea that they know better then me in that matter is exactly the thing that is disrespectful.

Luckily, though, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do such things; it was stated that atheists were being somehow hypocritical in disliking the practice, and I explained how it was possible to not believe and still not like it. As it is, people are perfectly free in our society to disrespect other's beliefs, and I don't see a reason to change that.

One should probably stop using words like "stupid control freak" when people are just stating their dislike for potentially having their wishes disregarded in such a condescending, paternalistic manner, lest one come across as a hyper defensive, passive aggressive tool.

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Pete at Home
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" potentially having their wishes disregarded in such a condescending, paternalistic manner"

This again makes false assumptions or insinuations about the practice.

Carrying a life vest for you on a boat doesn't disregard your wishes; it considers the possibility that your wishes may change. If it pisses you off that someone might take private unobtrusive precautions lest you change your mind, then "control issues" is the only explanation that comes to my mind.

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Pete at Home
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I never said that you don't have a right to dislike or complain loudly about Mormon beliefs or practices. I simply said that such complaints suggest inconsistency and insecurity in one's own beliefs. To a confused and insecure person it must be upsetting to see a bunch of people acting consistent with their belief system.
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Pete at Home
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As for your hypocrotical accusation that am a "tool" in this argument -- "took" of whom? You even recognized that LDS leaders made an agreement. So I am not doing any favors to my former church by arguing this matter. Or by pointing out that the leaders did not have the authority to make that agreement with a mob of ignorant controlling bullies, without submitting the matter to the common consent process in section 50. There's no passiveness about my aggression towards hypocritical bullies.

[ March 24, 2014, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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DJQuag
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I'm neither confused nor inconsistent. I just know disrespect when I see it.
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DJQuag
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To the Jewish people who honestly believe that their souls and relationship with their god are being damaged, the LDS are the ignorant bullies.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
To the Jewish people who honestly believe that their souls and relationship with their god are being damaged, the LDS are the ignorant bullies.

how many actual Jews actually believe that?

For the most part that's a straw man touted by hypocritical atheists. Yes there may be a Jew or two who base their Judaism on Kaballah and buy into that story, but pretending that's the position of mainstream.Judaism is a modern Atheist tool job tied to American electoral politics.

Madonna and the rest of the golem-****ing Kabballah pseudospiritualists do jot represent mainstream Judaism.

[ March 24, 2014, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
I'm neither confused nor inconsistent. I just know disrespect when I see it.

But you don't see anything here. You are just parroting what you have been told.
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Pete at Home
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Only a superstitious gimp.or a control freak would demands that others "Respect My wishes" with regard to another person's private and harmless religious ceremonies. Do you demand that others respect your wishes with regard to all their private lives? Do I need to respect your wishes with regard to what underwear I wear, what books I read,, who I ****, which side of the bed I sleep on? Get a life.

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ March 27, 2014, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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DJQuag
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So it was the atheists who protested and got the LDS to agree not to baptise dead Jewish people? Interesting.
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DJQuag
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"Get a life."

No u.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I'm not parroting anything, Pete. These thoughts are all my own, I promise you. What underwear you wear or who/what gender you have sex with is not related to me in any way.

The idea that a Mormon is going to use my name in one of his mystical ceremonies, even worse for the stated purpose of my own good, is disrespectful. A person can decide for himself which faith he wants to partake in. When he says no, and they think they know better and baptise him anyway, that is ignoring his wishes in a paternalistic and condescending way. Again, an atheist doesn't have to believe in these silly little rituals to find the idea of that happening, even after death, to be distasteful.

I could call your mother a whore, and while it is probably not true and would have no power to make her a whore, it would still be disrespectful.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:


The idea that a Mormon is going to use my name in one of his mystical ceremonies, even worse for the stated purpose of my own good, is disrespectful.

It's disrespectful to pray for someone who doesn't want to be prayed for? How?
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Pete at Home
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I am on cell so I can't show how the matter evolved from some Jesse Jacksonesque shakedown artist whose name rhymes with "weasel" , through atheist press tools, to major federal government tools that made the church leaders feel threatened.

But i can point out that on this forum, the antimormon argument non this topic has been driven by atheists, who at one point imported a token Jew from another forum to be their temporary spokesJew. Rather than asking the opinion of local religious Jews such as Seagull.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Grant:
quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:


The idea that a Mormon is going to use my name in one of his mystical ceremonies, even worse for the stated purpose of my own good, is disrespectful.

