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Pete at Home
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/22/lick-from-giraffe-is-poignant-goodbye-for-terminally-ill-man-in-netherlands/?intcmp=obinsite

I found this story curiously touching. Animals sometimes seem to exhibit a remarkable gentleness and sensitivity.

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JoshuaD
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I agree. So when am I going to convince you to stop eating them? [Wink]
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Pete at Home
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About the time you convince them to stop eating each other. [Smile]

But seriously, if I could afford it I could get by on just ostrich. Never heard a warm and fuzzy ostrich story. [Smile]

I won't eat dog, dolfin, human, or giraffe.

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OpsanusTau
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Let's make it explicit: your logical progression here is

Animals can exhibit gentleness and sensitivity

therefore

Pete (and presumably others) should not eat them.

***

I mean you Joshua should eat or not eat whatever you choose. But are there some other steps in that argument? Because if not, it's the same old argument from sentiment, and your sentiment can be an appropriate guide for your own actions if you want to do it that way, but they're not an appropriate guide for anyone else's actions.

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Wayward Son
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I don't agree with that sentiment, Ops. [Wink]
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Pete at Home
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I thought J made a legitimate appeal to emotion, rather than an illegitimate logical argument. What I got was " if you sympathize with them, why do you eat them, to which I said I don't eat the ones I sympathize with. Except maybe cat. (Just kidding!)
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OpsanusTau
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Mmmm. Let me try to rephrase.

Why is it a legitimate appeal to emotion to say "if you sympathize with a living creature, don't eat it when it's dead"?

To me, that appeal to emotion contains some sort of implicit logical argument that of course if you sympathized with and cared about a particular organism you would refrain from eating it when it's dead. And potentially implied also is that if you sympathized with an organism you would of course not kill it.

Spoiler alert, I disagree with both of those statements.

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Grant
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quote:
Originally posted by OpsanusTau:

To me, that appeal to emotion contains some sort of implicit logical argument that of course if you sympathized with and cared about a particular organism you would refrain from eating it when it's dead. And potentially implied also is that if you sympathized with an organism you would of course not kill it.

Spoiler alert, I disagree with both of those statements.

Here's hoping that you never sympathize with me, Op. Bon appetit.
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JoshuaD
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quote:
Ops:: Why is it a legitimate appeal to emotion to say "if you sympathize with a living creature, don't eat it when it's dead"?
That's actually not my position (although, you certainly couldn't have known that by reading this thread, and I don't think we've ever had the discussion before, so I don't mind the mischaracterization).

I think it is generally wrong to kill a living creature needlessly. This means to me that is generally wrong to kill a living creature in order to eat it. I don't have a strong moral opposition to eating an animal once it has died. My opposition is to causing it to die needlessly.

Much more importantly (in the context of our society) and much more strongly, I believe it is wrong to treat animals the way our factory farms do, from beginning to end.

I don't think there is anything inherently immoral in eating an animal that died without you causing it to die (directly or indirectly). I will sometimes eat the last slice of a sausage pizza, for example, if my friend ordered it for himself, didn't order it expecting that I was going to eat any, and the slice would have otherwise been thrown away.

By eating that, I don't cause any animal to be harmed, and so I don't have any problem with it from a moral point of view.

And yes, my response to Pete was a playful appeal to emotion, not a full explanation of the underpinnings of my beliefs. Although, it did point directly at the underpinnings.

My vegetarianism is based in empathy for the animals. They are very much like me, and I don't want to be tortured or eaten. So I don't believe we should torture or eat them.

It is also based on the fact that it is very possible for me to live a healthy and good life without eating animals. If I was starving to death and my choice was effective suicide or killing a fish for sustenance, I would eat the fish. I think hardly anyone in America is facing that sort of choice. (In my experience, vegetarianism is less expensive than eating meat).

The Buddha said this: "All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?" Which provides a good basis for understanding my motivations for being vegetarian.

[ March 25, 2014, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: JoshuaD ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by OpsanusTau:
Mmmm. Let me try to rephrase.

Why is it a legitimate appeal to emotion to say "if you sympathize with a living creature, don't eat it when it's dead"?

To me, that appeal to emotion contains some sort of implicit logical argument that of course if you sympathized with and cared about a particular organism you would refrain from eating it when it's dead. And potentially implied also is that if you sympathized with an organism you would of course not kill it.

Spoiler alert, I disagree with both of those statements.

Got it. And I must admit that if I ever felt personally felt threatened by a chicken or oyster, I would kill without a twinge of conscience, and if hungry, eat! (If I barfed an oyster it would be for aesthetic and not moral reasons.)

But by the same logic, I cannot say that i would not eat anything, even.strips of my own flesh, if fried in teriaki sauce with garlic, parsley, pepper, onion, etc....


". The Buddha said this: "All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life. See yourself in others"

Perhaps the Buddha should have said, fear ranch sauce!

[ March 25, 2014, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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JoshuaD
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"Perhaps the Buddha should have said, fear ranch sauce!"

[LOL]

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