It's disrespectful to pray for someone who doesn't want to be prayed for? How?
Good luck getting an answer to that question, with regard to private prayer. Because to a non hypocritical atheist such as yourself, that's effectively like asking why it's disrespectful.to think about someone that doesn't want to be thought about. [Smile] ultimately this is an issue of thought control.
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DJQuag
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So some guy whose name rhymes with weasel forced a not insubstantial portion of the Jewish lobby to pressure the LDS to leave them out of their rituals.

Okay, then.

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DJQuag
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And so far as I can remember, Seagull is a pretty irreligious Jew.
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stilesbn
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DJ. I'm curious, from what I can tell it sounds like you believe that if after you die a Mormon baptizes you by proxy you are then forced to be a Mormon.

Pete keeps gesturing to the fact that you and Kate don't understand what the ordinance is and then throws insults without going into what exactly is not being understood (Which I believe he talked about previously in the post but based on yours and Kate's answers it didn't stick).

I'd rather get to the heart of the matter.

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DJQuag
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quote:
Originally posted by Grant:
quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:


The idea that a Mormon is going to use my name in one of his mystical ceremonies, even worse for the stated purpose of my own good, is disrespectful.

It's disrespectful to pray for someone who doesn't want to be prayed for? How?
"Would you like to join our religion?"

"No, your religion is ridiculous."

"Okay, then. Well, we know better then you what you'll need and want, so we'll talk to our god about it anyway."

It's the "we know better, you silly atheist/Jew/Muslim/whatever attitude that I find to be extremely distasteful.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
"Get a life."

No u.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I'm not parroting anything, Pete. These thoughts are all my own, I promise you. ...

[ but your thoughts are based on false statements and fictiosn that you have been fed, falsehoods which surface when you say be like "baptize HIM" which isn't what happens].

Again, an atheist doesn't have to believe in these silly little rituals to find the idea of that happening, even after death, to be distasteful.

[*what* happening? If you can answer that question accurately, you prove yourself a nonbrainwashee in this debate. Otherwise you are washed, basing your opinions on false info.]


I could call your mother a whore, and while it is probably not true and would have no power to make her a whore, it would still be disrespectful.

Otoh, if someone meets a woman he THINKS is your mom, and pays for sex, and dorsnt talk about it, are you right to that as a personal attack of disrespect against you?
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DJQuag
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I have a pretty good idea of what the ritual is, thanks. I still disagree with the attitude behind it.

Nobody put a gun to anyone's head to force the LDS to stop doing it with Jewish names. And I'm not saying they should ever be forced to stop , anymore then I would want to force any other arrogant person to stop being arrogant.


I am saying that the paternalistoic attitude behind it all rubs me the wrong way, and that is due to neither ignorance nor being a hypocrite.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:

It's the "we know better, you silly atheist/Jew/Muslim/whatever attitude that I find to be extremely distasteful.

I don't think that's the actual attitude that is governing the desire of an individual who may pray for you. I think you were closer when you described it as Paternalistic. Paternalism requires some kind of warm feelings for the target of the paternalistic behavior.

As to an individual thinking that they may know better then another, doesn't everybody? Isn't every argument in the history of the universe based on the fact that people disagree? Is it disrespectful to simply disagree?

Right now there is probably a Muslim, or a Baptist, or a Pentecostal, that is praying for my soul, or for me to burn in hell for eternity. Personally, I'm not necessarily offended by their prayers.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
So some guy whose name rhymes with weasel forced a not insubstantial portion of the Jewish lobby to pressure the LDS to leave them out of their rituals.

Okay, then.

Is that what you are pretending that I said now?

Since when is Hillary Clinton part of the "Jewish Lobby"?

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ March 27, 2014, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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stilesbn
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Based on your comments DJ I still don't think you have an accurate idea of what the attitude/effect behind proxy baptisms is.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
I have a pretty good idea of what the ritual is, thanks. I still disagree with the attitude behind it.

Since you have yet to correctly represent the rituals, and continue to make false statements about it, how can you be trusted to even grasp what the attitude is? What if a Mormon is just doing ceremonies because he thinks God told him to? What if a ship captain brings a lifejacket for you just because the law tells him to? Is than being "disrespectful" or are you just having a meaningless hissyfit over nothing?
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DJQuag
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It's a ceremony done in someone's name, by proxy, so that they can change their mind in the afterlife. Because for some ridiculous reason, changing your mind in the afterlife isn't good enough.

I. Get. It.

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DJQuag
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
So some guy whose name rhymes with weasel forced a not insubstantial portion of the Jewish lobby to pressure the LDS to leave them out of their rituals.

Okay, then.

Is that what you are pretending that I said now?

Since when is Hillary Clinton part of the "Jewish Lobby"?

Those are some weird misspellings of Hillary Clinton.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Jewish_Holocaust_victims

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DJQuag
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I wouldn't call finding it distasteful that someone else thinks they know better then I do what I want a hissyfit, myself. Frothing at the mouth about people not wanting a ceremony done in their name? Much closer to my definition.
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Pete at Home
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How the f to you equate a modern lobby with holocausr victims? Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Pete: Please see your email. -OrneryMod

[ March 27, 2014, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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Pete at Home
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Sorry, when you said the word "Lobby" I assumed you knew what the word meant, Jefe.
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DJQuag
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
"Get a life."

No u.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I'm not parroting anything, Pete. These thoughts are all my own, I promise you. ...

[ but your thoughts are based on false statements and fictiosn that you have been fed, falsehoods which surface when you say be like "baptize HIM" which isn't what happens].

Again, an atheist doesn't have to believe in these silly little rituals to find the idea of that happening, even after death, to be distasteful.

[*what* happening? If you can answer that question accurately, you prove yourself a nonbrainwashee in this debate. Otherwise you are washed, basing your opinions on false info.]


I could call your mother a whore, and while it is probably not true and would have no power to make her a whore, it would still be disrespectful.

Otoh, if someone meets a woman he THINKS is your mom, and pays for sex, and dorsnt talk about it, are you right to that as a personal attack of disrespect against you?
Nope. If he saw someone that looked like me, and thought "That guy looks like Quag, and I just know Quag is going to want to be a whore one day despite what he's told me, so I'll go ahead and submit his name to the Whore's Guild of America for him before the cut off date," I might, yeah.

Again, no real harm done, just the attitude behind it is distasteful.

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DJQuag
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Sorry, when you said the word "Lobby" I assumed you knew what the word meant, Jefe.

Try reading the article.

Also, if it's the same to you, David, Quag, or DJQuag. No pet names, please. Or whatever else Jefe is supposed to mean before we have to have a courtroom discussion over the meaning of pet name.

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stilesbn
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
It's a ceremony done in someone's name, by proxy, so that they can change their mind in the afterlife. Because for some ridiculous reason, changing your mind in the afterlife isn't good enough.

I. Get. It.

Well to start, the belief is that baptism by the proper authority in the flesh is absolutely necessary to get into heaven. Mormon's believe that their church is the only church that holds that authority (which is a point that I can see people thinking as distasteful).

Starting with that base the idea that you can get to the after life and just change your mind and poof everything is good and happy doesn't work. You are stuck because you didn't get baptized when you had a body. That means that you or the poor little guy in Africa who never even heard about Jesus is doomed forever. Unless of course someone comes along and does a proxy baptism for him/her.

So going back to the boat analogy. Before getting on the boat you tell the captain whether or not you would like a life vest in the case of an emergency (The captain has enough for everyone already on the boat.) You say nah I'm good. Then the boat starts to sink. Would you like to be able to ask the captain for a life vest? Or would you rather he absolutely refuse your access to one because you already made your choice. You're an adult, you knew the risks, and the captain is not the paternalistic type so it's time to die. It might happen that you're a great swimmer and you can make it to the island 2 miles away so you don't need the life vest, but wouldn't you like the option?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Sorry, when you said the word "Lobby" I assumed you knew what the word meant, Jefe.

Try reading the article.

Also, if it's the same to you, David, Quag, or DJQuag. No pet names, please. Or whatever else Jefe is supposed to mean before we have to have a courtroom discussion over the meaning of pet name.

Jefe literally means "boss" in Spanish and wasn't a pet name for you. I was making a movie reference from the three Amigos. ("Plethora"). Your response could start "El Guapo" ... never mind. I see you are ill versed in the classics [Wink]
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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by DJQuag:
Nope. If he saw someone that looked like me, and thought "That guy looks like Quag, and I just know Quag is going to want to be a whore one day despite what he's told me, so I'll go ahead and submit his name to the Whore's Guild of America for him before the cut off date," I might, yeah.

Again, no real harm done, just the attitude behind it is distasteful.

[LOL] I am going to look for the Whore's Guild of America RIGHT NOW! Your name is going IN Quag!
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DJQuag
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Food for thought, Stilesbn, and presented in a delightfully non frothy manner. Thank you.

I'll respond, I promise. I'm on a train to Liverpool ATM, however, and this discussion is raping my data plan. Will give it thought and respond properly when I'm back in WiFi range tonight.

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